Is Anthony Joshua among the top ten HWs since 2000 ?

[oogiebe]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

[ValMar]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

[oogiebe]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

I'll have to give it some more thought. I guess around 7/8?

[Onetimeonly]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

His win over Mercer as an old man is miles better than anything vitali did.

[ValMar]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

I'll have to give it some more thought. I guess around 7/8?

We will never agree about Vitali, but this is not a tragic situation.

[oogiebe]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

His win over Mercer as an old man is miles better than anything vitali did.

No doubt. It's amazing how many times we've seen this debate all over the forum.

[Onetimeonly]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

I'll have to give it some more thought. I guess around 7/8?

We will never agree about Vitali, but this is not a tragic situation.

It's factual that his resume is weak as hell for a fighter of his talent. It's also factual that Holmes resume is much better than wlads whose is much better than vitalis. Not even debatable. Thinking that vitali would beat many more accomplished fighters I would call an educated opinion that has zero bearing on any historical rankings. He never beat a candidate for the all time top 100 and people on here call him the goat. It's outlandish.

[Thunder and Lightning]

People spontaneously mention names in almost a Tourette’s Syndrome style manner, as if to boast about their boxing knowledge, but if they were really knowledgeable and understood timelines, it’ll be clear they’re talking nonsense!

It’s like saying that Vitali’s resume is utter garbage because he never faced Muhammad Ali! FFS!

Review the boxers that were competing and considered as top-ten world-rated fighters during Vitali’s period of activity, when he was still competing (i.e. not retired).

Here are the facts:

• David Haye 'turned down' a fight against Vitali Klitschko in favour of a fight with Dereck Chisora. I'm pretty sure Haye also turned down the Vitali bout in favour of facing his brother Wladimir.

• Vitali had already retired by the time his brother faced Alexander Povetkin.

• Vitali was retired by the time when Hasim Rahman was on the world scene. Wladimir had already signed-up for the Rahman bout, when Vitali came out of retirement to face The RING's second-best heavyweight in 2008, which was Samuel Peter.

• Wladimir faced Chagaev, during a time when Vitali was defending his WBC title against unbeaten opposition (i.e. Chris Arreola).

• Vitali was retired when Nikolay Valuev arrived on the world scene, with the Russian retiring shortly after ‘Dr. Ironfist’ made his ring return. Apparently Vitali did try to make that bout. but Valuev wasn't interested (Dr. Ironfist's words).

• Wladimir had already beaten Ibragimov and Thompson before Vitali made his comeback in 2008.

• It's important to note that when Vitali came out of retirement in 2008, he faced The RING's second-best heavyweight in 2008, which was Samuel Peter.

• People also forget that Odlanier Solis was perceived as a real threat to Vitali Klitschko prior to their bout, but the Cuban was decimated inside a single round by ‘Dr. Ironfist’.

If you’re going to challenge me, do your research, don’t bark some random words that bear no relation to reality whatsoever! All you’re doing is highlighting your own lack of knowledge! FFS!

Oh my god! Im not going to do this ”challenge me” ”Bark words” is this your goddamn job!

The question was Vitalis accomplishments in the hall of fame and the point is he didnt fight the best (ie Wlad) and didnt clean out the division and there are 1000 excuses as to why some valid some not but the point remains he didnt.
I get youre a fan of this guy and thats great he was a very good fighter but do you honestly think he is hall of fame worthy just based on statistics having not beat a single great or even very good fighter?

[ValMar]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

I'll have to give it some more thought. I guess around 7/8?

We will never agree about Vitali, but this is not a tragic situation.

It's factual that his resume is weak as hell for a fighter of his talent. It's also factual that Holmes resume is much better than wlads whose is much better than vitalis. Not even debatable. Thinking that vitali would beat many more accomplished fighters I would call an educated opinion that has zero bearing on any historical rankings. He never beat a candidate for the all time top 100 and people on here call him the goat. It's outlandish.

All of you forget a very important thing (intentionally or not). During the Holmes era, the Cubans and Eastern European boxers did not exist at pro-boxing. I would bet on my life that Teofilo Stevenson would have destroyed Holmes, easily.
Anyway, this is off topic.

[Onetimeonly]

I agree with EO, at least 90 %, considering Vitali's career. As I know, he had never ducked any fighter. I remember some rumours about potential fight against Valuev, but a few persons know what happened, and who was guilty because the fight had never happened.
I accept that it has been pretty weak HW era, but Holmes' reign has not been better, and almost noone blamed Holmes because of that.

I can not agree with EO about Solis. He had not been decimated by Vitali, he had lost because of injury.

Holmes had Norton; Shavers; even Cooney amongst others. Vitali never came close to those kinds of wins. Vitali was a victim of this era, but it doesn't change anything.

.........And, what do you think where is Vitali's position (HW, since 2000) ?

I'll have to give it some more thought. I guess around 7/8?

We will never agree about Vitali, but this is not a tragic situation.

It's factual that his resume is weak as hell for a fighter of his talent. It's also factual that Holmes resume is much better than wlads whose is much better than vitalis. Not even debatable. Thinking that vitali would beat many more accomplished fighters I would call an educated opinion that has zero bearing on any historical rankings. He never beat a candidate for the all time top 100 and people on here call him the goat. It's outlandish.

All of you forget a very important thing (intentionally or not). During the Holmes era, the Cubans and Eastern European boxers did not exist at pro-boxing. I would bet on my life that Teofilo Stevenson would have destroyed Holmes, easily.
Anyway, this is off topic.

Yet it was a much stronger era than the one with them. Teofelio was a great fighter.

[Thomastearns]

It's difficult to place Vitali because a bit like Steve Collins http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/645,
his record is simply fabulous, if lacking in star victories.

I believe the general feeling in the UK around the time of the Haye fight was that he was the better of the two brothers. Difficult to speculate the outcome between fighters of different eras, but in their own era the Klitschko's were as boringly dominant as the snooker player Steve Davis was in his. No mean achievement. Ask anyone.

So I have no arguments with those who place Vitali Klitschko at no 1 since 2000. If others favour Wladimir or Lennox that's understandable too.

We will never know for sure because all we got was Lennox Lewis v Vitali Klitschko and no amount of money could persuade Lewis to a rematch. The Klitschko's never said who was the better brother, even in sparring, but we all know who had the better chin.

Also, until either Wilder or Fury face Anthony Joshua, if they ever do, we can't be too sure of where they all stand in regard to each other. Boxing politics is now a huge problem in our sport preventing far too many fights.

No other sport operates like this.

[jamamb]

How can anyone put Wilder, Joshua or Fury in the top 5 when they haven't even proven who's the best current heavyweight. Much less #1 or top 3 since 2000. WOW.

i get what your saying, but even if we rank len, wlad, and vitali ahead, who is the next guy to rank above them?

[Onetimeonly]

Collins is much more accomplished than vitali.

[Enlightened-One]

People spontaneously mention names in almost a Tourette’s Syndrome style manner, as if to boast about their boxing knowledge, but if they were really knowledgeable and understood timelines, it’ll be clear they’re talking nonsense!

It’s like saying that Vitali’s resume is utter garbage because he never faced Muhammad Ali! FFS!

Review the boxers that were competing and considered as top-ten world-rated fighters during Vitali’s period of activity, when he was still competing (i.e. not retired).

Here are the facts:

• David Haye 'turned down' a fight against Vitali Klitschko in favour of a fight with Dereck Chisora. I'm pretty sure Haye also turned down the Vitali bout in favour of facing his brother Wladimir.

• Vitali had already retired by the time his brother faced Alexander Povetkin.

• Vitali was retired by the time when Hasim Rahman was on the world scene. Wladimir had already signed-up for the Rahman bout, when Vitali came out of retirement to face The RING's second-best heavyweight in 2008, which was Samuel Peter.

• Wladimir faced Chagaev, during a time when Vitali was defending his WBC title against unbeaten opposition (i.e. Chris Arreola).

• Vitali was retired when Nikolay Valuev arrived on the world scene, with the Russian retiring shortly after ‘Dr. Ironfist’ made his ring return. Apparently Vitali did try to make that bout. but Valuev wasn't interested (Dr. Ironfist's words).

• Wladimir had already beaten Ibragimov and Thompson before Vitali made his comeback in 2008.

• It's important to note that when Vitali came out of retirement in 2008, he faced The RING's second-best heavyweight in 2008, which was Samuel Peter.

• People also forget that Odlanier Solis was perceived as a real threat to Vitali Klitschko prior to their bout, but the Cuban was decimated inside a single round by ‘Dr. Ironfist’.

If you’re going to challenge me, do your research, don’t bark some random words that bear no relation to reality whatsoever! All you’re doing is highlighting your own lack of knowledge! FFS!

Oh my god! Im not going to do this ”challenge me” ”Bark words” is this your goddamn job!

The question was Vitalis accomplishments in the hall of fame and the point is he didnt fight the best (ie Wlad) and didnt clean out the division and there are 1000 excuses as to why some valid some not but the point remains he didnt.
I get youre a fan of this guy and thats great he was a very good fighter but do you honestly think he is hall of fame worthy just based on statistics having not beat a single great or even very good fighter?

I’m not a fan of Klitschko’s. I don’t dislike him either.

However, I am a fan of the truth and will challenge those that make claims they can’t defend.

I’m not making up excuses. Fact check my claims, each and every single one of them, and prove me wrong.

Better still, justify your own assertions that I disproved.

I’m a nerd, I educate myself prior to expressing an opinion. So you’ll surely be frustrated when you realise that everything I’ve written is the truth - not excuses.

You might even apologise once you’ve realised this.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. I only ever challenged your inaccurate claims (not your personal opinion).

You can’t criticise Vitali Klitschko for failing to face certain fighters that were either only on the world scene when he’d retired or had actually rejected opportunities to face him.

[oogiebe]

Oh Lord, get off your high horse!!! Who made you defender of the noble?!

[Enlightened-One]

Oh Lord, get off your high horse!!! Who made you defender of the noble?!

Fact check what I’ve written.

It seems the truth upsets people. They shouldn’t be so sensitive to real world easily verifiable facts.

[oogiebe]

Oh Lord, get off your high horse!!! Who made you defender of the noble?!

Fact check what I’ve written.

It seems the truth upsets people. They shouldn’t be so sensitive to real world easily verifiable facts.

Your truth, isn't it? You go off like this every time someone disagrees with you and pushes back. You are tiresome at times, EO.

[jamamb]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

[oogiebe]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

While I agree with you, it seems that others can.

[Onetimeonly]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

That's all that matters and I'd bet 50 heavyweights since 2000 have a better win than vitali.

[ValMar]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

That's all that matters and I'd bet 50 heavyweights since 2000 have a better win than vitali.

You really exaggerate, this is becoming bizarre.

[Onetimeonly]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

That's all that matters and I'd bet 50 heavyweights since 2000 have a better win than vitali.

You really exaggerate, this is becoming bizarre.

It's always bizarre when people defend vitalis resume. It's Corrie Sanders man. Anybody that beat rahman, old holy field, Ruiz, chagaev, wilder, fury, wlad, Sanders himself, etc...50 might be an exaggeration because of the timeline, but it's definitely 30 or 40.

[oogiebe]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

That's all that matters and I'd bet 50 heavyweights since 2000 have a better win than vitali.

You really exaggerate, this is becoming bizarre.

It's always bizarre when people defend vitalis resume. It's Corrie Sanders man. Anybody that beat rahman, old holy field, Ruiz, chagaev, wilder, fury, wlad, Sanders himself, etc...50 might be an exaggeration because of the timeline, but it's definitely 30 or 40.

100%. "what might have been" isn't part of the record and can't be counted. I'd be curious how long the list of folks who in fact do have better wins is. But that's for another thread.

[Onetimeonly]

even if someone tried to fight the best possible, i cant rate them for fights they never had.

That's all that matters and I'd bet 50 heavyweights since 2000 have a better win than vitali.

You really exaggerate, this is becoming bizarre.

It's always bizarre when people defend vitalis resume. It's Corrie Sanders man. Anybody that beat rahman, old holy field, Ruiz, chagaev, wilder, fury, wlad, Sanders himself, etc...50 might be an exaggeration because of the timeline, but it's definitely 30 or 40.

100%. "what might have been" isn't part of the record and can't be counted. I'd be curious how long the list of folks who in fact do have better wins is. But that's for another thread.

Dude, all-time it might be 500. Guys like Garcia that beat Norton and Martin over Witherspoon. Hell it might be 1000!

[jamamb]

i got to at least 15 within a few minutes, just off the top of my head and not browsing boxrec, thats just since 2000. and most of these guys with better wins dont get ranked historically at all