Strange goings on

chinarich · Post by **chinarich** » 02 Jun 2019, 08:54

If AJ can come back well, then a defeat doesn’t have to be the be all and end all. Although the manner of this defeat will be a bit harder to erase than a single punch KO à la Lewis-Rahman it can be done...

I would advise against an immediate rematch, fight someone at a lower level because (although there wasn’t a world title at stake) instant rematch didn’t work well for David Price...

polecateddy · Post by **polecateddy** » 02 Jun 2019, 08:55

He definitely seemed to look very jaded, and I wonder how much his heart is still in it. It a very demanding sport, and he might just feel in his heart of hearts he wants to do other things. Mentally he doesn't seem in the same place as say Lennox Lewis, who made it very clear the set backs were nothing more than blips to be overcome. It looked like Ruiz just had Joshua's number in there, and really is going into an immediate rematch particularly wise.

keirw · Post by **keirw** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:02

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 08:48 I wouldn't say it's necessarily nonsense.

Wladimir was inactive and older. The fact that it was so brutal is telling. Parker basically was being effed around by the referee in there. Povetkin was 39 and hadn't been the same guy since being busted for PEDs.

I think all telltale signs were there but people got caught up in the "magic" of it all. Joshua, in many ways, is the first Instagram boxer. A social media phenomenon with the unrealistic body image, etc.

But I do think comparisons to someone like Price are somewhat valid. I remember before the Thompson fight I said he'd lose. People thought I was crazy. But I insisted, "If Matt Skelton an old man can momentarily hurt him, then Thompson is going to school him like Jack Johnson."

It's somewhat the same thing with AJ. He was just positioned better than anyone else I've ever seen in heavyweight history. He had all the breaks. He had everything his way.

Take that away from him--- he was an accident waiting to happen. And I know many won't accept it. Once they're back in England they'll say that he was sick, that he's been having issues mentally, etc--- and people will believe it, just like people wanted to believe Price losing to Thompson was a fluke and eagerly awaited the rematch only to be heartbroken again.

These promoters, making it impossible for the top guys to really fight each other often, keeping themselves sharp and getting better--- instead has made a division of men who have been carried & protected. This is what happens when it's all business and not enough about the fighting.

It was clear as day that Joshua wasn't himself last night. It's not an excuse, Ruiz was the better man on the night and I am happy for him. His tactics were spot on.

Comparing him to Price is very harsh, Price fell to pieces the first time someone punched back and still hasn't really recovered from it.

Joshua has been hit hard by bigger punches before and although is far from invincible, he always seemed robust enough to stay on his feet against anything other than a huge banger.

Let's face it, even Joshua's biggest detractors are surprised by the nature of the defeat, that tells it's own story.

On a side note, I think he needs to have an immediate rematch or someone else will get to Ruiz and beat him, I can see Wilder, Fury or even Whyte making offers to face Ruiz next if Joshua hasn't got him locked down in a rematch clause.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:15

keirw wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 09:02 Joshua has been hit hard by bigger punches before and although is far from invincible, he always seemed robust enough to stay on his feet against anything other than a huge banger.

Let's face it, even Joshua's biggest detractors are surprised by the nature of the defeat, that tells it's own story.

I think the difference is, while Whyte and Wladimir were able to hit him with a big shot, Ruiz was able to hit him repeatedly. Ruiz has good fundamentals, whereas Whyte was wild and unprofessional, Wlad safety first and very predictable. Ruiz was focussed, and poised to capitalise on the slightest mistake. Joshua looked wary after about a minute in the ring with him.

Nightmare Roy · Post by **Nightmare Roy** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:40

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 05:58

Something of a self fulfilling prophecy, no?

Ruiz is a straight hustler, almost playing the star stuck fanboy

ewenhay · Post by **ewenhay** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:45

That's brilliant. Hearn isn't sure what to make of it all but he knows he doesn't like it!

leejonesjnr · Post by **leejonesjnr** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:48

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 09:40 Ruiz is a straight hustler, almost playing the star stuck fanboy

Malignaggi said similar

WildWaylon · Post by **WildWaylon** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:48

Preview: Re: Strange goings on

I said to my wife and others yesterday, I thought an upset was likely. Joshua didnt convince me he was taking Ruiz seriously enough. He had plans beyond this fight and he was too focussed on that than putting everything into his fight with Ruiz. I think he thought Ruiz was just another fighter who he believed he could beat without too much trouble. Once he realised Ruiz was a lot better than he thought he would be, he lost his confidence. Ruiz had all the answers and AJ seemed to have none. Joshua wasn't ill, he was in against a fighter who he couldn't handle. Ruiz will deal with any come forward fighter which makes me think Fury would beat him on points with his in and out footwork. Ruiz had the will and the right tactics, its as simple as that.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:57

Well there seems to be plenty of speculation on either side. Maybe Joshua was indeed exposed last night, or maybe he was ill and not himself from the start.

A rematch will surely provide the answers.

leejonesjnr · Post by **leejonesjnr** » 02 Jun 2019, 09:59

Well, whatever the reason behind it I’m quite pleased.
I don’t like the artificial image portrayed by Joshua and Ruiz pulling off an upset makes the division much more interesting all of a sudden and adds something fresh to the endless ‘Wilder is the best/Joshua is/ Fury is/ this person is ducking that person’ etc

leejonesjnr · Post by **leejonesjnr** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:00

Kilburn wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 09:57 Well there seems to be plenty of speculation on either side. Maybe Joshua was indeed exposed last night, or maybe he was ill and not himself from the start.

A rematch will surely provide the answers.

Maybe he wasn’t exposed or sick, maybe he just lost.

Nondescript · Post by **Nondescript** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:04

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... Hearn.html

Interesting story. AJ's dad does not look happy at all

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:06

leejonesjnr wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 10:00 Maybe he wasn’t exposed or sick, maybe he just lost.

If Joshua was fully fit I can't see how he avoids the exposed label, given how easily he was supposed to defend his belts.

It's not like he's still a developing fighter is it

keirw · Post by **keirw** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:24

overhand_right wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 09:15 I think the difference is, while Whyte and Wladimir were able to hit him with a big shot, Ruiz was able to hit him repeatedly. Ruiz has good fundamentals, whereas Whyte was wild and unprofessional, Wlad safety first and very predictable. Ruiz was focussed, and poised to capitalise on the slightest mistake. Joshua looked wary after about a minute in the ring with him.

I'm taking nothing away from Ruiz, he fought an excellent fight, he and his team clearly studied Joshua closely.

It was no coincidence that he landed most of his best shots straight after Joshua landed something. Gamelan was excellent.

I just feel that an in form Joshua would have sussed Ruiz out after a few rounds and took control of the fight by the mid way point.

People are making out that Joshua is a bum and just got found out by the first decent fighter he faced, and it just isn't true.

He had a bad night in the office, Ruiz took full advantage of it.

leejonesjnr · Post by **leejonesjnr** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:28

Kilburn wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 10:06 If Joshua was fully fit I can't see how he avoids the exposed label, given how easily he was supposed to defend his belts.

It's not like he's still a developing fighter is it

Perhaps, people throw around all kinds of labels but it doesn’t necessarily have any baring on the truth. ‘Ducker’, ‘exposed’, ‘lineal champion’ etc.

Covfefe · Post by **Covfefe** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:30

keirw wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 10:24 I'm taking nothing away from Ruiz, he fought an excellent fight, he and his team clearly studied Joshua closely.

It was no coincidence that he landed most of his best shots straight after Joshua landed something. Gamelan was excellent.

I just feel that an in form Joshua would have sussed Ruiz out after a few rounds and took control of the fight by the mid way point.

People are making out that Joshua is a bum and just got found out by the first decent fighter he faced, and it just isn't true.

He had a bad night in the office, Ruiz took full advantage of it.

It’s like a seesaw. There has been over the top praise of Joshua from some people and now he’s lost it’s swung fully the other way, and people are enjoying laying it on thick. Things will level out in a few days to a week and the comments will get more even and probably closer to the truth.

The idea he lost to the first decent fighter he’s faced is laughable. Those saying it know it too.

Oiky · Post by **Oiky** » 02 Jun 2019, 10:32

Few folk reckon Joshua couldlve been sparked in sparring a few weeks ago...what you's reckon? Couldlve bin

started cagey & didn't look v confident

Either way,Joshua is just not as good as people reckoned he was,what more can be said

TheGman · Post by **TheGman** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:06

Nondescript wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 08:07 One thing I will say- I don't think Joshua ever really wanted to fight in the states. He always has seemed at his happiest, in his comfort zone fighting in the UK.

I feel like he only really did it as a favour to Hearn because of what Eddie is trying to do with DAZN.

Pressure from the U.S. press and some fighters,I dont understand why he had to go the states,he was the champion,he is a massive draw in the UK and it could all be over now. This was bound to come at some point and I feel if he was fighting Wilder he would still be asleep now. Iv always had the sway in my mind after each fight of who woukd win AJ or Wilder but after the last couple of fights iv thought wilder would smash him within 3 rounds.

Grilling Machine · Post by **Grilling Machine** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:07

dalcumly wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 07:41Would anybody like to name a boxer in the top ten who you think couldn't beat Ruiz?

You've followed the sport to know better than that, mate. Takam gave Joshua some problems, as did Povetkin, and now Ruiz has gone one better and beaten him. It's a pattern that says AJ struggles with shorter opponents, and when they don't go into a shell under fire it upsets his trigger finger. Ruiz didn't panic, he just rolled and returned fire unless AJ connected, in which case he took a step back and reset.

Maybe it's a case of Rahman-Lewis, and AJ overlooked him and can turn this around next time, but it's no great surprise to me that the fitter, faster, shorter man with better combinations won. He has AJ's recipe: keep calm under pressure and be brave enough to throw counters; keep moving your low head; and keep cutting off the ring with good work until Joshua's stamina comes into play. I thought Ruiz's reach would be too short, but his speed made up for it (we saw this to a lesser extent from Parker).

I still think that AJ represents a big risk for Fury, at the same time as thinking that Ruiz won't have a long reign as champ. Joshua-Whyte II's a whole lot tastier now. I would pick Ruiz to beat Chisora, Dubois and Gorman, though. He's a proven contender and the current champ, whereas the latter pair haven't hit the world scene yet.

cormack · Post by **cormack** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:08

100 % agree
From the walk to the ring onwards something just wasnt " normal "
all the talking in the corner when fighters usually just suck in air and take a rest
The left hand down by the hip and having to be told by the trainer to keep it up
asking which punch put him down

really weird performance .

When he was hurt by klitchko / whyte / povetkin it spurred him on to a better performance yet last night he folded .

wouldnt surprise me if something leaks out about sparring etc in the build up

Grilling Machine · Post by **Grilling Machine** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:17

stevec@france wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 11:08When he was hurt by klitchko / whyte / povetkin it spurred him on to a better performance yet last night he folded .

He looked knackered more than hurt approaching the end, and was dropping his right hand in the last round. We know from his sprinting on Superstars that he's a fast-twitch guy, so maybe it's as simple as too little cardio because he expected to boss the smaller man?

That's my guess.

And I had good vibes from Ruiz before the fight, because he didn't look shook as per most AJ opponents. Mentally he's strong enough to perform to the height of what his body allows, so although his ceiling's lower than most heavies', he reaches it. I've long felt that Joshua's most fun-to-watch fights will happen after he's lost, as he's lost his Tyson aura now.

cormack · Post by **cormack** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:20

shouldnt have been knackered after that !

they both took rests in the 4th & 5th
and it wasnt exactly toe to to

Grilling Machine · Post by **Grilling Machine** » 02 Jun 2019, 11:25

Shouldn't have been knackered, but to all the world he seemed it. Had I walked in and watched the last round only, I'd have said Ruiz had been hammering him to the body from his appearance.

If he has the motivation to come back stronger then I think his career'll be more fun after this.

Nightmare Roy · Post by **Nightmare Roy** » 02 Jun 2019, 13:02

Nondescript wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 10:04 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... Hearn.html

Interesting story. AJ's dad does not look happy at all

Makes you wonder what’s happened behind the scenes, was he unwell physically or mentally and felt pressured to fight by Hearn? Had a matchmaker or his trainer said all along that Ruiz was all wrong for AJ? Something has definitely happened for him to react like that.

TheGman · Post by **TheGman** » 02 Jun 2019, 13:44

Nondescript wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 10:04 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... Hearn.html

Interesting story. AJ's dad does not look happy at all

Didnt like the way AJ was hovering around in the background of the Ruiz interview then gegged in took the mic and started asking for a round of applause? This wasnt wembley,you didnt win,it wasnt a fluke defeat,gtfo the mic and wait your turn,the champ was having an interview, this is boxing not the AJ show.