Sugar Ray Leonard, what if?

[Ambling Alp II]

Quite aware of this. Still waiting for you to give another example.

[HomicideHenry]

If Leonard himself admits he lost, you can't demand me to give some example that doesn't reflect how the fight actually went--- when Leonard flat out lost and was gifted.

I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks Ali really did beat Jimmy Young too.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think Young lost to Ali. It was his for the taking , but he decided he would rather stick his head outside of the ropes instead of going for the win.
(btw, I saw Hearns interviewed multiple times about the fight. Never heard him complain about the decision.)

I bet you are the kind of guy who once started 5 different anti-Ali Topics on page one of this Forum. Yes, I remember that.

[APerno]

Leonard landed more punches and hurt Hearns more often than Hearns hurt him. Can you give me one other example in the history of boxing where a guy did that, got a draw and it was considered a gift for him?
Please I would love to hear about it.

To contradict my own statements regarding Leonard's strength; in the 12th of Leonard-Hearns II, I felt like Hearns was getting ready to go; he didn't look like he had left, what was necessary to face three more rounds with Leonard. That night I remember having a gut feeling that had the fight been scheduled for 15, it would have been another late TKO for Leonard. Still feel that way when I watch the replay.

With that said, I still also believe Leonard got a gift decision; just like in the first fight he was behind after 12.

[APerno]

I like Gene. He could have been LHW champion at any time he wanted. Siki, McTigue, Berlenbach, etc sure as hell wasn't going to stop him. That being said--- Charles in my view was a better heavyweight than Tunney. I'll take the Walcott fights, Marciano fights, etc over the two ten rounders Gene had with Dempsey.

Also, I can't see Charles exactly struggling with middleweight Harry Greb--- when tbh Gene lost more than once to Greb, though the record books show just the one loss. If Charles on the decline had two wars with prime Marciano, there's no way Greb beats prime Charles even once.

Do agree regarding Tunney-Greb, there are more than a few contemporaries and historians who feel the Greb-Tunney total should be 2-2-1

[Onetimeonly]

I argue that w/ someone like Babe Ruth.

Hank Aaron and others beat the homerun record he set, sure, but Aaron had 3,900+ more games than Ruth. Not to mention Ruth spent a sizeable chunk of his career as a pitcher, and also played with heavier bats & larger stadiums--- Forbes Field, where #714 happened, was the first & only homerun to ever happen in that particular arena.

Hank Aaron played 3,298 games. Wtf is wrong with you that you pull out something like that and wonder why you get ridiculed? I'm sure you mean at bats, even then you're excluding plate appearances. Nothing is ever accurate with you, just one way nonsense to suit your whims. Hank also didn't face the same pitcher everyday and faced all the best players of his time. Any who, I think bonds was significantly greater than either of them.

[APerno]

For what it is worth:

Aaron 3298 (G) 12364 (AB) 13941 (PA)
Bonds 2986 (G) 9847 (AB) 12606 (PA)
Ruth 2503 (G) 8399 (AB) 10623 (PA)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ruth would hit a HR about once every 12 AB (714/8399 or 0.085%)
Bonds would hit a HR about once every 13 AB (762/9847 or 0.077%)
Aaron would hit a HR about once every 16.5 AB (755/12364 or 0.061%)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ruth would hit a HR about once every 15 PA (714/10623 or 0.67%)
Bonds would hit a HR about once every 16.5 PA (762/12606 or 0.060%)
Aaron would hit a HR about once every 18.5 PA (755/13941 or 0.054%)

----------------------------------------------------------------

But Wilt Chamberlain can KO all of them including Leonard. (Where's Kalan!)

[elmersalsa]

They had longer careers who cares? Maybe you when it favors your guy. Neither can match Leonard's best wins. Leonard's fourth best win is more unimpressive than Mayweather's best win. And Leonard didn't need judges to give him a BS decision against people like Castillo.
Beating great fighter's is an achievement than is 10x more important than anything Mayweather ever did.

Pretty Boy Floyd beat more champions. About at least 15 of them. Had more titles from 130 to 154. That's a 24 pound difference. Sugar Ray never went above 20 lbs. His prime was short. Never gave rematches. At least Floyd and Roberto did.

And comparing Duran and Leonard, one was a lightweight. The other one a Welterweight. One had to jump 2 weight classes to kick his ass. Duran's resume is better. Let's not go there. Or you want it to go there? I will be there with you.

[elmersalsa]

Kalambay lost a past it Kalue. Leonard beat a prime Kalue. Leonard fought jr. Middleweights and middleweights on his way up before he even won the welterweight title. He would have no problem at middleweight.

Sugar Ray didn't look that great above 147lbs. He knew that he wasn't as effective above 147. That's why he retired after the Kevin Howard fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes I'm sure Mayweather beat more WBS champions. Don't give a flying handshake. He has a grand total of zero wins against anyone that would have given Leonard any trouble.

Mayweather have anything that approaches Benitez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler.

Duran has one huge win in career. Couldn't win the rematch against Leonard, couldn't beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler .
Leonard did beat them all.

Leonard did fight rematches with Duran and Hearns. Guess you didn't realize that.

Don't care about Duran moving up in weight he weighed 147 when he fought Leonard. He had been a welterweight for two years. Leonard was able to move up in weight,

If we are really going to pretend that WBS titles mean a lot than we have to count all of Leonard's. So not only do the the titles at 147, 154 count, so does 160 , and 168, and 175. That's a 28 pound difference.

But of course you want to move the goalposts and say those don't count.

The only thing Duran has over Leonard is more win. About 70 were against stiffs. His best wins were against Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino. Good fighters, clearly not as good as Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler.

If you use logic, and commonsense, Leonard's resume is clearly superior than Duran's. And even more superior to Mayweather's.

[elmersalsa]

Yes I'm sure Mayweather beat more WBS champions. Don't give a flying handshake. He has a grand total of zero wins against anyone that would have given Leonard any trouble.

Mayweather have anything that approaches Benitez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler.

Duran has one huge win in career. Couldn't win the rematch against Leonard, couldn't beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler .
Leonard did beat them all.

Leonard did fight rematches with Duran and Hearns. Guess you didn't realize that.

Don't care about Duran moving up in weight he weighed 147 when he fought Leonard. He had been a welterweight for two years. Leonard was able to move up in weight,

If we are really going to pretend that WBS titles mean a lot than we have to count all of Leonard's. So not only do the the titles at 147, 154 count, so does 160 , and 168, and 175. That's a 28 pound difference.

But of course you want to move the goalposts and say those don't count.

The only thing Duran has over Leonard is more win. About 70 were against stiffs. His best wins were against Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino. Good fighters, clearly not as good as Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler.

If you use logic, and commonsense, Leonard's resume is clearly superior than Duran's. And even more superior to Mayweather's.

In wins against all time 100 greats only Leonard had better wins. He beat 4. Duran only one. And Mayweather only one. That's not a great stretch. Duran beating 13 world champions to Leonard's 6 is a big stretch. You don't want to go there right? He did it from featherweight all the way to middleweight. That's 7 weight classes and a total of 44 pounds above his original weight class.

Mayweather beat about 17 world champions in 5 different weight classes. That's 24 pounds above his original weight class from Jr Lightweight to Jr middleweight. Leonard didn't do that. Oh! I forgot, he beat a light heavyweight champion that had to drop 7 pounds to 168. Donny Lalonde? Great accomplishment? Two titles in one night against Donny Lalonde? Really?

All of Leonard's best wins were at Welterweight... HIS WEIGHT CLASS. IN HIS PRIME. Duran and Benitez had to jump Up. So, the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT LEONARD BEAT WAS THOMAS HEARNS. THAT'S IT! And a LIGHTWEIGHT WHUPPED HIS ASS. Can you imagine a featherweight beating Duran? And if you think of one, tell me who? And if you think that would have been possible, then why the great Alexis Arguello didn't come up? Why the great Wilfredo Gomez didn't come up? That would have been GREAT WINS for Duran, right?

Duran fought Marvelous in Marvelous prime toe to toe for 15 rounds. Leonard ran for 12 rounds to a fading Marvelous. Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus and Carlos Palomino were great boxers. So were Ernesto Marcel and Iran Barkley. Buchanan and De Jesus are top 20 all time lightweight greats. How many top 20 all time Welterweight greats Leonard beat? One? Tommy Hearns? Because Duran to me is not a Welterweight great.

And when it comes to give rematches, he gave those rematches about 9 years later? WTF is that? Real champions give rematches. I guess you don't realize that. That's why Duran gets more respect in the boxing world than Leonard. He was truly a true fighter. You can't say that much about Leonard. TOO MANY STIPULATIONS.

[HomicideHenry]

NVM.... Babe Ruth was just a fatass alcoholic who couldn't really play with anyone today... And Leonard was so damn good he'd beat every single fighter within 25-30 pounds of his weight in history...

[Onetimeonly]

NVM.... Babe Ruth was just a fatass alcoholic who couldn't really play with anyone today... And Leonard was so damn good he'd beat every single fighter within 25-30 pounds of his weight in history...

There ya go, get irrationally upset.

[HomicideHenry]

There ya go, get irrationally upset.

Hey, I know nothing... So whatever...

[Onetimeonly]

Hey, I know nothing... So whatever...

Agreed

[Ambling Alp II]

In wins against all time 100 greats only Leonard had better wins. He beat 4. Duran only one. And Mayweather only one. That's not a great stretch. Duran beating 13 world champions to Leonard's 6 is a big stretch. You don't want to go there right? He did it from featherweight all the way to middleweight. That's 7 weight classes and a total of 44 pounds above his original weight class.

Mayweather beat about 17 world champions in 5 different weight classes. That's 24 pounds above his original weight class from Jr Lightweight to Jr middleweight. Leonard didn't do that. Oh! I forgot, he beat a light heavyweight champion that had to drop 7 pounds to 168. Donny Lalonde? Great accomplishment? Two titles in one night against Donny Lalonde? Really?

All of Leonard's best wins were at Welterweight... HIS WEIGHT CLASS. IN HIS PRIME. Duran and Benitez had to jump Up. So, the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT LEONARD BEAT WAS THOMAS HEARNS. THAT'S IT! And a LIGHTWEIGHT WHUPPED HIS ASS. Can you imagine a featherweight beating Duran? And if you think of one, tell me who? And if you think that would have been possible, then why the great Alexis Arguello didn't come up? Why the great Wilfredo Gomez didn't come up? That would have been GREAT WINS for Duran, right?

Duran fought Marvelous in Marvelous prime toe to toe for 15 rounds. Leonard ran for 12 rounds to a fading Marvelous. Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus and Carlos Palomino were great boxers. So were Ernesto Marcel and Iran Barkley. Buchanan and De Jesus are top 20 all time lightweight greats. How many top 20 all time Welterweight greats Leonard beat? One? Tommy Hearns? Because Duran to me is not a Welterweight great.

And when it comes to give rematches, he gave those rematches about 9 years later? WTF is that? Real champions give rematches. I guess you don't realize that. That's why Duran gets more respect in the boxing world than Leonard. He was truly a true fighter. You can't say that much about Leonard. TOO MANY STIPULATIONS.

I don't care how many "world" champions someone beat. Beating a guy who had a paper title doesn't mean anything at all to me.

You want to mock the win over Lalonde? Fine.

Lets take a look at who Mayweather beat for his titles:
Super Featherweight -He beat Genaro Hernandez
Light weight - Jose Luis castillo. (Even i n that fight, he looked like crap and didn't dserve the decision.)
Super Light weight - Arturo Gatti
Welterweight -Carlos Baldomir
Super Welterweight Past it De La Hoya (who you are always mocking)

So flipping what?

Leoanrd:
welterweight against Benitez.
He won the middleweight title against Hagler.
So no, I don't care about Mayweather's "World titles".

Beating a a guy in the Top 50 does. Beating 4 of them is a lot more impressive than beating 1. I also don't give Mayweather credit for beating any, since none were anywhere near a top 50 when he fought them.

I don't consider Buchanan, Dejesus, Marcel and Palomino near the level of Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. It's that simple.
Iran Barkley Barkley a great fighter? Come flippin on. Ayub Kalue was a better fighter.

When Duran moves up it's a big deal to you. I don't think it's any bigger than anyone else who moves up. Hearns moved up multiple times. . Benitez moved up multiple times. Leonard himself moved. I don't expect a guy who wins a title at the age of 21 to never move up.

The rematches? Well, Hearns, Duran, and Benitez all moved out of the welterweight class . Why is it it Leonard's responsibility to give up his title and go after someone he had already stopped?

And shut the hell up about Leonard beating one true welterweight. Total nonsense.

[HomicideHenry]

Alp... Who are your top ten-twenty p4p fighters, I'm just curious?

[Onetimeonly]

To contradict my own statements regarding Leonard's strength; in the 12th of Leonard-Hearns II, I felt like Hearns was getting ready to go; he didn't look like he had left, what was necessary to face three more rounds with Leonard. That night I remember having a gut feeling that had the fight been scheduled for 15, it would have been another late TKO for Leonard. Still feel that way when I watch the replay.

With that said, I still also believe Leonard got a gift decision; just like in the first fight he was behind after 12.

Hearns opened the 12th hurting Leonard pretty bad. Definitely a poor decision, no real swing RDS.

[Duran1970]

Kalule better than Barkley??? Hell no

And one could make the argument that ray lost to Duran Hagler Hearns also.

[Onetimeonly]

He definitely lost to hearns and Duran, definitely beat them too. Hauler and Leonard was very close, after Leonard won the first 4 rounds. Close but clear for ray, never got the outrage there.

[Ambling Alp II]

Kalule better than Barkley??? Hell no

And one could make the argument that ray lost to Duran Hagler Hearns also.

Luckily, Sumbu Kalambay just happens to be in my pottery class. I will ask him who he thinks was better, Kalue or Barkley.

[APerno]

Hearns opened the 12th hurting Leonard pretty bad. Definitely a poor decision, no real swing RDS.

I agree he did, look good, and then . . . do you agree that come the last minute of the 12th Hearns' legs look wobbly and he had that off-balance movement often caused by fatigue?

[Onetimeonly]

I agree he did, look good, and then . . . do you agree that come the last minute of the 12th Hearns' legs look wobbly and he had that off-balance movement often caused by fatigue?

No question, Leonard kicked his ass the last two minutes. Didn't warrant a 2 point Rd. 9 more minutes would have been tough for the hitman. Then again, if fights were still 15 it wouldn't have happened because hagler would have beat ray.

[Duran1970]

Luckily, Sumbu Kalambay just happens to be in my pottery class. I will ask him who he thinks was better, Kalue or Barkley.

Kalule never beat a top-level guy , including kalambay from many opinions...
Barkley a 3 division champ who beat a hall of famer all time great twice and came very close to beating another.

[jamamb]

Luckily, Sumbu Kalambay just happens to be in my pottery class. I will ask him who he thinks was better, Kalue or Barkley.

lol