Bigzabs Dream Caretaker Heavyweight Tourney.

bigzab · Post by **bigzab** » 22 May 2006, 08:26

Big thanks to Jezzamundo, great idea to do a dream heavyweight tournament. I enjoyed it.

Now allow me to steal your idea and have some fun with it. I am going to pick 8 heavies who you can consider 'caretakers'. They either held the title between two surefire greats or were outstanding in a period which did not have a surefire ATG.
I have thought about this on and off for a while now, and it's tricky to single out a fighter as 'caretaker' or 'borderline great'.
You got fighters like Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney, who I would have expected to include in this. But I decided not to, because I think they did more at lower weights where both could easily be considered All Timers. So it's striclty Heavyweight borderliners. Not lower weight greats who came up to be good heavies.

I had Tommy Burns on the list at first, but I dropped the idea. He is just too small, in my opinion, to match interestingly with bigger, more modern fighters.

This is the list i decided on :
Jess Willard - almost excluded on similar grounds to Burns, but his size makes him an interesting proposition. This could be the definition of caretaker, there is no more clearcut example of a less than great bridging a gap between two legendary fighters.
Jack Sharkey - Picked this guy ahead of Carnera, Baer and Schmeling. Schmeling just slightly too good to be in this category, due to his destructuion of Louis. Baer inconsistant, and Carnera just not good enough. I have to admit that there is an element of subjectivity here, I like Sharkey and believe that he is underrated by many people, while his skill is always talked about. Volatile character makes for interesting fights too. Call it a personal pick.
Jersey Joe Walcott - Easy choice. Not on the level of Louis or Marciano, according to most, but would give any heavyweight of any day a good fight.
Floyd Patterson - Again, easy pick. Will never live with the big guns of the heavyweight division but hit hard and fast enough to be a factor in this company.
Ken Norton - No explanation needed.
Tim Witherspoon - Might surprise some people, but as I rate Holmes so highly, I thought that I needed to include one good heavyweight from the eighties here, and Witherspoon seems to be the perfect choice. Was an underacheiver in the eighties (while winning two alpha's) but remained competitive well into the 90's, where he deserved a shot at one of the elite fighters but never got it.
Number 8 is proving a hard choice, obviously has to be someone from late 80's early 90's, as I don't think that i have missed anyone out from previous era's.
I considered Micheal Spinks, I think that most people rate him as a heavyweight overall, but i am in two minds wether he acheived enough after the two Holmes fights, which in themselves you could say were questionable. Micheal Moorer, John Ruiz, Hasim Rahman, David Tua and Vitali Klitschko all under consideration, but I will have to go away and think about this at work. Decision to be made by tomorrow.

Format will be same as Jezza's dream, but I won't bother with points. Each fighter to fight 2 15 round matches with each other and the top fighter to be decided on w-l-d (ko). Where two fighters have identical records, head to head will be the deciding factor. If they still can't be split, head to head results against the fighter ranked immediately below the two tied will come into play.
I will do a round by round for the first match between each fighter, but won't bother for the rematch unless i deem it is sufficiently competitive.

Will post my choice for no.8 in the next 24, if anyone is interested enough in this madness, i would appreciate some help, but schedule will be posted soon and then I will get down to serious business of fights.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 May 2006, 08:52

Seems you've only decided on 6 unless Spinks is confirmed. Byrd is a possibility as is McCall I suppose. I'd seriously Consider Byrd before some of the names you have included such as Rahman, Moorer Tua and Ruiz.

If your only considering "reigining" champs Id consider Byrd before any of those other Names. If you looking for one more name only...I'd go with Byrd for the time he held the title. If your not going to use Spinks then maybe one of the other names should be included. I also assume you consider Charles an all time great and so would not qualify.

I will miss Baer since you decided on Sharkey. But either way it may prove interesting.

bigzab · Post by **bigzab** » 22 May 2006, 10:25

Thank you buzz.
Sorry, you are right, I forgot to replace Burns after I dropped him! This was all done very hastily. Spinks might have to be in then. We shall see.
Thanks for the feedback.

taverner · Post by **taverner** » 22 May 2006, 15:25

I like the concept here. It could showcase some interesting matchups we don't normally consider.

Re other fighters you could include, I think Spinks would be a good choice - he definitely fits the caretaker category coming as he did between Holmes and Tyson. Another name for consideration - Michael Dokes. Could have been the successor to Holmes if he hadn't self destructed. Another older name might be Lee Savold, who was a claimant post Louis and pre Marciano, but I don't know much about him. Jimmy Ellis is another who might fit the bill.

Have fun with the thread.

bigzab · Post by **bigzab** » 23 May 2006, 03:09

WOW! Taverner, while at work I was seriously thinking about including Mike Dokes, but decided that I don't know enough about his style of fighting to do a fair analysis. Lee Savold I never really considered, because I settled fairly quickly on Walcott for that era, I think his style will hold up well against the modern Heavyweights. And again I have no idea about his style.
I have also come to the same conclusion as you about Spinks - the Jinx is in. He did beat Holmes twice, questionable or not, and Holmes proved many years later against Mercer, Holyfield and McCall that he was still a force, whatever his age. Spink's wins over Holmes certainly look more impressive with time. His two wins between Holmes and Tyson may not have been against top opposition, but he did what any good linear champ would be expected to do in those fights.
I am going to put Chris Byrd in. I did consider him before, but Buzz has made a good argument and convinced me. I am lacking a representative of the late '90's/early '00's, and Byrd has the best credentials. I shied away from Vitali because he is awkward, and to be honest, it would be too much hard work mentally pitting him against so many different styles and sizes of fighter. And who know's, he might turn out to be the best Heavyweight champ for a very long time, so his status is still up in the air re caretaker.
So, let the fun begin.

First round will be :
Tim Witherspoon v Jess Willard
Chris Byrd v Ken Norton
Jersey Joe Walcott v Floyd Patterson
Micheal Spinks v Jack Sharkey

Second round:
Chris Byrd v Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard v Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd Patterson v Tim Witherspoon
Ken Norton v Micheal Spinks

Third round:
Floyd Patterson v Micheal Spinks
Jersey Joe Walcott v Chris Byrd
Ken Norton v Tim Witherspoon
Jack Sharkey v Jess Willard

Fourth round:
Tim Witherspoon v Jack Sharkey
Jersey Joe Walcott v Ken Norton
Micheal Spinks v Jess Willard
Floyd Patterson v Chris Byrd

Fifth round:
Floyd Patterson v Jess Willard
Chris Byrd v Micheal Spinks
Tim Witherspoon v Jersey Joe Walcott
Jack Sharkey v Ken Norton

Sixth round:
Jack Sharkey v Floyd Patterson
Micheal Spinks v Jersey Joe Walcott
Tim Witherspoon v Chris Byrd
Ken Norton v Jess Willard

Seventh round:
Floyd Patterson v Ken Norton
Tim Witherspoon v Micheal Spinks
Chris Byrd v Jess Willard
Jersey Joe Walcott v Jack Sharkey

This schedule will be repeated for rounds 8 to 14 to complete the tournament.
I will be back soon.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 23 May 2006, 07:49

so should we just do one round at a time or all 14 in succession?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 23 May 2006, 07:54

round 1.....

Tim Witherspoon v Jess Willard
Chris Byrd v Ken Norton
Jersey Joe Walcott v Floyd Patterson
Micheal Spinks v Jack Sharkey

Witherspoon MD Willard

Norton KO 7 Byrd

Patterson UD Walcott

Spinks UD Sharkey

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 May 2006, 08:05

Another older name might be Lee Savold, who was a claimant post Louis and pre Marciano

lee savold was a joke, there were far better contenders of the 1940s-early 50s than him

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 May 2006, 08:07

round 1.....

Tim Witherspoon v Jess Willard
Chris Byrd v Ken Norton
Jersey Joe Walcott v Floyd Patterson
Micheal Spinks v Jack Sharkey

walcott 15 unanimous patterson

witherspoon 15 unanimous willard

sharkey 15 split spinx

norton 15 unanimous bryd

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 May 2006, 08:40

Witherspoon WMD 15 Willard
Norton WRSF 12 Byrd
Walcott KO 9 Patterson
Sharkey WSD 15 Spinks

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 23 May 2006, 08:42

WITHERSPOON UD WILLARD
NORTON KO9 BYRD
PATTERSON MD WALCOTT
SPINKS TKO8 SHARKEY STOPPED ON CUTS

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 23 May 2006, 08:49

sockdollanger wrote: Tim Witherspoon v Jess Willard
Chris Byrd v Ken Norton
Jersey Joe Walcott v Floyd Patterson
Micheal Spinks v Jack Sharkey

Witherspoon UD Willard – Spoon fades late but holds on for close win
Norton late rd TKO over Byrd
Walcott mid rd KO over Patterson
Sharkey mid-late rd TKO over Spinks

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 23 May 2006, 09:12

sharkey w/ a TKO, must have had a roll of quarters in his palm.

bigzab · Post by **bigzab** » 23 May 2006, 09:14

sockdollanger wrote:so should we just do one round at a time or all 14 in succession?

Whoooooaaaaaa, easy tiger, one round at a time, one round at a time!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 23 May 2006, 09:18

sockdollanger wrote:sharkey w/ a TKO, must have had a roll of quarters in his palm.

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 May 2006, 09:23

Winners in Bold

Tim Witherspoon v Jess Willard UD

Chris Byrd v Ken Norton SD
Jersey Joe Walcott v Floyd Patterson KO RD 6
Micheal Spinks v Jack Sharkey TKO RD 9

taverner · Post by **taverner** » 23 May 2006, 09:44

Willard w unan Witherspoon
Norton w ko3 Byrd
Walcott w split Patterson
Sharkey w split Spinks

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 23 May 2006, 20:42

Witherspoon KO 4 Willard
Norton WSD Byrd
Walcott KO 11 Patterson
M Spinks WUD Sharkey

How bout next we do Bantamweights or Featherweights.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 May 2006, 21:33

good idea to get away from the Heavies next time though i would prefer middle or welter

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 23 May 2006, 21:56

Yeah, BoxBuzz I'd like to see a 32 fighter tournament, and have it as a knockout competition. Once a fighter loses he's out, and we have new pairings for the next round. Just like the Olympics. And with 32 fighters it'd take a real nitpicker to complain about someone being left out. But this being the Boxers Of The Past forum someone will complain.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 23 May 2006, 22:40

Its a good idea to have this tournament. I propose however that they all have to first beat George Scrapiron Johnson in order to get in.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 May 2006, 23:12

sockdollanger wrote:sharkey w/ a TKO, must have had a roll of quarters in his palm.

did he have a roll of quarters in his palm when he flattened tommy loughran, a former hall of fame light-h champion like spinx?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 24 May 2006, 06:55

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
sockdollanger wrote:sharkey w/ a TKO, must have had a roll of quarters in his palm.
did he have a roll of quarters in his palm when he flattened tommy loughran, a former hall of fame light-h champion like spinx?

Apparently!

why dont you relax Brockton, I was joking.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 24 May 2006, 13:03

sockdollanger wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
sockdollanger wrote:sharkey w/ a TKO, must have had a roll of quarters in his palm.
did he have a roll of quarters in his palm when he flattened tommy loughran, a former hall of fame light-h champion like spinx?
Apparently! why dont you relax Brockton, I was joking.

Tommy was also 5'11" and 183 lbs, where as Spinks was 6'3" and 205lbs

bigzab · Post by **bigzab** » 05 Jun 2006, 02:12

OK, screw the round by round, damn computer crashed twice while i tried to do this.
Witherspoon 6'3", 230lb, 78" reach, Willard 6'6", 230lb, 83" reach.
Witherspoon beats Willard by unanimous decision over 15.
I see Willard having his moments early and up to 6-7th round, using his mobility (which it would seem is often overlooked) but Witherspoon works his way inside, jab is the key here, and gets closer as the fight progresses.
Witherspoon wins close but clear due to effective close range fighting. I see Willard eating plenty of big overhand rights in the last 5 rounds but sucking up the punishment to last the distance.
Spoon's stamina is another factor also overlooked, and in my opinion this is the deciding factor here.
Well, thats my take.
Witherspoon UD 15 Willard.

Ken Norton v Chris Byrd next.