Is Anthony Joshua among the top ten HWs since 2000 ?

[ewenhay]

Seems like you think losing to Brewster, purity and sanders, almost losing to Peter, labouring to a frightful UD against the ordinary Ibragimov and getting decked by the likes of Steve Pannell and Davarryl Williamson is better

You see this is the problem with Wlad’s career assessment and trying to make an argument for his career to be a notch above AJ’s. Whatever holes you try and pick in AJ’s resume, there’s always something a lot more embarrassing in Wlad’s.

And Joshua still probably has 6 or more good years left.

But thats the problem.

You're choosing to focus on Klitschko's early defeats and ignore his ten year unbeaten run later.

Your second mistake is assuming that Joshua will have a flawless next 6 years. You can't measure achievements on maybes.

And I'm no Klitschko fan. But fair is fair.

[greg]

....

And Joshua still probably has 6 or more good years left.

it certainly remains to be seen how "good" those good years will be..I actually don't mind occasional losses..the problem this time was that AJ actually gave up, he turned around, went to his corner and showed no desire to continue...

[Bard of Boxrec]

But thats the problem.

You're choosing to focus on Klitschko's early defeats and ignore his ten year unbeaten run later.

Your second mistake is assuming that Joshua will have a flawless next 6 years. You can't measure achievements on maybes.

And I'm no Klitschko fan. But fair is fair.

Why do you think it’s ok to just forgive him the part of his career when he was an absolute disaster? That’s not how comparing fighters works. You can’t pick and choose the parts of his career you want to be relevant.

The worst you have on Joshua is he struggled vs povetkin (not really) and went life or death with wlad when anyone with eyes could see that wlad actually performed really well in that one and could have beaten pretty much anyone else in the division that night.

[ewenhay]

Why do you think it’s ok to just forgive him the part of his career when he was an absolute disaster? That’s not how comparing fighters works. You can’t pick and choose the parts of his career you want to be relevant.

The worst you have on Joshua is he struggled vs povetkin (not really) and went life or death with wlad when anyone with eyes could see that wlad actually performed really well in that one and could have beaten pretty much anyone else in the division that night.

Your measurement criteria is different to mine do we'll never agree.

Your measurement is subjective.

Mine is based on achievements. Joshua hasn't finished his career yet. If he stopped tomorrow then Klitschko wins hands down. If Joshua wins back the title and retains it for a few years as a dominant champion I'll think again.

[HomicideHenry]

Joshua's what, 29?

Klitschko was born in 1976 and turned pro in 1996. 20 years old. In 2004 at age 29 he was already WBO champion and had the losses to Purity (1998), Sanders (2003) & Brewster (2004).

From '96-'04 he defeated former champions Ray Mercer, Chris Byrd, Frans Botha, Axel Schulz, as well as contenders Jameel McCline, Charles Shufford, Derrick Jefferson, David Bostice, Monte Barrett and Paea Wolfgramm.

Did I forget to mention he won (2000) the WBO title at the age of 24? Did I forget to mention he won not just the European title but the WBA-International the year (1999) before? Joshua was 28 when he finally reached world level. Hell Joshua was still British level at age 26, and was given the IBF title on a silver platter. He skipped a level or two altogether: And this may have been his undoing.

Before losing to Sanders he was not only the #1 contender to Lennox Lewis he was 40-1-0. That's when he was garbage, as you say. After Brewster, he wouldn't lose again until Tyson Fury (2015) and two years later to Anthony Joshua (2017).

From Brewster to Fury.... 22 straight wins... 17 by way of knockout.... 20 of the 22 were title fights... 9 of those were against former or current champions Samuel Peter (2x), Hasim Rahman, Jean Marc Mormeck, David Haye, Sultan Ibragimov, Ruslan Chagaev, Chris Byrd and Lamon Brewster.... The contenders were a mixed bag, however, Klitschko absolutely embarrassed the prime Povetkin & annihilated prime Pulev.

How many fights has Joshua in total again? 22. Wins the title from an older, inactive Klitschko in a life and death struggle... 3 defenses and loses it to a 15-1 underdog.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Where do I even start with that. I guess it’s significant you had to mention pea wolfgramm , the corpse of Frans Botha , Bostice, shufford, Barrett . WBA International!

Noting that Wlad rolled through a gigantic list of stiffs and no-marks shouldn’t contribute to him being considered the better career. That Joshua achieved a similar level in fewer fights should qualify him more, not less. Name me one fighter from klitschko’s resume that Wlad beat that Joshua wouldn’t have?

[ewenhay]

Joshua's what, 29?

Klitschko was born in 1976 and turned pro in 1996. 20 years old. In 2004 at age 29 he was already WBO champion and had the losses to Purity (1998), Sanders (2003) & Brewster (2004).

From '96-'04 he defeated former champions Ray Mercer, Chris Byrd, Frans Botha, Axel Schulz, as well as contenders Jameel McCline, Charles Shufford, Derrick Jefferson, David Bostice, Monte Barrett and Paea Wolfgramm.

Did I forget to mention he won (2000) the WBO title at the age of 24? Did I forget to mention he won not just the European title but the WBA-International the year (1999) before? Joshua was 28 when he finally reached world level. Hell Joshua was still British level at age 26, and was given the IBF title on a silver platter. He skipped a level or two altogether: And this may have been his undoing.

Before losing to Sanders he was not only the #1 contender to Lennox Lewis he was 40-1-0. That's when he was garbage, as you say. After Brewster, he wouldn't lose again until Tyson Fury (2015) and two years later to Anthony Joshua (2017).

From Brewster to Fury.... 22 straight wins... 17 by way of knockout.... 20 of the 22 were title fights... 9 of those were against former or current champions Samuel Peter (2x), Hasim Rahman, Jean Marc Mormeck, David Haye, Sultan Ibragimov, Ruslan Chagaev, Chris Byrd and Lamon Brewster.... The contenders were a mixed bag, however, Klitschko absolutely embarrassed the prime Povetkin & annihilated prime Pulev.

How many fights has Joshua in total again? 22. Wins the title from an older, inactive Klitschko in a life and death struggle... 3 defenses and loses it to a 15-1 underdog.

Great post Henry but they'll choose to ignore it.

[ewenhay]

Where do I even start with that. I guess it’s significant you had to mention pea wolfgramm , the corpse of Frans Botha , Bostice, shufford, Barrett . WBA International!

Noting that Wlad rolled through a gigantic list of stiffs and no-marks shouldn’t contribute to him being considered the better career. That Joshua achieved a similar level in fewer fights should qualify him more, not less. Name me one fighter from that list that Wlad beat that Joshua wouldn’t have?

Your basing your entire argument on your belief that Joshua would beat everyone that Klitschko did. That's just fantasy stuff.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Great post Henry but they'll choose to ignore it.

Well I answered to it immediately and it really wasn’t difficult

[ewenhay]

Well I answered to it immediately and it really wasn’t difficult

And you did choose to ignore it because your entire argument is based on a fantasy, your belief that Joshua would beat everyone that Klitschko fought.

[Bard of Boxrec]

And you did choose to ignore it because your entire argument is based on a fantasy, your belief that Joshua would beat everyone that Klitschko fought.

No, that’s not my entire argument at all, if you bothered to read my posts. But it is somewhat significant . I’ll see if you actually can name someone. You’ll probably say Pulev or similar

[ewenhay]

No, that’s not my entire argument at all, if you bothered to read my posts. But it is somewhat significant . I’ll see if you actually can name someone. You’ll probably say Pulev or similar

It's not significant at all.

You can't give him credit for something he hasn't achieved that someone else has or give him credit for something he might achieve in the future but hasn't yet.

[ewenhay]

The basis of your argument is....

Joshua would have beaten everyone that Klitschko did because I say so

Joshua will beat everyone over the next 6 years because I think so.

My 8 year old has more sense than that.

[Bard of Boxrec]

It's not significant at all.

You can't give him credit for something he hasn't achieved that someone else has or give him credit for something he might achieve in the future but hasn't yet.

It is absolutely significant because it directly relates to respective quality of opposition .

[ewenhay]

It is absolutely significant because it directly relates to respective quality of opposition .

Except you're overinflating Joshua's opposition and writing off Klitschko's. There are plenty opposition on Klitschko's record that have similar or in lots of cases better reputations than Joshua's

[ewenhay]

It is absolutely significant because it directly relates to respective quality of opposition .

I think suggesting that the guy who just lost to a rank outsider like Ruiz would beat the 50 guys that Klitschko did is a tad presumptious.

Especially when the guy concerned went life and death with the 40 year old version of the guy you're comparing him with.

[HomicideHenry]

Noting that Wlad rolled through a gigantic list of stiffs and no-marks shouldn’t contribute to him being considered the better career. That Joshua achieved a similar level in fewer fights should qualify him more, not less. Name me one fighter from klitschko’s resume that Wlad beat that Joshua wouldn’t have?

I'll name you a couple.

He sure as hell wouldn't have been able to do anything with David Haye. If Wladimir Klitschko couldn't put him away, Joshua definitely isn't. Haye was faster than Andy Ruiz and a proven puncher. When Wilder was just a year away from being champion himself, Haye was knocking him around with over hands in the gym.

He certainly wasn't going to muscle around Corrie Sanders. If Klitschko got blown out, it's a given Joshua probably would too. Sanders was a fast handed southpaw with a solid chin. Arguably the most underrated heavyweight of his time.

Lamon Brewster, before getting his retina detached, was no joke. He could take a punch and he hit hella hard. Klitschko fell in five. I see a similar fate for Joshua. Point blank.

I could argue Samuel Peter too. Maybe even Chris Byrd. Both relatively short guys. One all power, the other all skill. Maybe Joshua beats them. Maybe he doesn't. If Ruiz was NEVER regarded as some big puncher, I'm certain Peter's going to drop Joshua just like he did Wladimir. Byrd beat alot of tall men, alot of powerful men. He could make Joshua look like an amateur.

Speaking of amateurs.... I brought up Wolfgramm for a reason.... Klitschko & The Congan Warrior were rivals in the amateurs, just like Joshua & Whyte.... The fact that Klitschko blew away his old foe in less than six minutes, and it took Joshua over 20 minutes to dispatch Whyte explain that stuff to me... And Wolfgramm was twice as big as Whyte!

Lastly... Klitschko EARNED his belts.... Joshua was fed Charles Martin Klitschko didn't face some old, inactive guy to become champion... Joshua barely became champion against a washed up ex champion, and ONLY because the ex champion let him off the hook.... Joshua was POSITIONED to be the champion, and got help as champion (ie, the bullshit referee against Parker) whereas Klitschko simply dominated.

[oogiebe]

As I posted before the loss to Ruiz and now after I say the same thing. The book on AJ is still open. Geez, all but Marciano had at least one loss at HW. Let's see what the lad does moving forward. A stunning comeback would make him greater than some folks thought before. What if we see a true transformation of the holes exposed by Ruiz? He's a talented fighter and he still accomplished great things, including coming off the canvas and KO'ing Wlad, regardless of Wlad's age. He certainly is capable.

[HomicideHenry]

As I posted before the loss to Ruiz and now after I say the same thing. The book on AJ is still open. Geez, all but Marciano had at least one loss at HW. Let's see what the lad does moving forward. A stunning comeback would make him greater than some folks thought before. What if we see a true transformation of the holes exposed by Ruiz? He's a talented fighter and he still accomplished great things, including coming off the canvas and KO'ing Wlad, regardless of Wlad's age. He certainly is capable.

He's capable, yes. Whether an immediate rematch is wise or not is the question of the minute. I don't know of anyone who can make all the proper adjustments in three months or so after such a devastating loss.

Everyone whose an AJ fan compares him to Lennox Lewis. Consider this... there was 7 months between the fights with Rahman, and 8 months between fights with Holyfield, and 2 years between fights with McCall. It took serious time and effort to rebuild the brand.

To just jump straight back as if nothing happened, as if this was just some fluke, and still use the same old tactics as before? Cus that's what'll happen. You can't train someone to change everything or tighten up all loose ends in less than 90 days.

I may be wrong. I'm not a world-class athlete. But I think the granite chinned pepper belly with Kung Fu hands is tailor made for a muscle bound mechanical heavyweight. Joshua could be twice as strong and the outcome wouldn't have changed. Ruiz is tough enough to take one, two, three, just to get that opening and explode all over it.

If Joshua loses, he'll probably be written off by everyone. So was Klitschko. A guy that big and strong, with years ahead of him, he certainly can regroup and one day down the road win another belt. It's just a matter of IF he wants it that badly.

[oogiebe]

He's capable, yes. Whether an immediate rematch is wise or not is the question of the minute. I don't know of anyone who can make all the proper adjustments in three months or so after such a devastating loss.

Everyone whose an AJ fan compares him to Lennox Lewis. Consider this... there was 7 months between the fights with Rahman, and 8 months between fights with Holyfield, and 2 years between fights with McCall. It took serious time and effort to rebuild the brand.

To just jump straight back as if nothing happened, as if this was just some fluke, and still use the same old tactics as before? Cus that's what'll happen. You can't train someone to change everything or tighten up all loose ends in less than 90 days.

I may be wrong. I'm not a world-class athlete. But I think the granite chinned pepper belly with Kung Fu hands is tailor made for a muscle bound mechanical heavyweight. Joshua could be twice as strong and the outcome wouldn't have changed. Ruiz is tough enough to take one, two, three, just to get that opening and explode all over it.

If Joshua loses, he'll probably be written off by everyone. So was Klitschko. A guy that big and strong, with years ahead of him, he certainly can regroup and one day down the road win another belt. It's just a matter of IF he wants it that badly.

First, I'm not an AJ fan, at least he's not my favorite HW today. LL was my favorite all time. Secondly, taking the rematch indicates that his head is in the game and that's a good sign. Thirdly, he has six months to work on what he needs to do which isn't a lot because for the most part, we've seen AJ perform wonderfully in the ring. We've seen him work behind his jab; we've seen him patient in the ring; we've seen AJ make adjustments in the ring; etc. I wouldn't bet against AJ in the rematch. Oh, and remember, he decked Ruiz, which was never done before. He made mental errors in this loss. I don't expect that to happen again.

[HomicideHenry]

Has the fight date been set yet? @ six months training.

[oogiebe]

Has the fight date been set yet? @ six months training.

They said November/December. Five or six months.

[HomicideHenry]

They said November/December. Five or six months.

Until ink on the paper is dry, and all details are released to the public, it's probably best not to get excited on Hearn's word alone.

[oogiebe]

Until ink on the paper is dry, and all details are released to the public, it's probably best not to get excited on Hearn's word alone.

my BvllShVT meter didn't go off on this one.

[pound per pound]

I kind of struggled to put this list together, because Hall-of-Famers like Lennox Lewis didn’t compete much since the turn of the Millenium.

Also, it’s hard to evaluate the sort of fighters worthy of places 8th, 9th & 10th in the list, because the heavyweight division was either weak or sometimes the perceived “better” names didn’t face each other. Any number of fighters could’ve easily taken those slots in my list, such as:

• Hasim Rahman
• John Ruiz
• James Toney
• David Haye
• Nikolay Valuev

However, all these guys were deeply flawed in their own way (as-is Chris Byrd, Kubrat Pulev & Ruslan Chagaev).

Anyway, you guys will probably laugh at my list, but here’s my top ten since 2000:

1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Tyson Fury
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Alexander Povetkin
6. Anthony Joshua
7. Deontay Wilder
8. Chris Byrd
9. Kubrat Pulev
10. Ruslan Chagaev

For the record, longevity on the world scene is one of my main criteria also (such as their world ratings between 2000 through to the end of 2018, hence the reason why Tyson Fury is rated so high).

Deontay Wilder’s rating is a tricky one, because he deserves to be rated highly due to his accomplishments ad longevity, but I’m convinced that a lot of heavyweights could’ve beaten him if they faced each other in their prime (i.e. David Haye, James Toney etc.).

Anyway, I’m looking forward to being aggressively ridiculed for my thoughts!

Pretty good. One more loss from AJ, and he slides back.