Sugar Ray Leonard, what if?

[Ambling Alp II]

For starters, Leonard was a lot better than Palomino and Cuevas. Leonard did just about everything better than Palomino. Cuevas was a hard puncher, but not as hard of a puncher as Hearns. Leonard was much better than Cuevas in every part of boxing. If you can't see that is mind boggling.

Not sure of the relevancy of Halger and Leonard. I was comparing Leonard to Duran.

But fine, if you want to compare Leonard and Hagler: I don't think anyone Leonard beat at welterweight would Hagler; at least at middleweight anyway. Would have been interesting to see Hagler against Benitez at a catchweight, which of course Hagler never would have done.
When they fought head to head, Leonard won. Don't really care about the crybaby Hagler excuses. Hagler also managed to lose to the great Willie Monroe and had a draw with Antuofermo.

[APerno]

Could Leonard have kept Hamsho off him? Benitez with all his speed couldn't. Sometimes size just matters too much! Antuofermo was able to bully Hagler off his game, why not Leonard? -- Probably not, but one of those things you really never know until it happens.

[APerno]

For starters, Leonard was a lot better than Palomino and Cuevas. Leonard did just about everything better than Palomino. Cuevas was a hard puncher, but not as hard of a puncher as Hearns. Leonard was much better than Cuevas in every part of boxing. If you can't see that is mind boggling.

Not sure of the relevancy of Halger and Leonard. I was comparing Leonard to Duran.

But fine, if you want to compare Leonard and Hagler: I don't think anyone Leonard beat at welterweight would Hagler; at least at middleweight anyway. Would have been interesting to see Hagler against Benitez at a catchweight, which of course Hagler never would have done.
When they fought head to head, Leonard won. Don't really care about the crybaby Hagler excuses. Hagler also managed to lose to the great Willie Monroe and had a draw with Antuofermo.

The Willie Monroe reference is disingenuous; not like you. I know you know there much more than just that 'fact' at play.

[Onetimeonly]

Damn alp, shit decisions aren't needed for your argument. Marvin was robbed against Monroe and antuofermo. Watts was his only legit loss before Leonard unless I'm mixing them up. It's been a while, he won a minimum of 10rds against Vito.

[oogiebe]

Damn alp, poo decisions aren't needed for your argument. Marvin was robbed against Monroe and antuofermo. Watts was his only legit loss before Leonard unless I'm mixing them up. It's been a while, he won a minimum of 10rds against Vito.

The Monroe loss was real. The watts loss was the controversial one, but point taken.

[Onetimeonly]

The Monroe loss was real. The watts loss was the controversial one, but point taken.

[Ambling Alp II]

Could Leonard have kept Hamsho off him? Benitez with all his speed couldn't. Sometimes size just matters too much! Antuofermo was able to bully Hagler off his game, why not Leonard? -- Probably not, but one of those things you really never know until it happens.

Always thought Hagler just got lazy in the first Antuofermo fight. He gave Antuofermo some rounds and made the fight much closer than it should have been. Which he did in other fights as well.
Benitez looked terrible in that fight against Hamsho. He may have been on the drugs by then. But anyway, Donny Lalonde just happens to be in my poetry reading group. I will ask him what he thinks about Leonard-Hamsho.

[elmersalsa]

For starters, Leonard was a lot better than Palomino and Cuevas. Leonard did just about everything better than Palomino. Cuevas was a hard puncher, but not as hard of a puncher as Hearns. Leonard was much better than Cuevas in every part of boxing. If you can't see that is mind boggling.

Not sure of the relevancy of Halger and Leonard. I was comparing Leonard to Duran.

But fine, if you want to compare Leonard and Hagler: I don't think anyone Leonard beat at welterweight would Hagler; at least at middleweight anyway. Would have been interesting to see Hagler against Benitez at a catchweight, which of course Hagler never would have done.
When they fought head to head, Leonard won. Don't really care about the crybaby Hagler excuses. Hagler also managed to lose to the great Willie Monroe and had a draw with Antuofermo.

All because both fighters were from different weight classes, that is why I am asking the question. Duran was a natural Lightweight that beat a Welterweight great. Somebody that was younger, faster, bigger and taller than he and in his complete prime.

Now, let's switch the script a little bit. What if Leonard had 13 years in the pro ranks and is 5'5". He is quick and had the same boxing style as always, but he is a featherweight champion for 7 years and is 5 years older than Duran and challenge him. Duran is 5'7" and Lightweight Champion. Do you believe that Leonard beats him?

You ask what opponent that Duran beat beats Leonard?

Well, what opponent that Leonard beat beats Marvelous?

What opponent that Ernesto Marcel beat beats Duran?

The answer is none because is different weight classes. Benitez and Hearns and Marvelous beat an out of prime and in higher weights. Those fights were not at 147, nor at 140 nor at 135 but at 154 and beyond.

Leonard beat Hearns and Benitez and Duran at 147. IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS. IN HIS PRIME.


Duran beat Leonard at 147. It wasn't at 135. That's how I rate Duran above Leonard. Because when both were at their primes and at their very best, Duran was the better fighter. Duran whupped him.

Leonard did not had a fantastic win after age 32. Duran? At 32 and 37, wins two more crowns against guys that were bigger and stronger than he? I don't see that with Sugar Ray. And he should be better than Duran.

Maybe you should ask the forum who was better? Duran or Leonard? Shall we?

[APerno]

Always thought Hagler just got lazy in the first Antuofermo fight. He gave Antuofermo some rounds and made the fight much closer than it should have been. Which he did in other fights as well.
Benitez looked terrible in that fight against Hamsho. He may have been on the drugs by then. But anyway, Donny Lalonde just happens to be in my poetry reading group. I will ask him what he thinks about Leonard-Hamsho.

Ah! You're full of crap, who don't know anything about poetry, but go ahead and ask Donny anyway.

[APerno]

You guys are arguing 'the better' between two of the greatest prize fighters the game has ever witnessed.

You guys have put yourself in a position where you are bad mouthing Leonard and Duran's careers.

Here's a simple assessment; in Montreal Duran wanted it more, in New Orleans Leonard. The results speak for themselves.

[oogiebe]

You guys are arguing 'the better' between two of the greatest prize fighters the game has ever witnessed.

You guys have put yourself in a position where you are bad mouthing Leonard and Duran's careers.

Here's a simple assessment; in Montreal Duran wanted it more, in New Orleans Leonard. The results speak for themselves.

[DrDuke]

I guess, if his career was more prolific in the 80s, it would end by the fall of the 80s, cause Leonard's decline at that period would be more visible. Anyway he was a truly phenomenal boxer, he made such a short career so great.

[Ambling Alp II]

Even if you believe that, there is also the matter of Leonard beating Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler and Duran losing to them all.
And Duran losing to all of them.
And Duran losing to DeJesus.
And Duran beating more people that nobody has heard of.

When you are comparing great fighters against each other, you have to be more critical. The standards are higher.

When comparing most fighters , wins over fighters Buchanan, Palomino, and Cuevas is a big deal. When comparing to who Leonard beat, it's pales in comparison.

[elmersalsa]

Even if you believe that, there is also the matter of Leonard beating Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler and Duran losing to them all.
And Duran losing to all of them.
And Duran losing to DeJesus.
And Duran beating more people that nobody has heard of.

When you are comparing great fighters against each other, you have to be more critical. The standards are higher.

When comparing most fighters , wins over fighters Buchanan, Palomino, and Cuevas is a big deal. When comparing to who Leonard beat, it's pales in comparison.

Sugar Ray had the LUXURY that Benitez and Duran moved up. That's like saying Arguello and Gomez move up to Lightweight to fight Duran. Duran didn't had that LUXURY.

As a matter of fact, every champion, with the exception of Flyweight, had that opponent that moved up to fight the champion.

Why it didn't happened to Duran? He was champion for 7 years and nobody from 130 down moved up. I wonder why.

[Ambling Alp II]

Don't really care why guys lower than 135 chose not to moveup. If Arguello didn't move up because he was afraid of Duran, he would have moved up in 1978 when Duran moved up. He didn't fight for the lightweight title until 1981.

Duran and Benitez had already been fighting at welter for a long time before they fought Leonard. Each a had already beaten Palomino.
Hard to argue that Benitez wasn't a true welterweight when he was the welterweight champion when Leonard beat them.

And guess what, Leonard moved up to beat Hagler. Yet somehow that doesn't seem to mean anything. You are moving the goalposts. Again.

[elmersalsa]

Don't really care why guys lower than 135 chose not to moveup. If Arguello didn't move up because he was afraid of Duran, he would have moved up in 1978 when Duran moved up. He didn't fight for the lightweight title until 1981.

Duran and Benitez had already been fighting at welter for a long time before they fought Leonard. Each a had already beaten Palomino.
Hard to argue that Benitez wasn't a true welterweight when he was the welterweight champion when Leonard beat them.

And guess what, Leonard moved up to beat Hagler. Yet somehow that doesn't seem to mean anything. You are moving the goalposts. Again.

I think is you that is moving the goalposts. Benitez nor Duran were truly real WELTERWEIGHTS. That's a fact. Leonard beating Marvelous doesn't make him a Middleweight. Gene Tunney, Archie Moore nor Ezzard Charles were considered real heavyweights. No matter how long they fought at Heavyweight, they are considered light-heavyweight greats.

And those 3, had Middleweights challenging them. I don't see that in Duran's record. What if Alexis Arguello (Benitez equivalency at Jr Welterweight) and Wilfredo Gomez (Duran equivalency at Lightweight) would have challenged Duran for the lightweight crown? Wouldn't Duran's legacy would have been greater if beaten both of them?

See? Sugar Ray had the LUXURY AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS to fight the fighters that he fought. Duran didn't. And beating two of the best lightweights ever in Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus is a great achievement. He beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS. They might not be top 100 ATG pound per pound, but excellent boxers to say at least.

Now, can you imagine a featherweight in history beating Duran at Lightweight? Because Duran whupped Sugar Ray at Welterweight!

[Ambling Alp II]

I see.
When Duran moves up, huge achievement. When Leonard does, it doesn't count.
If a guy you like wins any sort of title, it's a big achievement. When Leonard does it, not a big achievement.
When Duran wins by three points on your own scorecard, it's an ass whipping.
When Leonard wins by TKO8 over Duran, not an ass whipping.
A fighter stays at the weight that he originally fought at for the rest of his career. Just ignore the scales.

Good to know.

[oogiebe]

I see.
When Duran moves up, huge achievement. When Leonard does, it doesn't count.
If a guy you like wins any sort of title, it's a big achievement. When Leonard does it, not a big achievement.
When Duran wins by three points on your own scorecard, it's an ass whipping.
When Leonard wins by TKO8 over Duran, not an ass whipping.
A fighter stays at the weight that he originally fought at for the rest of his career. Just ignore the scales.

Good to know.

Leonard was smarter than Duran and managed his career better too. Leonard has the better wins. What are you going on about?

[Ambling Alp II]

I was pointing to what elmer has said and showing how hypocritical he is.

[oogiebe]

I was pointing to what elmer has said and showing how hypocritical he is.

Oh I see. You've made your point well. It's ok to disagree.

[Nile4000]

You guys are arguing 'the better' between two of the greatest prize fighters the game has ever witnessed.

You guys have put yourself in a position where you are bad mouthing Leonard and Duran's careers.

Here's a simple assessment; in Montreal Duran wanted it more, in New Orleans Leonard. The results speak for themselves.

True, but also Roberto had Ray scared shitless.

[Ambling Alp II]

Come on.

[oogiebe]

Come on.

I don't buy the Ray was scared theory. Ray's ego made him fight Duran's fight and that's why he lost. He thought he could out tough him and beat him at his own game.

[Onetimeonly]

I don't buy the Ray was scared theory. Ray's ego made him fight Duran's fight and that's why he lost. He thought he could out tough him and beat him at his own game.

He had no choice how to fight that fight.

[oogiebe]

He had no choice how to fight that fight.

Sure he could have.