Mark Prince's son murdered?

[Air Rodney]

And you wonder why the BNP are starting to make gains in elections? Because people are fed up of being taken for a bloody ride.

Intersting point here.

I live in Leicester which you may or may not be aware is a VERY multi-cultural city with a massive asian community.

Anyway I have many friends and work collegues who are of 1st, 2nd generation UK/Indian or Pakistan blood.

Even some of them have or are seriously thinking of voting for the BNP next time.

wow are things really that bad there?

[jamesmcdonnell]

watch the country turn into a cesspool

Or employers would have to pay decent wages to attract local workers to do such jobs. Countries like Finland and Sweden aren't sucking in massive amounts of immigrants and these countries are much more affluent, efficient and hygenic than Britain. In the main they do their own dirty work. However, they pay and treat their workers properly so there is no problem.

But yes I agree importing cheap foreign labour is clearly the strategy Britain has taken. This is what British business demands and as New Labour does everything to pander to their needs regardless of any broader social consequences this is what the government is allowing. Basically it mimics America which uses Mexicans and other Hispanics as a reserve army of labour. However, I just don't buy the argument that the country would collapse without immigrant labour. I used to live in a pretty isolated virtually all-white part of Britain and the roads were still swept and bins emptied. Basically immigrants are being used to undercut indigenous workers in order to hold down wages.

I have friends from Finland, and Finland does import cheap labour, but being an incredibly xenophobic and racist country, they mainly import labour from the poorer of the scandinavian countries, and let in very few people of colour shall we say. For all it's efficiency and splendid services, I wouldn't want to live in Finland, it has the highest suicide rate in the world after sweden, massive taxes, and a very intolerant society where anything from the norm is very much frowned upon. The Scandanavian countries do have some things we could learn from, but it would mean a quantum shift in most people's thinking, and I don't think the model would work in the densely populated UK. Bear in mind that Finland has an unemployment rate of 8.5% also, almost double ours, and a fraction of our population. They are also a manufacturing based economy relying on electronics for a large proportion of exports.

As for the the roads used to be swept by council bin men (as an example) and wages were actually pretty good, until councils realised that they could save money by employing contractors, who pay their workers shit all. If you are talking about an isolated area, then also, people are going to have far less choice about what jobs they do. In somewhere like london, there are plenty of native born dole scroungers who like smoking weed and wearing their pants by their arse crack who would rather nick your wallet than do a day's work.

However, the reason this happened in the first place, was the reduction in funding to councils from central government, which forced councils to dig into a dwindling pot of money to pay for these services.

Esssentially, the business model and globalisation has taken over in all the western democracies to a large extent, socialism is now dead, and this is the price we pay, rampant capitalism, and a constant flux of people around the globe in search of a better life. C'est La Vie.

[bugs]

watch the country turn into a cesspool

Or employers would have to pay decent wages to attract local workers to do such jobs. Countries like Finland and Sweden aren't sucking in massive amounts of immigrants and these countries are much more affluent, efficient and hygenic than Britain. In the main they do their own dirty work. However, they pay and treat their workers properly so there is no problem.

But yes I agree importing cheap foreign labour is clearly the strategy Britain has taken. This is what British business demands and as New Labour does everything to pander to their needs regardless of any broader social consequences this is what the government is allowing. Basically it mimics America which uses Mexicans and other Hispanics as a reserve army of labour. However, I just don't buy the argument that the country would collapse without immigrant labour. I used to live in a pretty isolated virtually all-white part of Britain and the roads were still swept and bins emptied. Basically immigrants are being used to undercut indigenous workers in order to hold down wages.

Finland is doing well, but it also takies in large numbers of immigrants, which just like here leads to knee jerk sensationalised opinions that they are bringing down society because too many people believe all the media hype around the issue and believe that because it si heavily reported is it more common and more out of control that a logical approach would lead them to believe.

[Loftgroov]

Very good point there about the UK’s unemployment figures. They are basically a fiddle. Hardly anyone seems to be “unemployed” any more, they are always “in education” (even if its one night a week doing some meaningless crap that will lead to nowhere). It just keeps them off the figures.

That is why the Labour government has always had this hell-bent drive to ensure all 16 year olds go on to college, or a YTS scheme (or whatever today’s equivalent is), because otherwise they know they’ll become registered unemployed, and simply end up receiving benefits.

It so important to remember that unemployment figures are merely the registered unemployed. Finland is probably just more honest than we are.

[mickeybeard]

Spot on Loftgroove . Despite constant rhetoric to the contrary (repeat a lie often enough and it becomes believeable) Britain has neither a major skill shortage or a more general shortage of labour.

I can't speak for Yorkshire but, at the very least, certain parts of the country do have skills shoratges. I work in the building trade, and chatting to any small builder highlights their problems finding competant chippies, brickies and the like. There are tradesmen out there, but too many of them have done 13 weeks at a skills school or whatever, and would need to be retrained on site. A consequence of this is that tradesmen are currently earning very good money. All a legacy of the scrapping of apprentiships I'm told (tbh I'm too young to have worked in the industry when apprentiships were about).

Another example: Princess Yaughts, here in Plymouth, advertised for chippies a couple of years back and, after months of adverts, had a handful of applicants. Of those, only a couple passed the bench test. They basically found that all the decent chippies in the area were either: employed by them already, didn't want to work for them (there's probably more money to be made working on site), or had previously worked for them and been let go. They now employ a lot of polish guys and, since it's illegal to pay migrant workers less than home workers, or to make home workers redundant to employ foreign labour, the Polish guys are making the same good money as the English lads. The Polish guys are actually costing them more than home workers, as they have to empoly interpretors, agency fees in this country and Poland, and still pay them the same money. I'm sure the company would've loved to employ local lads - not for any altruistic reasons, but just because it would've saved them some wedge.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Very good point there about the UK’s unemployment figures. They are basically a fiddle. Hardly anyone seems to be “unemployed” any more, they are always “in education” (even if its one night a week doing some meaningless crap that will lead to nowhere). It just keeps them off the figures.

That is why the Labour government has always had this hell-bent drive to ensure all 16 year olds go on to college, or a YTS scheme (or whatever today’s equivalent is), because otherwise they know they’ll become registered unemployed, and simply end up receiving benefits.

It so important to remember that unemployment figures are merely the registered unemployed. Finland is probably just more honest than we are.

So you suppose that it is only in Britain that the government fiddles figures? Jog on mate.....

Finland's population is less than that of greater London, it's a very poor comparison in any case. Much easier to have a high standard of living in a less populous nation.

One thing also worth bearing in mind, is that Britain has a growing number of old people and very few people being born, so has little choice but to import labour. In 20 years time, 40% of the population will be over 50!

[jamesmcdonnell]

Spot on Loftgroove . Despite constant rhetoric to the contrary (repeat a lie often enough and it becomes believeable) Britain has neither a major skill shortage or a more general shortage of labour. There are loads and loads of people either without work or who are chronically underemployed. The harsh reality is that the government's (purposeful) slackness on immigration is really about providing British Capital with a constant supply of cheap, disposable and sometimes desperate labour.

Basically this is bad news for working class people as it allows employers to beat down wages, offer poor conditions and sometimes employ workers through the 'black economy'. It is called 'dilution of labour' and is really the oldest trick in the book. Without being able to use reserve armies of labour employers would have to offer improved terms and conditions to home workers. This would, of course, mean less profits for business and a few going out of business (although nowhere as many as they would have you believe). Essentially the only way to understand the current 'immigration crisis' is to ignore all the hysteria, lies and double-speak around it and to place it in a political and economic framework. When you do it makes perfect sense. The consequences for ordinary people are often extremely damaging but essentially it is dead easy to understand.

However, whether you think the main purpose of government is to secure increasing profits for Capital or alternatively to ensure good working and social conditions for ordinary people is another matter. Basically New Labour has sided firmly on the side of the former rather than the latter. Rather ironic as the Labour Party was originally formed to defend and promote the conditions of ordinary working people. Perhaps 'The Capital Party' would be a better name for them nowadays....

Yes. This is sad but true. The idea of socialism appears to be dead. It's bizzare really, surely the whole purpose of ANY political system should be to maintain the security of the nation and make it's citizens healthy, rather than increase the wealth of those who are already wealthy, and who already wield power.

I guess it has always been so though, human's are by nature greedy, and those who are greediest rise to the top, and have influence over government. The other alternative is a lack of personal freedoms, which nobody likes.

Governments are forced to kow-tow to business, espcially in an age where media companies are so huge. Do you reckon Tony Blair would have come to power if he threatened to legislate against big business and place restrictions on them. Not a hope in hell, Rupert Murdoch's media machine would have absolutely annihilated him, just like he did the other Labour campaigns before. Blair went cap in hand to Murdoch and made assurances that 'New Labour' would be the friend of big business.

[Loftgroov]

One spin-off of the governments drive to keep everyone in education that really annoys me is that too many people now consider themselves “above” doing certain kinds of work. I’ve line managed assistants who look at you like you’re taking the piss if you ask them to do clerical work, filing, arrange meetings etc. I don’t ask them in any sort of demeaning way, but its work that needs doing and they are in the most appropriate position to do it. They all want to be managers from day 1, despite being utterly incapable.

10 to 15 years back if you had e.g. a degree you were almost unquestionably a bright spark (at least academically) or you wouldn’t have even got in to a University let alone read a subject for 3+ years.

Today any moron it seems can get on some degree course, somewhere, and end up with BA or B.Sc after their name. This of course also devalues "degrees" for all those who do have one in a respectable subject from a respectable university. Kite Flying from Portsmouth Polytechnic doesn't count in my opinion.

Of course these individuals then are under the impression they’re set for big things, and there are lots of them. Doing a decent, hard, honest days work is completely beyond these people, hence trades like plumbing, carpentry etc are left to the Polish and Ukrainians who appear to be happy to do and earn some money - and viewed as for "losers" by the white middle class dunces fresh out of Uni.

The attitudes of some of those in their early 20s today beggars belief, and I say that as someone who is only 26 himself! I used to do filing, ALL DAY, as a temp for a while when I left university in need of cash, and then embarked on a decent career gaining experience as I went along. Some of the people I have interviewed in recent times I wouldn’t task with shovelling shit correctly let alone becoming a graduate engineer, but seemingly this is all the domestic stock available….

Worrying.

[mickeybeard]

We should train our own. Properly... Importing labour is a short-term and short-sighted alternative.

Agreed on the training, however boats and buildings still need to be built now. The building industry in particular, if the trade press is to be believed, is short of skills all over the country. It's our own fault (or at least it's the fault of successive governments we've elected) but we've put ourselves in a position were short-term fixes are the only ones available. The challenge now is to put in place measures so that properly trained, homegrown tradesmen do start to trickle through, and that employers are encouraged to train them rather than assume that fully trained tradesmen will always be on tap from Eastern Europe.

The same goes for unskilled labour really. We've raised a generation that has seen this work done for not much money, and by someone else. You won't change that culture overnight, from either the employer or potential employee point of view, by sticking £1/hour on manual jobs. There needs to be a change in the general perception of the worth of doing unskilled work, as opposed to sitting on your arse picking up benefits. Quite how you go about doing that, while still supporting people that are having a hard time of things and genuinely need help, is mind-boggling complex.

[Loftgroov]

I agree we should ideally train our own but, as I mention above, that works on the assumption “our own” are willing to be trained. Its easier to go around a council estate dealing drugs and being a prick than it is to learn a trade.

The more “willing” are those coming in, not the dross already here.

[Old bones Ian]

trial ended today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6261024.stm

[KOJOE90]

And you wonder why the BNP are starting to make gains in elections? Because people are fed up of being taken for a bloody ride.

Intersting point here.

I live in Leicester which you may or may not be aware is a VERY multi-cultural city with a massive asian community.

Anyway I have many friends and work collegues who are of 1st, 2nd generation UK/Indian or Pakistan blood.

Even some of them have or are seriously thinking of voting for the BNP next time.

Because people are reactionary morons that don't realise what the BNP stand for.
They want an armed citizenry, national service, reintroduce corporal and capital punishment, revoking people's rights to vote, they are huge believers in free trade, they'll restrict foreign aid, they want women to stay at home, they deny the holocaust, banning Muslims from flying in and around the U.K, re-criminalising homosexuality............

To be honest livingstone, I think it is mainly hot air due to fustration, I doubt very much that any did or would vote for the BNP when it came to actually putting the X in the box.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Its a tough one. My views have changed somewhat over the past 5 years, Britian had a debt to the commonwealth and to India/Pakistan especially
for their heroic and selfless sacrifice in helping Britian win two world wars
with the largest volunteer armies that have ever been assembled.

It is morally dishonest to now say racism has just arrived with Labour lax immigration policy. Racism - violent racism has always been here, especially against people from the Indian subcontinent.

Nowadays we have a combustible mix of militant islam, a lax immigration
policy and a losing war in the middle east where young men and women are coming back in flag draped coffins every week.

However, if we had no immigration we wouldn't have an operational army in this day and age, we wouldn't have an operational NHS. We begged Spain and the Phillipennes for their qulified nurses which we got via signed treaties from the said countires at great cost to the treasury.

It isn't ONE reason why the country is going down the pan at the moment
add the economy which is run to be 'competitive' against the growing
tiger economies of Asia thus low wages for low skilled workers. Add the indigineous unskilled working class who have the cushion of a social benefit system that makes working for the low pay and temporary security of those jobs madness.

[Captain Hook]

Prince was in the papers a year or so ago because a member of his family was murdered, is this not the same story?

Do you remember Mark Prince against Michael....?

It was in 1997 and both were out on their feet when Prince KOd him...

[Captain Hook]

I've just googled it and i thought so, Kiyan Prince was murdered in May 2006.

So where has this come from, a new twist to the story?

[Coco]

I've just googled it and i thought so, Kiyan Prince was murdered in May 2006.

So where has this come from, a new twist to the story?

Not a twist, but at long last the murderer has been tried and convicted

[KOJOE90]

I've just googled it and i thought so, Kiyan Prince was murdered in May 2006.

So where has this come from, a new twist to the story?

Check the date this thread was started. It's been revived due to the case going to court.

[Captain Hook]

aah I'm with you now, read all but the last 3/4 posts........thought it was familiar.

at least he's been done....

[harrygreb]

i agree that because of britains history of colonisation and the benefits of this in various parts of the world we can have no argument about allowing tthe members of those nations into our country. however, we never colonised eastern europe or russia or any of its neighbours. so in my view
the peoples of those nations should not be allowed freedom to live here just because of a shared membership of the EEC.