Dempsey vrs Willard /fight film/100th anniversary(1919)

[APerno]

just imagine Tex Rickard himself singing these songs to Jack Dempsey as he was hitting the Heavy Bag,shadow-boxing etc.

They used the song K-K-K-Katie in a film called Tin Pan Ally (1940).

Staring: Betty Grable, Alice Faye, Jack Oakie, John Payne, and Allen Jenkins.

I mention it because it opens with a pretty well staged fight scene. (John Payne).

My Dad served in the Air Corp with Payne (WWII, 441st Troop Carrier, 99 Squadron) he says the guy was a real prick and no one liked him. But I always make it a point of watching John Payne films, and then telling him all about them anyway, just to bust balls.

But Payne does a pretty good job playing a boxer, better than most; the film ends with the two main characters writing the song K-K-K-Katie and making it big.

[APerno]

I found one more piece of info; Willard chose the Southeast corner, (New York Times) if that helps you orient.

When you look at the film that makes sense. The camera (the film machine*) is west of the ring so that would put Willard in the far right hand corner, where of course he is. He collapses in the Southwest corner at the end of the first round.


* I get a kick out of how they refer to the cameras as film machines.

[APerno]

Tonight Toledo is wild with joy over the results of the fight, as Dempsey has made himself extremely popular here. Enthusiastic rooters are parading the town, and jollification is in the air." (New York Times)

"Paraders wearing hat bands on which were printed "I Told You So" marched through the streets, while here and there a woeful face told the tragedy of a man who had bet heavily on Willard." (New York Times)

When was the last time you heard someone use the word "jollification"?

[APerno]

Not finding much on vendors, but here is one.

New York Times, July 5th, 1919

Cooling Drinks in Demand

"The distributors of cooling drinks found it unnecessary to urge the merits of their wares. They were constantly surrounded by thirsty men, already superheated by even the short walk from automobile or trolley car. Some peddlers had gone to the unnecessary trouble of coloring their anaemic [sic] lemonade or shrub [sic] or pop some vivid hue or other, usually red, in accord with circus traditions. It may have been a labor of love with them. In any event it was a wasted effort, for this half-broiled crowd would have gulped down beverages colored like a crow's wing or mustered plaster without even a glance."

[APerno]

Same article on the bands that played. Not much sorry.

"There wasn't much to engage attention until the preliminary bouts began, . . . A brass band or two made spasmodic efforts to elevate the spirits of the multitude, but there didn't seem to be much pep in their jazz, and their reception was apathetic."

[APerno]

New York Times, July 5th, 1919 (A different article than the above quotes.)

"Major A. J. Drexel, who was one of the judges of the big fight, brought a squad of Marines into the ring before the main bout and put them through a bayonet drill. Major Biddle is on a recruiting campaign for the Marines. The boys showed all the boxing tactics such as ducking, feinting and side-stepping, which are so valuable in bayonet fighting. Biddle took a hand at it himself and showed how the Marines do their fighting with knives and automatics. In the pantomime fight, Biddle knocked out four Marines. In a Marine wrestling match, Biddle did even better. He threw twelve Marines all in one fell swoop."

[APerno]

OK same article but this one is really strange. There is no more info explaining what they were doing, see if you can figure it out. I can't!

"Five sharpshooters were perched in the little lookout station with the motion-picture cameras.* Frank M. hall of New York was in charge of the camera men, and they picked off everything in range."

What the hell are they talking about? "Sharpshooters" -- Are they talking about rifles or cameras? -- Were they shooting birds out of the sky?


*Hey this guy used the word 'camera.'

[APerno]

OK one more.

It seems there were three photographers in a hot air balloon that broke free from its mooring and started to drift upward. The newspaper men panicked and pulled the release cord and came tumbling back to Earth unharmed, but scared. They landed in a near by lake and had to be pulled from the water by a passing boat. I wonder what water they speak of?

Guess we could have had some bird-eyes views of the ring, wonder if they got off any shots.

I am starting to think there is much the reenactment people can work with.

[APerno]

I think I figured out the "sharpshooters" -- I think it was a typo. It definitely says "sharpshooters" but at a different location in the article there is a mention of some "snapshooting" (still camera photographers).

Now that makes sense. I think it is a typo, maybe. --- Hell of a typo for an editor to let get pass him.

[APerno]

OK, last one I promise.

After the preliminary bouts Jess Willard insisted that the ring canvas be switched out with a new one, he was concerned that the preliminary fighters sweat may have made the ring slippery. It looks like that may have caused some of the delay, not just the heat.

[Caractacus]

What is interesting is that the Dempsey vrs Willard fight footage was even banned from being shown in the state of Ohio
which was the only place it could have been legally shown at the cinema and other places in 1919.
It was under wraps for 20 years until it mysteriously showed up again in late 1939 just when the ban on inter-transportation of Fight films
was about to be repealed in July 1940..
The newspapers did a story on its resurfacing and published some frame blow-ups

'Dempsey Fight Seen Again"
NEW YORK TIMES November.17.1939

"Dempsey-Willard fight Films "Lost" For Many Years
New York Post-November.19.1939


also some of the newly surfaced fight footage appeared in the 1941 film THE GREAT AMERICAN BROADCAST,
which was about the first radio broadcast of a boxing match,were they recreated the event by editing the footage with sound effects and studio crowd scenes reacting.
The footage was the high-lights of the movie of course
here is a Radio promotion for the film.

[APerno]

New York Times, July 20th 1919

"The new title holder today possesses a substantial sum derived from the cinema exhibitors, who purchased his end of the motion pictures of the bout on July 4. Jess wasn't so wideawake, [sic] even before the bout, for he gave this end of the $100,000 transaction little, if any thought. As a result Dempsey isn't losing any sleep as to whether the films are ever permitted to be screened in Ohio or not. The same cannot be said of Kansas Jess."

There certainly must have been a dispute over the film being presented but I haven't been able to find out who wanted it stopped. It was likely some form of progressive reformer group at work but sometimes there is also an underlying agenda at work at well.

E.g. The 1912 Sims Act, the prohibition of transporting fight films across State lines was as much motivated by cutting off Jack Johnson's revenue streams as it was about halting racial violence. That's why the law didn't appear until two years after the violence in 1910. Stopping the racial violence was IMO nothing more than a fig-leaf to disguise what was actually an attempt to starve Johnson out of the title.

I wonder if there wasn't still some animosity towards Big Jess for his refusal to serve during the War? He was wearing the slacker label before Dempsey, and couldn't get any State to accept his Fulton fight back in 1918. There was quite a lot of embitterment towards his refusal to serve.

http://www.perno.com/history/slacker.html

[HomicideHenry]

I remember reading ages ago how Willard was involved in a circus, maybe Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show, and a reporter asked him why he wasn't fighting in the war and his claim was he already tried to enlist but was turned down because he was too big.

When the government saw that interview, they released an official statement saying that they'd gladly accept the world's champion to serve in combat and never seen Willard therefore couldn't have dismissed him in the first place. That's when the public really began to turn on him.

It's a bit ironic but in today's military, at least in the Marines, they won't accept anyone over 6'5". Because height is seen as a liability. Probably is the same in the Navy and Airforce. Army I imagine accepts most everybody.

[APerno]

I remember reading ages ago how Willard was involved in a circus, maybe Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show, and a reporter asked him why he wasn't fighting in the war and his claim was he already tried to enlist but was turned down because he was too big.

When the government saw that interview, they released an official statement saying that they'd gladly accept the world's champion to serve in combat and never seen Willard therefore couldn't have dismissed him in the first place. That's when the public really began to turn on him.

It's a bit ironic but in today's military, at least in the Marines, they won't accept anyone over 6'5". Because height is seen as a liability. Probably is the same in the Navy and Airforce. Army I imagine accepts most everybody.

Yea that's what the link I posted is about. -- On one hand you really can't blame Willard it was time for him to cash in, he was making either $500 or $1000 a week in the Wild West (Circus) Show. The mistake Willard made was trying to squeeze some cheap publicity out of the War by claiming he wanted to fight, but then gave the "I'm too big" BS story to the press. That's when he got called out by the Army recruiter in Chicago. If he had just stayed quiet there probably wouldn't have been a stink. One has to accept that Willard was never the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[HomicideHenry]

He's something of an odd character in boxing history. He never liked boxing. He hated being champion, but he loved the money that came with it. He disliked the media as well as the fans. He wasn't a very personable guy.

[Caractacus]

check out this article.

http://www.boxing.com/the_horror_jess_w ... uries.html

[Chuck1052]

In fairness, Jess Willard had a wife, and at least five children under ten years of age at the time that the U.S. entered World War I on the side of the Allies during 1917. In other words, Jess probably would have got an exemption from the draft without any trouble.

- Chuck Johnston

[Caractacus]

He's something of an odd character in boxing history. He never liked boxing. He hated being champion, but he loved the money that came with it. He disliked the media as well as the fans. He wasn't a very personable guy.

He probably wasn't very personable long before he put on any boxing gloves.
Money and Fame aint going to change that (much anyway).

[APerno]

In fairness, Jess Willard had a wife and at least five children under ten years of age at the time that the U.S. entered World War I on the side of the Allies during 1917. In other words, Jess probably would have got an exemption from the draft without any trouble.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

I agree, I never wanted to suggest that he was actually a slacker. He wasn't going anywhere. He wasn't going to be drafted! His guilt, IMO lies in that he tried to get a cheap publicity opportunity out of it and got called on it. Had he just stayed quiet he would have gone unnoticed; Captain Kenney who called him out was ready to make him a Reserve Officer and he was to train troops in hand-to-hand. There was no deployment overseas mentioned.

I also believe he caused the Dempsey flap, because as soon as he was out, the press went looking for Dempsey's (lack of) service because Willard made it an issue. I believe again had it not been an issue with Willard it is unlikely it would have become an issue with Dempsey. (Of course the whole wife-desertion thing would have got legs under it anyway; because she wasn't going to miss out on a big pay-day.)

[Caractacus]

check out this article.

http://www.boxing.com/the_horror_jess_w ... uries.html

reportedly Willard had 5 (or 6) teeth knocked out in that fight.
what is Willards account of how the fight went?
or did he even remember what happened t after the first knockdown ?
what went thru his mind when he found his huge frame on the canvas ?

[APerno]

The Rock Island Argus July 3rd 1919

[APerno]

Rock Island Argus July 3rd 1919

[Caractacus]

The Rock Island Argus July 3rd 1919

so before the "Wepner Whopper"
there was a Willard Whopper ?
Going to have to study what little there is of his fight films
and look for it.

[Caractacus]

I rented the DVD of THE GREAT AMERICAN BROADCAST (1941)
starring Alice Faye and Cesar Romero
the other day,just to see for myself how the Dempsey vrs Willard film footage was used in it.
and it was used pretty darn good for a re-creation of the fight.(using editing of sound effects and a crowd re-acting to it)
The main film of 1941 was in 35 mm of course but when it jumps to the fight clips
the film stock looks grainy,as if it was transferred from a 16 mm print or maybe one of those smaller film stocks
that was made in the 1920's for home movie projections.
anyway it was exciting (last about 5 minutes) in the film itself
and watching it on a Big screen TV,When Dempsey lands that first left that floors Willard , it almost looked like someone did a shotgun blast to Willards head
and my guess the release of this footage in 1941 in a big motion picture to a wide audience once again made Jack Dempsey
into a celebrity once the entire Nation got a chance to see film of him actually fighting
(they would have only read accounts of it back then in the newspapers.
Jack Dempsey opened his first resturant in 1935 across from the old Madison Square Garden on 49th street
His Resturant moved to the Brill Building on Broadway in 1947.

[Caractacus]

well, is anyone on here going to be there in Toledo Ohio next week or what ?