Would Muhammad Ali be successful today?

[HomicideHenry]

Frazier would massacre fury. But good for you, be done with the thread....

Idk.... Clinching has become such a huge aspect of the game, and Frazier didn't have the best defense.... A big, tall man with quick hands and feet could either pepper him all night with jabs or he could walk straight into uppercuts like he did against Foreman... True, Fury's no large puncher (or at least he doesn't like to power punch but rather box) but I can see him swelling up Frazier pretty badly with that frequent jab.

Frazier was pretty short, and had trouble closing the distance (at times) with Ali in their two rematches--- especially the Madison Square Garden return bout that was twelve rounds. I don't think Fury could stop him, but I don't think Joe could reasonably mount a great offense on the ever moving, ever jabbing Fury. When a man is nearly 7' tall and leans back he's 8' away from you at all times--- Wilder looked like an amateur leaping forward like he did trying to land anything and that's a man not much shorter than Fury.

And don't get too upset with me. I don't think Marciano or Tyson or even Dempsey could do it either. Too short. They'd try like heck but they wouldn't be able to get off too many punches.

[Onetimeonly]

Not upset at all, you're hilarious.

[Controversial]

Those guys are not in the great Muhammad Ali's class. Please, stop it. Please!

I said he would find it harder, not that he couldn't beat them. Sheer size and strength does make a difference, Fury wouldn't be the same challenge if he was 5'11" and 15 stone would he.

[HomicideHenry]

Not upset at all, you're hilarious.

https://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html

Do you even realize just how large a difference between 5'11" and 6'9" actually is? Let alone how much harder that problem is when it's a moving target constantly flicking jabs and counter straight hands at you?

If we were talking big targets who just barrelled forward with the grace of a bull elephant like Jess Willard I would agree with you--- but we're not talking about such a proposition.

Fury is 3" taller than Willard, and actually has athleticism, toughness, endurance, speed, skills, and a great ring IQ. Not to mention a reach 12" longer than Frazier (73") at a whopping 85". Those 12 inches may as well be 12 miles. Think Lewis-Tua, and you'd understand the problem here.

[dalcumly]

Just a minor point - what was the height/reach difference between Valuev and Haye ?? I believe it was around 11 inches??

[HomicideHenry]

Just a minor point - what was the height/reach difference between Valuev and Haye ?? I believe it was around 11 inches??

True enough, but even at that the fight was very close. Which is striking because Valuev was slow, ponderous, and not particularly doing much in that ring. Personally, I thought Holyfield was more impressive against Valuev than Haye. However, there's a big difference between a guy like Fury and a guy like Valuev.

[dalcumly]

The real answer to this question can be found in how you feel about the following - Would the 1966 version of Ali beat the 1973 version of George Foreman. In other words would the quicker and lighter Ali beat the huge but ponderous lethal puncher that was Foreman? In the 1973 fight Ali changed his game plan and outlasted and demoralised Foreman. The 1966 version of Ali couldn't have withstood Foreman if he stopped moving. Personally I think the 1966 'peak' version of Ali would have humiliated Foreman and anyone else.

[Onetimeonly]

https://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html

Do you even realize just how large a difference between 5'11" and 6'9" actually is? Let alone how much harder that problem is when it's a moving target constantly flicking jabs and counter straight hands at you?

If we were talking big targets who just barrelled forward with the grace of a bull elephant like Jess Willard I would agree with you--- but we're not talking about such a proposition.

Fury is 3" taller than Willard, and actually has athleticism, toughness, endurance, speed, skills, and a great ring IQ. Not to mention a reach 12" longer than Frazier (73") at a whopping 85". Those 12 inches may as well be 12 miles. Think Lewis-Tua, and you'd understand the problem here.

I definitely see the problem if you think Lewis/fury & tua/Frazier are apt comparisons.

[HomicideHenry]

The real answer to this question can be found in how you feel about the following - Would the 1966 version of Ali beat the 1973 version of George Foreman. In other words would the quicker and lighter Ali beat the huge but ponderous lethal puncher that was Foreman? In the 1973 fight Ali changed his game plan and outlasted and demoralised Foreman. The 1966 version of Ali couldn't have withstood Foreman if he stopped moving. Personally I think the 1966 'peak' version of Ali would have humiliated Foreman and anyone else.

Or imagine if the '74 version of Ali tried dancing from start to finish. Would he have lasted against Foreman? That version of Ali I don't think could have.

Now the '67 version of Ali probably would have. Foreman had no stamina. But even the 1960s version of Ali could look vulnerable at times--- or at least look lackluster. In the 60s he was still an unknown quantity. Many questions about him wouldn't be answered until later in his career.

Maybe a more meaningful question would be how would the '74 version of done with someone like Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's?

That's a really interesting question. Men who had size, ability, toughness, athleticism and endurance. From '74 onwards Ali started going downhill.

[gilgamesh]

I certainly wouldn't expect him to attempt the rope-a-dope strategy with everyone. He just knew it would work with Foreman. It would be dumb as sh*t to attempt that strategy against Bowe or particularly Lennox Lewis. Lennox would just be patiently picking his shots from a distance. He wouldn't be swinging away, and wearing himself out.

[elmersalsa]

I certainly wouldn't expect him to attempt the rope-a-dope strategy with everyone. He just knew it would work with Foreman. It would be dumb as sh*t to attempt that strategy against Bowe or particularly Lennox Lewis. Lennox would just be patiently picking his shots from a distance. He wouldn't be swinging away, and wearing himself out.

Still, Ali's speed in '74 would have been too much for the Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowes or the Klitschkos or any of today's big heavyweights. Plus, let's not forget who had more heart, will and determination. Ali could give them a gift in that department.

[DrDuke]

I wouldn't pick Ali against the likes of Lewis, Holyfied and Bowe. Holyfied would have been like Frazier to Ali, less powerful, but more diverse and precise. Bowe was too good in imposing his brutal inside game, Ali would be able to circle around for too long. And well-prepared Lewis was just near perfect pugilist with excellent use of his size and reach, with great IQ and fluidness, with huge and effectively delivered power.

[Controversial]

True enough, but even at that the fight was very close. Which is striking because Valuev was slow, ponderous, and not particularly doing much in that ring. Personally, I thought Holyfield was more impressive against Valuev than Haye. However, there's a big difference between a guy like Fury and a guy like Valuev.

So close that Jim Watt had Valuev the winner.

[Cojimar 1946]

We never saw Ali against skilled super heavies so we don't have much to go on in that regards. But I think the idea that Ali is too quick isn't based on much logic. Mildenberger and Chuvalo were able to land quite a bit. He wasn't exactly unhittable even in the 1960s.

As far as Frazier vs Fury goes it would be interesting to see how Frazier dealt with the huge height gap, maybe he could focus on the body and ignore the head.

[dalcumly]

I've always wondered what would have happened to Ali's legacy if in 1974 a 'wiser' Foreman had simply stood back from Ali and laughed at him for lying on the ropes and covering up. Called the referee over and complained about Ali refusing to fight. If it forced Ali to open up Foreman would have stopped him and the history of heavyweight boxing would have been altered.

[Ambling Alp II]

If you believe guys like Weaver, Tate, Coetzee, Tubbs, etc could beat the top three (Fury, Wilder, Joshua) as well as the Klitschko's then you certainly see something I don't.

A man going from 147-200 and making an awful lot of heavyweights look silly is not as impressive or more so than just dominating a single weight class, then nothing could convince you of somebody's greatness.

Ali was also dropped by the likes of Duke Sabedong... The point is anyone can look foolish or silly.

I would expect a man 215 pounds to naturally be faster than the 245+ pound heavyweights today... Yes Ali was arguably the fastest all around but there were men with comparable hand and foot speed... But even they lost to larger men. At some point physics will be too much to overcome.

I used to despise Lewis. Wouldn't even rate him higher than #11 for the longest time. I also thought at one time Larry Holmes was no higher than #10. But that was when I was 18-19 years old. I'm 33 now, and see Holmes as #1 and Lewis arguably #5 because at the end of the day one must figure, "Who can beat who?", and it's difficult for me seeing 5'11" Marciano & Frazier & Tyson doing much, etc. I'd still rate Ali somewhere in the top three, but I think he wouldn't be able to do much with Holyfield, Holmes, Lewis, and the much bigger men as well.

OK, just homicide. stop it. You are now saying things that are factually untrue. Ali was not dropped by Duke Sabedong. That did not happen. You pulled that out of your a$$. Honestly homicide, do you have any ability at all to converse with people? This is ridiculous.
Start doing research. And I don't mean just skimming. I mean read things thoroughly and comprehend it. This is like the umpreenth time you have done something like this.

Do I think Tate Tubbs, Weaver, etc could beat the Klitschkos, Fury, Joshua, and Wilder? That is a legitimate question. Hard to say with Joshua because by far his biggest against a senior citizen. Fury doesn't seem like much. Vitaly Klitschko wasn't much. Wladimir had some strengths and some great weaknesses. Same with Wilder. Tubbs, Weaver, and Weaver etc. had their pluses and minutes. You could legitimately argue this either way.
That would be a good topic.

You have Ali your top 3, but don't see him doing much Holyfield, Holmes, Lewis, and the much bigger men. That makes almost no sense either.

You are ripping the 1980s and then in the same post say that Larry Holmes is the best heavyweight of all time. Guess what, Larry Holmes fought in the 1980s! Start thinking.

[Scypion]

Just my opinion but I think that Ali would have been great in any era. He not only was the fastest heavyweight but he could not be knocked out. He was stopped by Holmes, but Ali was shot by then, and he wasn't ever counted out.

[HomicideHenry]

Correction.... Ali was knocked out in the amateurs at least four times.... He was basically knocked out against Cooper. He could be knocked out. Anyone can be knocked out. Even guys like Cobb were stopped.

[Scypion]

Correction.... Ali was knocked out in the amateurs at least four times.... He was basically knocked out against Cooper. He could be knocked out. Anyone can be knocked out. Even guys like Cobb were stopped.

I guess that's true, but Ali was never counted out as a pro, and he took a pretty good beating by Joe Frazier.

[Controversial]

I guess that's true, but Ali was never counted out as a pro, and he took a pretty good beating by Joe Frazier.

Ali was hurt in several fights, Cooper was only 12 stone 12lbs when he fought Ali and nearly knocked him out. Didn't Foley stagger Ali in one fight?

[overhand_right]

Ali was hurt in several fights, Cooper was only 12 stone 12lbs when he fought Ali and nearly knocked him out. Didn't Foley stagger Ali in one fight?

No, Zora Foley didn't stagger Ali at all. And David Haye was nearly knocked out by the super middleweight Lolenga Mock, and was also down against cruisers Thompson and Mormeck, but went 12 rounds with Wladimir Klitschko, one of the heavyweight division's biggest ever hitters.

I don't know why people bring up fights where a raw novice slipped up while taking chances against an inferior opponent and ignore the much larger body of work of the mature fighter beating better guys and doing so in a disciplined manner. So Clay was down against Banks and Cooper. I guess that guarantees he gets knocked out by Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle and Shavers. That's the way it works right?

[oogiebe]

No, Zora Foley didn't stagger Ali at all. And David Haye was nearly knocked out by the super middleweight Lolenga Mock, and was also down against cruisers Thompson and Mormeck, but went 12 rounds with Wladimir Klitschko, one of the heavyweight division's biggest ever hitters.

I don't know why people bring up fights where a raw novice slipped up while taking chances against an inferior opponent and ignore the much larger body of work of the mature fighter beating better guys and doing so in a disciplined manner. So Clay was down against Banks and Cooper. I guess that guarantees he gets knocked out by Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle and Shavers. That's the way it works right?

[Ambling Alp II]

Correction.... Ali was knocked out in the amateurs at least four times.... He was basically knocked out against Cooper. He could be knocked out. Anyone can be knocked out. Even guys like Cobb were stopped.

And again you are factually wrong. Ali was stopped one time as an amateur, when he was 16 years old.
He was not basically knocked out by Cooper. He was up at the count of 3.

[oogiebe]

This is getting just silly at this point.

[evrenb]

And again you are factually wrong. Ali was stopped one time as an amateur, when he was 16 years old.
He was not basically knocked out by Cooper. He was up at the count of 3.

I agree with Alp ..HH changing historical facts because of his weak argument. Ali would definitely reign in this day though undoubtedly the champs of today would be very competitive....