Would Muhammad Ali be successful today?

[HomicideHenry]

I don't want to appear to be ganging up on you Homi, but you really need to watch a few fights of Ali's including:

-Ernie Terrell (6'6")
-Cleveland Williams
-Sonny Liston I
-George Foreman
-Duke Sabedong (6'6" 225LBS)
-Charlie Powell (6'4" 225 LBS)

And really watch what Ali could do to a man in the ring.

Powell was a football player who became a boxer. Sabedong certainly was nothing more than a journeyman. Williams was shot when Ali fought him & he wasn't quite a skillful man to begin with. Liston had long arms, but was actually shorter than Ali. Terrell was nothing special. Foreman, certainly would have been problematic--- had he had a mind (at that time) for strategy and paced himself but even at that Foreman was also 6'3".

[HomicideHenry]

https://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html

Do some computation. 6'3" versus 6'9" is quite striking indeed. Then combine the fact that size has similar skillset and speed, as well as power and athleticism.

The last time a man 6'3" and under was the undisputed world heavyweight champion--- was Evander Holyfield and that was 20+ years ago.

This is no case of athlete's being less than their past counterparts. It's the fact that physics--- eventually--- will work against smaller men when they encounter larger men who can generate not only leverage but velocity comparable to their own.

If it was simply a matter of size I'd be on your side--- but we're not dealing with just size differentials. It's everything else that nullifies an individual like Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, etc.

[oogiebe]

Powell was a football player who became a boxer. Sabedong certainly was nothing more than a journeyman. Williams was shot when Ali fought him & he wasn't quite a skillful man to begin with. Liston had long arms, but was actually shorter than Ali. Terrell was nothing special. Foreman, certainly would have been problematic--- had he had a mind (at that time) for strategy and paced himself but even at that Foreman was also 6'3".

Williams wasn't as done as was said. Terrell was better than you think, obviously. I can see there's no convincing you to reconsider. Foreman in his prime would crush a lot of these guys today. So would Liston.

[jamamb]

so homi how many 6'7+ hws with skill and power are there now

[oogiebe]

so homi how many 6'7+ hws with skill and power are there now

One with power and one with skill. Great point!

[HomicideHenry]

Williams wasn't as done as was said. Terrell was better than you think, obviously. I can see there's no convincing you to reconsider. Foreman in his prime would crush a lot of these guys today. So would Liston.

That's your viewpoint. Williams was 13-8 (from Ali onwards) and virtually every boxing historian will attest he was a better fighter prior to his gunshot wound. Besides, he was only 6'3".

Terrell, despite being 6'6".... Lost to not just Muhammad Ali but also to Chuck Wepner, Manuel Ramos, Thad Spencer, Cleveland Williams (previously mentioned), Wayne Bethea, etc. His best wins? Arguably Bob Foster & Doug Jones, two men who were light heavyweights. Some of his "wins" were also controversial.

Foreman... No argument there, because power oftentimes is the deciding factor in heavyweight fights; punchers love big men, because they are big targets: however stylists are not so comfortable with such men because they rob the smaller, faster men of the same attributes they love to utilize... But the point is Ali never fought no good/great big man who was skillful, powerful, and athletic. He never fought someone who was a combination of those things.

[Onetimeonly]

If you honestly think Terrell was that good, or that Fury has no power--- you're absolutely bonkers.

Yes, I'm bonkers.

[HomicideHenry]

Fury loves to box. He seldom uses his power. But, on the occasions he has used it--- men either fall or back the hell away. If one rewatches the Wilder fight, whenever Fury threw simple one-two's and body shots Wilder backed wayyyy up. He obviously felt it. A man 250-260+ pounds is going to hurt you even with these simple punches.

[oogiebe]

Fury loves to box. He seldom uses his power. But, on the occasions he has used it--- men either fall or back the hell away. If one rewatches the Wilder fight, whenever Fury threw simple one-two's and body shots Wilder backed wayyyy up. He obviously felt it. A man 250-260+ pounds is going to hurt you even with these simple punches.

Wilder's balance sucks which is why he's pushed back when punched. Fury doesn't have power to match his size. His power is unextraordinary.

[HomicideHenry]

Besides... every man Fury has fought... who stands roughly 6'3" and weighs under 230... All have fallen... So power differentials & pain resistance is different between small heavyweights and larger ones more so than ever.

[Wee Tommy]

This is possibly the worst thread on here since Wilt vs Ali.

Ffs just watch Ali in action...there were plenty of big tall and strong guys around back then it’s just that the best fighters were Ali, Frazier and Foreman, it had fück all to do with ‘size’ it was about skill, heart, toughness, speed and natural power. Foreman would utterly decimate the heavyweights of today. And Ali would either outbox or out tough any of them.

Any of those three would have the option of weighing whatever they liked between 220-240lbs in this era of ‘supplements’ and the knowledge of mass building. Myself I’ve seen two professional boxers train their way up the weights and still be able to fight hard and I’m talking lighter weight guys going all the way to 16-19 stone. Lifting heavy weights, a ton of foods/supplements and steroids really can do this to a person in a matter of years.

There are some utterly ludicrous posts in this sham of a thread but I shouldn’t be surprised.

[HomicideHenry]

the Ali myth just will not die... the most overrated, over hyped fighter of any weight class of all time...

[elmersalsa]

the Ali myth just will not die... the most overrated, over hyped fighter of any weight class of all time...

In somewhat overrated? Yes. But, if we look at the great Muhammad Ali's accomplishments, we cannot deny that he was great. This is one of the greatest boxers ever pound per pound that ever lived. A top 10 pound per pound great and probably, in the eyes of many, the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. There's no doubt about that.

[HomicideHenry]

One of the pound for pound greats? No.

I can name twenty, forty, possibly fifty men ahead of Ali in that regard. Heavyweights, theoretically, can beat any man in the world--- but their accomplishments do not match those of smaller, greater athlete's who get titles in multiple weight divisions. Heavyweights also have longer careers than their lighter counterparts. So it's true brilliance seeing what smaller athlete's can do in the small window they have.

As for the "all-time" heavyweight remark. That's subjective. That's speculative. Personally I think Larry Holmes was better than Ali. I think Evander Holyfield is also better. I think it's also probable Ali couldn't beat the likes of Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko Brothers, and possibly the current crop of heavyweights today in the top three spots--- though I'd bank more on Fury than AJ & Wilder because the Englishman is basically a plodder who fights in a straight line and Wilder is absolutely reckless.

[elmersalsa]

One of the pound for pound greats? No.

I can name twenty, forty, possibly fifty men ahead of Ali in that regard. Heavyweights, theoretically, can beat any man in the world--- but their accomplishments do not match those of smaller, greater athlete's who get titles in multiple weight divisions. Heavyweights also have longer careers than their lighter counterparts. So it's true brilliance seeing what smaller athlete's can do in the small window they have.

As for the "all-time" heavyweight remark. That's subjective. That's speculative. Personally I think Larry Holmes was better than Ali. I think Evander Holyfield is also better. I think it's also probable Ali couldn't beat the likes of Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko Brothers, and possibly the current crop of heavyweights today in the top three spots--- though I'd bank more on Fury than AJ & Wilder because the Englishman is basically a plodder who fights in a straight line and Wilder is absolutely reckless.

Well, that's may be your opinion, HomicideHenry and I respect that. But, if we look at his accomplishments, he was a tremendous fighter that faced and beat the very best heavyweights and light-heavyweights of HIS ERA.

Some of them, he beat TWICE: Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis, Ernie Terrell, Doug Jones, Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, Zora Folley, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Ron Lyle.

I believe that he never beat a prime Smokin'Joe Frazier. And I believe that Ken Norton beat him three times. Jimmy Young gave him a boxing lesson. But, that doesn't diminish his accomplishments one iota. He was the first man to win the Heavyweight Championship three times. He had a great longevity. He did great after his prime years. Many fighters after their prime years, ain't no good anymore. Ali after his best years at his peak (1964-67), (some say he was still prime when he fought Frazier in the Fight of the Century), was still very good. Did the exile helped him or not? I don't know. Could have he better in his legacy if there was no three year exile? I don't know, either. But what he did inside the ring, IN HIS TIME, was remarkable.

I don't consider him as the best boxer ever by any means. But, to my own opinion, he is a top 10 pound per pound great, and the greatest heavyweight boxer ever.

[HomicideHenry]

Well that's why boxing is certainly more interesting to discuss than other sports. Theres over 130 variables to consider. Nobody can ever be certain about anything, when you have the human element attached to it.

I'm not really knocking his career. He is something of a measuring stick by which other fighters are compared, fairly or unfairly. He was something paradoxical in his first career--- and unanswered questions were answered (more or less) in his second career.

I do think some (if not many) of his wins ought to have asterisks by them. Context is everything. That being said, yes, he "came out on top" much in the same way Ray Leonard came out on top over Duran, Hagler, Leonard.

That being said, I don't rate him highly in the p4p sense. Off the top of my head: Langford, Duran, Robinson, Armstrong, Toney, Charles, Tunney, Greb, Pep, Griffith, Walker, Hopkins, Conn, Jofre, Gans, Nelson, Pacquiao, Moore, Leonard, Hearns, Napoles, Ross, Benitez, Tiger, Basilio--- you get the point.

[Onetimeonly]

Holy field and Holmes were not bigger than Ali, so both would be equally useless against.....Ah it's a waste of time. Keep clowning yourself.

[Controversial]

Ali had a fantastic career but he wasn't unbeatable and he looked very ordinary in some fights. He never threw a body punch in his life and was in his fair share of controversial wins. He would have success but I also think the naturally bigger guys of today would pose him more problems than a lot of the smaller guys he fought. The first version of Ali before his exile would probably have more success as his speed and movement would be an advantage.

[keithmoonhangover]

Short answer: hell yes.
Can't believe we even have to discuss this.

Love homicides comment "Look at the likes of David Haye, James Toney, Roy Jones, Tomasz Adamek, Steve Cunningham, etc--- all similar in size and all came up short. "

Come frikkin on. We are really comparing these guys to Ali?
How is Jones and Toney similar in size anyway?
How did Roy Jones come up short? He fought one fight at heavyweight and weighed 193, and guess what? He won.

Pudgy Chris Byrd had a lot of success at heavyweight and he was nowhere near the fighter Ali was.
Look at Wilder. Guy is not outweighed in every fight and they can't beat him. No where near the fighter Ali was.

You have to factor in how good someone was. Scales and tape measures don't win fights. Ali was light years better than any heavyweight today. There is no way that anyone of these guys could handle his speed.

Is this some late April Fools joke?

This.

[Ambling Alp II]

When Byrd & Jones & Toney fought at heavyweight... The division was even worse than the 1980s... Hence their minute success, and even some of their "wins" ought to have an asterisk by it.

Oquendo & Golota, for example, were robbed against Byrd. Byrd's win over Vitality was a fluke, and of course he lost twice against Vladimir.

Jones... don't get me started... He fought the weakest possible guy... And the referee still have him every advantage... He never fought heavyweight again--- and I think it's obvious as to why, he knew he couldn't beat anyone else in the top ten. What he did, in truth, was no more significant than Harold Johnson beating Tom McNeeley, and hundreds of other examples. What was commonplace at one time, is seen as special now.

In terms of size yes we are comparing. And I'd argue that Adamek's accomplishments at 175 & 195, and Toney's accomplishments from 147-195 certainly are comparable or bypassing of Ali's accomplishments at one weight class. Haye (retrospectively) is a top five all-time cruiserweight. Jones (retrospectively) is a top five all-time light heavyweight. So they are all equally or comparable greats to Ali.

Regardless, no man (no matter his skills) 6'3" & 215 pounds or smaller is doing anything with guys 6'6", 6'7", 6'8", 6'9" who have similar skills & abilities. Period. I'm reminded of Tyson Fury after the Seferi fight saying it's pointless fighting "15 stone men" (210 pounds). And in this day and age that's correct.

I absolutely love Rocky Marciano and others--- and it breaks my heart admitting that they couldn't beat a Deontay Wilder--- but there comes a point when you have to stop "hero worshipping" and get into reality. Ali was not Superman, and wasn't anywhere close to it. He had his flaws. He had his limitations--- he just never faced them.

He would face them against modern heavyweights and unfortunately for those who lick his ass, Ali would be flying around the ring like Apollo Creed against Ivan Drago.

Hard to even know where to start with homicide, he has said so many stupid things.

Yes the division was worse when toney and Jones fought heavyweights than the 1980s. Guess what, it's worse now than it was in the 1980s.

Adamek and toney's career are not comparbale to Ali's. That's absurd.
They were also much smaller guys who tried to move up.

Maybe m faovrite:
"Regardless, no man (no matter his skills) 6'3" & 215 pounds or smaller is doing anything with guys 6'6", 6'7", 6'8", 6'9" who have similar skills & abilities. Period. I'm reminded of Tyson Fury after the Seferi fight saying it's pointless fighting "15 stone men" (210 pounds). And in this day and age that's correct."

The fighters now done have similar skills to Ali. They aren't remotely close. Watch the frikkin fights.

We have to away from the weight and height nonsense. Talk about speed, power, chin, stamina, defense, jabs , hooks, uppercuts. straight right hands, combinations, accuracy. Those are the things that really counts. Not he scale and the tape measure.

Tyson Fury is a joke compared to Ali. A complete joke. Ali would absolutely toy with him.

Ali would be flying around the ring like Apollo Creed against modern heavyweight. How utterly stupid.

[DrDuke]

Size is important, of course, but Ali's size isn't critically small for the today's standards. And Ali was levels above current belt-holders Joshua and Wilder. Joshua isn't fluid enough for Ali, he can be tricked with speed and movement. And Wilder can't box at all. Only Fury is really phenomenal today. Well, Usyk is probably too, but he hasn't stepped in the ring at the HWs yet. By the way, it'll be interesting to be back to this topic in the case of Usyk becoming the champ.

[Caractacus]

I don't think he would have recieved the same amount of attention that he did back in the 1960's and 1970's.
it was a lot simpler time back then.

[oogiebe]

I don't think he would have recieved the same amount of attention that he did back in the 1960's and 1970's.
it was a lot simpler time back then.

I lived and it was just as crazy back then. You had the cold war; DNC Riots in 1968; civil rights; anti war protests; Watergate; MLK Assassination; RFK Assassination; and other social upheavals. Read up on your history Caract!

[Caractacus]

I lived and it was just as crazy back then. You had the cold war; DNC Riots in 1968; civil rights; anti war protests; Watergate; MLK Assassination; RFK Assassination; and other social upheavals. Read up on your history Caract!

me too, but the lines were a lot more defined due to the Cold war and there wernt so many people living on the planet back then to make things stressfull.

[dalcumly]

When comparing heavyweights from the past I've always felt that for every ' generation' you have to add on some height and weight for natural physical development the same way as average heights have increased. For example Jack Dempsey was a big man in the 1920's at 6'1". The average man was around 5'7". So if we say the average man today is around 5' 9" then Dempsey should be considered
To be 6' 3".
Therefore I would have Ali about 6'4" and fit and lean about 225 pounds. I think he'd outbox almost all the current big men over 15 rounds, many of whom wouldn't have the stamina for the longer distance anyway.