"Live to fight another day" model is ruining boxing.

[Luckybattles]

Seems like yesterday when fighters would turn up the heat late in fights and go for a stoppage when they were close or behind on the cards. I think of fights like Bowe Holyfield, Barerra Morales, and a bunch of others. That was normal. If you were behind, you pressed for the KO in the last few rounds.

Today, it seems that fighters have fully adopted the "LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY" model. A good example would be Keith Thurman and Danny Garcia. In a relatively close fight where no guy has the clear advantage going into the later rounds. Instead of one or both trying to close the show with strong statement, they both choose to coast, not take any chances, and hope to get lucky on the scorecards. Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport. The "I will excite the fans in my next fight" has become the norm and this has deflated boxing of its once exciting charm.

[Enlightened-One]

You need to provide better examples, because I don’t see any justification for your argument.

Can you provide any bouts where the fighters themselves admitted to abiding by your theory?

I’m not sure if Mayweather or Hopkins are even relevant to the point you’re making either.

What is it you’re actually complaining about? Fighters not entertaining you? Fighters not trying to finish strong during the final rounds to gain a decisive victory? Fighters quitting? Fighters not taking enough risks with their health?

Your argument is a total mess, because you’re complaining about too many separate things all at once.

Either way, there’s no “epidemic” and if the sport isn’t exciting enough for you, then stop watching it.

[HomicideHenry]

I understand what you mean.

I don't know if I'd call it "live to fight another day" but I remember guys like Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis having the attitude of "do only enough to win", rather than go all out.

Its become more prevelent in the sport, but I think alot of it is in the styles rather than character--- some men don't dare risk fighting any other way but cautious and smart because they would get exposed. Very few men can actually fight as well as they box.

I think the $$$$ has made alot of people soft, too--- thinking that if fights are close then they can do return bouts later on, etc. which was the mentality of the 1910s where guys coasted with each other never really pressing the issue to create controversy.

You want excitement, though, you're better off watching journeymen and trial horses compete instead of contenders and champions because they've already tasted defeat and got nothing to lose but go for broke.

[Deleted_Scenes]

I suspect that fights from yesteryear, where the losing fighter just goes into survival mode instead of chasing a dramatic late KO, just don't stick in the memory.

People remember drama. Bowe/Holyfield and Barrera/Morales are just two fights. There might well be dozens of examples from the same years where the fighters did coast or stay in survival mode, but guess what, we don't remember those fights as well.

We've also just seen one high profile fight where the losing fighter didn't press for a KO (Mikey). I can't say I blame him too much though. He couldn't make Spence respect his power at any point during the fight, and anytime he did step it up, he was eating counters. The very same weekend, Gabe Rosado sure as shít never gave up chasing a late turnaround.

[Datsue]

I suspect that fights from yesteryear, where the losing fighter just goes into survival mode instead of chasing a dramatic late KO, just don't stick in the memory.

People remember drama. Bowe/Holyfield and Barrera/Morales are just two fights. There might well be dozens of examples from the same years where the fighters did coast or stay in survival mode, but guess what, we don't remember those fights as well.

This. People don't go on about Pacquiao-Barrera II, in which MAB basically came to last twelve rounds, do they?

On the other foot, I do think Garcia's sort of performance has become more common in big fights, simply 'cos of post-weigh in weight-ballooning. More often than not the A side is a bigger fella than the B side even when they're in the same division, even before you factor in fighters gravitating toward particular fighters for pay-days (rather than particular divisions, as used to be the case).

[fightseer]

I can think of Leonard vs Hearns first fight. Angelo Dundee told Sugar Ray between rounds 11/12,, “Your blowing it kid” as he was being outboxed by the 6’1” Hearns. He turned up the heat and caught Hearns and stopped him. Hearns was a dangerous puncher at any weight in his career but at 147 he was a beast. Leonard showed a lot of heart.

[fightseer]

Julio Cesar Chavez sr vs Meldrick Taylor.
Taylor was on his way to a decision victory and the fight was stopped after JCC clipper Taylor and knocked him down, with five seconds left in the fight. The Ref looked into Taylor’s eyes and made a BS stoppage but Chavez got the TKo.

[oogiebe]

Seems like yesterday when fighters would turn up the heat late in fights and go for a stoppage when they were close or behind on the cards. I think of fights like Bowe Holyfield, Barerra Morales, and a bunch of others. That was normal. If you were behind, you pressed for the KO in the last few rounds.

Today, it seems that fighters have fully adopted the "LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY" model. A good example would be Keith Thurman and Danny Garcia. In a relatively close fight where no guy has the clear advantage going into the later rounds. Instead of one or both trying to close the show with strong statement, they both choose to coast, not take any chances, and hope to get lucky on the scorecards. Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport. The "I will excite the fans in my next fight" has become the norm and this has deflated boxing of its once exciting charm.

Generally speaking, I think I get your point. A fighter behind with no hope of a decision win would go all out for a knockout (thereby creating opportunities for the other fighter), rather than just survive with a decision loss. Yes?

[Best Coast]

Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport.

Beg to differ and would like you to give examples of fights where Floyd or B-Hop "pulled out of fights when they were behind on the scorecards".

[lefthook82]

The moral victory of going 12 rounds is too prevalent. I don't know if it is worse now than yesteryear but I know it bothers me when I watch it. Mikey Garcia is an example.

I was hoping corner would pull in around the 9th because it was clear then that he was looking for a moral victory

[Luckybattles]

Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport.

Beg to differ and would like you to give examples of fights where Floyd or B-Hop "pulled out of fights when they were behind on the scorecards".

Mayweather perfected the art of “eff the fans. I’m here to make money. “ Both he and Hopkins were more than content to use avoidance tactics all the way until the final bell. Unless the KO was presented in a silver platter. Hopkins relied on this more as he got older and that is why much of his career is overrated while Mayweather fought this way well through this prime.

[squiggy]

I suspect that fights from yesteryear, where the losing fighter just goes into survival mode instead of chasing a dramatic late KO, just don't stick in the memory.

People remember drama. Bowe/Holyfield and Barrera/Morales are just two fights. There might well be dozens of examples from the same years where the fighters did coast or stay in survival mode, but guess what, we don't remember those fights as well.

This. People don't go on about Pacquiao-Barrera II, in which MAB basically came to last twelve rounds, do they?

Personally, I grouse about that fight all the time. Mexican legend goin' in there and fighting like a total turd.

[Luckybattles]

Maybe but that’s one fight in a career filled with many unforgettable wars and late round dramatics. Also, it was towards the end of his career so i would give MAB a pass.

[KiwiRider]

The moral victory of going 12 rounds is too prevalent. I don't know if it is worse now than yesteryear but I know it bothers me when I watch it. Mikey Garcia is an example.

I was hoping corner would pull in around the 9th because it was clear then that he was looking for a moral victory

Nailed it.
Heck of a lot of pride involved. Even in the small hall bouts, possibly even more so. No one wants to go out like a b*tch in front of his family, friends, fans, team, and peers at ringside.

[Best Coast]

Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport.

Beg to differ and would like you to give examples of fights where Floyd or B-Hop "pulled out of fights when they were behind on the scorecards".

Mayweather perfected the art of “eff the fans. I’m here to make money. “ Both he and Hopkins were more than content to use avoidance tactics all the way until the final bell. Unless the KO was presented in a silver platter. Hopkins relied on this more as he got older and that is why much of his career is overrated while Mayweather fought this way well through this prime.

I can see why you might think that way but Floyd was never a heavy-hitter. He was always first & foremost a slick boxer and is MO was always "hit & dont get hit"!! Floyd was "Pretty Boy" long before he became "Money" Mayweather. At 130 he had some nice stoppages like Genaro, Corrales & Manfreddy but as he moved up in weight he had fewer & fewer KOs. Even a hard-hitter like Roberto Duran had fewer KOs once he left LW & moved up to 154 & 160. Hopkins did have some pop in his punch at 160 but it didnt translate to the higher weights once he started facing super middles & light heavies. He stopped Trinidad & Oscar at 160 and DeLaHoya was B-Hop's LAST career KO despite fighting for another 12 years after Oscar.

[Enlightened-One]

Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport.

Beg to differ and would like you to give examples of fights where Floyd or B-Hop "pulled out of fights when they were behind on the scorecards".

Mayweather perfected the art of “eff the fans. I’m here to make money. “ Both he and Hopkins were more than content to use avoidance tactics all the way until the final bell. Unless the KO was presented in a silver platter. Hopkins relied on this more as he got older and that is why much of his career is overrated while Mayweather fought this way well through this prime.

I can see why you might think that way but Floyd was never a heavy-hitter. He was always first & foremost a slick boxer and is MO was always "hit & dont get hit"!! Floyd was "Pretty Boy" long before he became "Money" Mayweather. At 130 he had some nice stoppages like Genaro, Corrales & Manfreddy but as he moved up in weight he had fewer & fewer KOs. Even a hard-hitter like Roberto Duran had fewer KOs once he left LW & moved up to 154 & 160.

I agree with what you’ve said.

Floyd KO’d 69% of his opponents during the first 35 bouts of his career, when he campaigned at 140lbs or less. He also suffered greatly from fragile hands during the second of half of his career, during a time when he was facing much bigger opponents.

Money May’s knockout-ratio entering his first world title fight against Genaro Hernandez was an impressively high 77%.

Floyd’s ability to stop opponents pretty much ceased from the age of 31 onwards, which is pretty ancient for a fighter that made his pro debut campaigning as a super-featherweight. And he continued boxing competitively until he was 38½ years old. How many veterans can you name that consistently stopped elite-level opposition at that sort of age?

And you also have to take into consideration the calibre of opposition he faced, such as the amount of world champions he’s beaten, especially considering many of them were physically much bigger than himself also.

Put it this way, Artur Beterbiev and Naoya Inoue are currently regarded as two of the sport of boxing’s biggest punchers, with a combined total of 28 KO’s between them, which is only a slightly bigger number than the amount of world champions defeated by Mayweather Jr. (22 during the course of 24 bouts).

Big punchers like GGG and Krusher Kovalev couldn’t stop elite level opposition, so why does Floyd always receive more heat than other fighters do?

Krusher strategy against Hopkins and GGG’s game-plan for the Canelo rematch weren’t criticised by fight fans either.

[Onekrazyrican]

I guess its become a complex subject. Take Magomed Abdusalamov for example. I wish his corner had that "live to fight another day" mindset when he fought Perez. The fight was very entertaining but at some point he was just taking a beating. The crowd was pleased to see him endure the punishment that night. Fight ended people moved on and forgot about the whole thing. The rest of his life changed. He did get a big settlement recently but the damage cant be reversed. Plus not everyone ending up in bad shape gets the same financial outcome.

The "screw the fans" mentality is justified IMO when you see how easy we forget guys like Gerald McLlelan and others. Its one thing to go for it when you have a chance in a competitive fight. Its a whole different situation when its lopsided and you're just taking punishment to make it entertaining. The fans short lived appreciation will not cover the toll it takes on your health.

[Luckybattles]

I guess its become a complex subject. Take Magomed Abdusalamov for example. I wish his corner had that "live to fight another day" mindset when he fought Perez. The fight was very entertaining but at some point he was just taking a beating. The crowd was pleased to see him endure the punishment that night. Fight ended people moved on and forgot about the whole thing. The rest of his life changed. He did get a big settlement recently but the damage cant be reversed. Plus not everyone ending up in bad shape gets the same financial outcome.

The "screw the fans" mentality is justified IMO when you see how easy we forget guys like Gerald McLlelan and others. Its one thing to go for it when you have a chance in a competitive fight. Its a whole different situation when its lopsided and you're just taking punishment to make it entertaining. The fans short lived appreciation will not cover the toll it takes on your health.

Especially when you have a light hitting fighter such as a malagnaggi against a real bruiser such as cotto. It would make no sense for the latter to take a prolonged beating down the stretch. I get that. The problem is when u have Thurman and Danny Garcia in a close fight with not a lot of action and both fight the final round like they are hoping to get lucky with the judges instead of asserting themselves and making a statement to earn a victory for themselves and for fans. That was boxing for a long time but somehow fear got into the sport and suddenly nobody wanted to take a punch

[kbackup408]

Just to throw it out there, boxers are becoming more educated on CTE and the consequences of taking accumulated shots - that Thurman example probably wasn't the best had him winning comfortably going into the last quarter of the fight no need to take a risk !

[Luckybattles]

Just to throw it out there, boxers are becoming more educated on CTE and the consequences of taking accumulated shots - that Thurman example probably wasn't the best had him winning comfortably going into the last quarter of the fight no need to take a risk !

Ok. Makes sense. So what are we supposed to watch now. Light sparring sessions, long exhibitions of posturing and stare downs. And they want the fan to shell out $75 for this ?

[gilgamesh]

Just to throw it out there, boxers are becoming more educated on CTE and the consequences of taking accumulated shots - that Thurman example probably wasn't the best had him winning comfortably going into the last quarter of the fight no need to take a risk !

Ok. Makes sense. So what are we supposed to watch now. Light sparring sessions, long exhibitions of posturing and stare downs. And they want the fan to shell out $75 for this ?

There are still good fights, good fighters, and action fighters out there. You just have to keep an eye out for them.

Francisco Vargas and Orlando Salido are good recent examples of guys that were blood and guts dude that always gave you bang for your buck.

Jarrett Hurd is a guy that it's hard to imagine being in a boring fight. Some guys have more cautious styles than others. Some guys force the fight out of you. Hell Jarrett Hurd was able to draw Lara into a Fight of the Year contender for f*cks sake. If you can get that dramatic a fight out of Lara you're an entertaining fighter.

[caldo2025]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that there’s more intelligence out there and statistical data clearly showing where head trama comes from. The dangers of Boxing are known by these boxers fighting for the sports top purses. As a result, we’re seeing boxers having a tough choice between going all out for a win vs. finishing the fight with their health and mind intact.

Now we’ll see more boxers like Wlad. Wlad made his money and let it all hang out for his last bout to leave their mark. Imagine if Wlad fought like he did against AJ for his whole career? That would have been one heck of a career but would he be able to think and speak clearly 15 years from now? No. He took a beating and you can’t take many of those without being affected forever. So I think it’s just because we are all smarter these days.

[kbackup408]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that there’s more intelligence out there and statistical data clearly showing where head trama comes from. The dangers of Boxing are known by these boxers fighting for the sports top purses. As a result, we’re seeing boxers having a tough choice between going all out for a win vs. finishing the fight with their health and mind intact.

Now we’ll see more boxers like Wlad. Wlad made his money and let it all hang out for his last bout to leave their mark. Imagine if Wlad fought like he did against AJ for his whole career? That would have been one heck of a career but would he be able to think and speak clearly 15 years from now? No. He took a beating and you can’t take many of those without being affected forever. So I think it’s just because we are all smarter these days.

Wlad had to make fundamental changes under Steward, I reckon if he never met him he would be more exciting (and probably stopped more)

[Luckybattles]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that there’s more intelligence out there and statistical data clearly showing where head trama comes from. The dangers of Boxing are known by these boxers fighting for the sports top purses. As a result, we’re seeing boxers having a tough choice between going all out for a win vs. finishing the fight with their health and mind intact.

Now we’ll see more boxers like Wlad. Wlad made his money and let it all hang out for his last bout to leave their mark. Imagine if Wlad fought like he did against AJ for his whole career? That would have been one heck of a career but would he be able to think and speak clearly 15 years from now? No. He took a beating and you can’t take many of those without being affected forever. So I think it’s just because we are all smarter these days.

Yeah. Or tim Bradley. 99% of his career is hardly worth watching except for the one time he decided it was time to give the fans something. That fight with provotnikov is one of the best of the past 10 years. But yeah, if he would have fought ever fight like that who knows where he would be. I guess if people are willing to pay $100 for Mayweather vs Pac,
Then boxing will simply drift into meaningless exhibitions

[Best Coast]

Even worse I've seen fighters pull out of fights when they are behind on the scorecards. Personally, I think most of this started with Mayweather and Hopkins and its now an epidemic in boxing that that threatens the future of the sport.

Beg to differ and would like you to give examples of fights where Floyd or B-Hop "pulled out of fights when they were behind on the scorecards".

Mayweather perfected the art of “eff the fans. I’m here to make money. “ Both he and Hopkins were more than content to use avoidance tactics all the way until the final bell. Unless the KO was presented in a silver platter. Hopkins relied on this more as he got older and that is why much of his career is overrated while Mayweather fought this way well through this prime.

I can see why you might think that way but Floyd was never a heavy-hitter. He was always first & foremost a slick boxer and is MO was always "hit & dont get hit"!! Floyd was "Pretty Boy" long before he became "Money" Mayweather. At 130 he had some nice stoppages like Genaro, Corrales & Manfreddy but as he moved up in weight he had fewer & fewer KOs. Even a hard-hitter like Roberto Duran had fewer KOs once he left LW & moved up to 154 & 160.

I agree with what you’ve said.

Floyd KO’d 69% of his opponents during the first 35 bouts of his career, when he campaigned at 140lbs or less. He also suffered greatly from fragile hands during the second of half of his career, during a time when he was facing much bigger opponents.

Money May’s knockout-ratio entering his first world title fight against Genaro Hernandez was an impressively high 77%.

Floyd’s ability to stop opponents pretty much ceased from the age of 31 onwards, which is pretty ancient for a fighter that made his pro debut campaigning as a super-featherweight. And he continued boxing competitively until he was 38½ years old. How many veterans can you name that consistently stopped elite-level opposition at that sort of age?

And you also have to take into consideration the calibre of opposition he faced, such as the amount of world champions he’s beaten, especially considering many of them were physically much bigger than himself also.

Put it this way, Artur Beterbiev and Naoya Inoue are currently regarded as two of the sport of boxing’s biggest punchers, with a combined total of 28 KO’s between them, which is only a slightly bigger number than the amount of world champions defeated by Mayweather Jr. (22 during the course of 24 bouts).

Big punchers like GGG and Krusher Kovalev couldn’t stop elite level opposition, so why does Floyd always receive more heat than other fighters do?

Krusher strategy against Hopkins and GGG’s game-plan for the Canelo rematch weren’t criticised by fight fans either.

Great points E-O!! Thanks for the input.