Height Advantage at Heavyweight

[HomicideHenry]

He WAS basically coddled. He WAS positioned to the top too fast. Otherwise losses to 15-1 underdogs don't happen unless you substituted training with banged bus loads of Japanese women like Mike Tyson in 1990.

Klitschko let him off the hook. He got the referee to screw up Parker's chances. He fought a 39-year old ex-steroid abuser who only was "bought" as a challenger because he kayoed David Price. A soft touch and a hard sell, but the AJ fanboys bought it hook, line and sinker.

The guy was handled with kid gloves. And losses to 15-1 underdogs just don't happen unless you really were coddled and pushed too fast.... Or you didn't bother training at all. Which is it?

[oogiebe]

Thank You, but perhaps I'm coddling myself with these debates. Elmer is acting as though OJ worst act was lighting up in a No Smoking area and our buddy Henry is acting as though AJ never fought anyone in the division.

Some posts are bizarre. No doubt.

[jamamb]

aj had the deepest resume in the division. no other active hw has beaten as many other contenders and champs. it wasnt for lack of decent opponents that hed lost and hed already beat guy just as good as ruiz.

[oogiebe]

He WAS basically coddled. He WAS positioned to the top too fast. Otherwise losses to 15-1 underdogs don't happen unless you substituted training with banged bus loads of Japanese women like Mike Tyson in 1990.

Klitschko let him off the hook. He got the referee to screw up Parker's chances. He fought a 39-year old ex-steroid abuser who only was "bought" as a challenger because he kayoed David Price. A soft touch and a hard sell, but the AJ fanboys bought it hook, line and sinker.

The guy was handled with kid gloves. And losses to 15-1 underdogs just don't happen unless you really were coddled and pushed too fast.... Or you didn't bother training at all. Which is it?

You're being silly. AJ has fought many top HW's already. More than any other current HW. Regardless of age, when fought they were Top 10's. Wlad; Whyte; Parker; Povetkin; Breazeale; Even Martin (again when he fought him he was a champion and a considered a top HW). He kayoed all of them with the exception of Parker. Losing to Ruiz doesn't change all that. Just like Louis losing to Marciano didn't change his accomplishments; nor Ali vs Frazier/Norton; et al. Stop defending a bad position.

[HomicideHenry]

aj had the deepest resume in the division. no other active hw has beaten as many other contenders and champs. it wasnt for lack of decent opponents that hed lost and hed already beat guy just as good as ruiz.

Can you not admit the possibility that the man jumping from British level to World level MIGHT have cost him the extra experience to not have issues down the road facing guys who don't back down? Who are faster than you? Who show no fear of you?

I'm not saying winning the title in that short of a time wasn't extraordinary. It was. But that's also ignoring the fact he was positioned almost perfectly too.

Fury being stripped of the IBF for no good reason at all was maybe the biggest hail mary Joshua could have ever hoped for--- and Fury retiring out of nowhere, making Klitschko inactive for two years, was also a tremendous asset to Joshua's success.

[Tony1244]

He WAS basically coddled. He WAS positioned to the top too fast. Otherwise losses to 15-1 underdogs don't happen unless you substituted training with banged bus loads of Japanese women like Mike Tyson in 1990.

Klitschko let him off the hook. He got the referee to screw up Parker's chances. He fought a 39-year old ex-steroid abuser who only was "bought" as a challenger because he kayoed David Price. A soft touch and a hard sell, but the AJ fanboys bought it hook, line and sinker.

The guy was handled with kid gloves. And losses to 15-1 underdogs just don't happen unless you really were coddled and pushed too fast.... Or you didn't bother training at all. Which is it?

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/659461

He was brought along perfectly yet quickly. The record above is textbook

Which is it? I really don't know. Perhaps one day we will know. The usual suspects are losing focus due to early success, substance abuse, or injury. Or maybe he just got clocked. It happens.

[jamamb]

who do you think he shouldve fought before getting a title shot then

[oogiebe]

who do you think he shouldve fought before getting a title shot then

Don't feed the beast. Homi is just plain wrong.

[HomicideHenry]

who do you think he shouldve fought before getting a title shot then

He should have probably fought someone like Ortiz. Or at least a few top ten-twenty types. He basically went from fighting Gary Cornish to world elite guys. Maybe had he fought a few tough guys before going after Klitschko, he'd of never lost to an Andy Ruiz.

[oogiebe]

He should have probably fought someone like Ortiz. Or at least a few top ten-twenty types. He basically went from fighting Gary Cornish to world elite guys. Maybe had he fought a few tough guys before going after Klitschko, he'd of never lost to an Andy Ruiz.

LMAO! HE beat all of them that he faced!! He lost to Ruiz. He still beat all those other guys!

[HomicideHenry]

Don't feed the beast. Homi is just plain wrong.

If I'm wrong how come me and some others said that Joshua was an accident waiting to happen? That he'd get exposed eventually by someone willing to take it to him?

We were all "crazy" for saying so then. Now we're all "crazy" for stating the reason why and you still won't accept it.

[HomicideHenry]

LMAO! HE beat all of them that he faced!! He lost to Ruiz. He still beat all those other guys!

So if Joshua loses to Ruiz again are you still going to say he was better than Fury and Wilder? Even if Joshua wins the rematch, what if he loses to Wilder or Fury? Are you still going to say he was better?

[oogiebe]

If I'm wrong how come me and some others said that Joshua was an accident waiting to happen? That he'd get exposed eventually by someone willing to take it to him?

We were all "crazy" for saying so then. Now we're all "crazy" for stating the reason why and you still won't accept it.

That's fine, but you can't discount what AJ did before. I too said he would get exposed someday. So what? He's far from an accident waiting to happen, but I certainly saw flaws. I see flaws in Wilder too. And Fury. AJ got beat. First time. Maybe not the last time, but all those 'coddling' and being "brought along too fast" had nothing to do with it, and frankly make no sense.

[oogiebe]

So if Joshua loses to Ruiz again are you still going to say he was better than Fury and Wilder? Even if Joshua wins the rematch, what if he loses to Wilder or Fury? Are you still going to say he was better?

I never said he was better than Wilder or Fury. Not before, and not now. Dude, where did you get that from?

[Tony1244]

If I'm wrong how come me and some others said that Joshua was an accident waiting to happen? That he'd get exposed eventually by someone willing to take it to him?

We were all "crazy" for saying so then. Now we're all "crazy" for stating the reason why and you still won't accept it.

It's not necessarily that mysterious. AJ is a very good fighter but does not have an A+ chin. Ken Norton was like that too. Another excellent fighter, but if you hit them on the chin, you win.

[HomicideHenry]

That's fine, but you can't discount what AJ did before. I too said he would get exposed someday. So what? He's far from an accident waiting to happen, but I certainly saw flaws. I see flaws in Wilder too. And Fury. AJ got beat. First time. Maybe not the last time, but all those 'coddling' and being "brought along too fast" had nothing to do with it, and frankly make no sense.

It makes more sense that he was brought up too fast, just like Wladimir Klitschko, than to say he was a complete pro who got beat in a fair fight.

If he's a complete pro and the best the division has, then Ambling Alp is certainly correct to say this is one of the weakest eras in history if not the weakest.

I personally don't believe that. I just think he was rushed a little. So was Floyd Patterson. But he's capable of coming back, even if he has back-to-back losses to Ruiz.

[jamamb]

he beat whyte before getting a title shot, still the only guy to beat him

before andy hed fought

wlad
parker
pov
whyte
takam
breazeale
etc

i mean thats like the best opposition in the division pretty much. i think he got careless in trying to finish and paid for it dearly vs an opponent who hurt him and never let him recover. lets see if he learned from that and can turn the tables in a rematch. i think hes already beaten multiple guys better then ruiz

[oogiebe]

It makes more sense that he was brought up too fast, just like Wladimir Klitschko, than to say he was a complete pro who got beat in a fair fight.

If he's a complete pro and the best the division has, then Ambling Alp is certainly correct to say this is one of the weakest eras in history if not the weakest.

I personally don't believe that. I just think he was rushed a little. So was Floyd Patterson. But he's capable of coming back, even if he has back-to-back losses to Ruiz.

I don't even understand your point(s) anymore. Ruiz was the better fighter that night, period. AJ is still amongst the better HW's and he'll be back, which will be good for the division. Thanks.

[oogiebe]

he beat whyte before getting a title shot, still the only guy to beat him

before andy hed fought

wlad
parker
pov
whyte
takam
breazeale
etc

i mean thats like the best opposition in the division pretty much. i think he got careless in trying to finish and paid for it dearly vs an opponent who hurt him and never let him recover. lets see if he learned from that and can turn the tables in a rematch. i think hes already beaten multiple guys better then ruiz

I laid the same thing out several posts ago and never got a response.

[APerno]

I absolutely hate Joshua, but I'm not writing him off just yet. If he's garbage on the basis of such a loss, then so is Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko. That's never been a strong argument, and Joshua's only 29 years old. Before writing people off forever as garbage I'd wait a few more years.

After all.... I'm sure people said the same thing when Louis lost to Schmeling and Dempsey lost to Flynn.... "See! He was nothing! Just nothing!"

I'm more interested in whether a man can come back from such humiliation and be bigger and better than before.

I need to give you are hard time on two points.

I don't think the Lewis comparison works; Lewis got caught; Joshua got outclassed.

Joshua's behavior after the fight, which IMO was very classy, argues he a Mr. Rogers in nature. I for one was quite impressed with his post fight actions/words.

[jamamb]

aj got caught too (on the temple) and was never the same after that, before that he was up 2-0 on all the cards and had scored a hard knockown in the 3rd. i think its not the same thing as if ruiz had been a level above from start to finish and showed that aj couldnt do anything against him

[ewenhay]

he beat whyte before getting a title shot, still the only guy to beat him

before andy hed fought

wlad
parker
pov
whyte
takam
breazeale
etc

i mean thats like the best opposition in the division pretty much. i think he got careless in trying to finish and paid for it dearly vs an opponent who hurt him and never let him recover. lets see if he learned from that and can turn the tables in a rematch. i think hes already beaten multiple guys better then ruiz

Wlad was 40
Parker v Ruiz was close. Parker lost to Whyte
Povetkin was 38/39
Whyte had 2 close fights with Chisora recently and went life and death with Parker
Takam lost to Chisora
Breazeale was blown away by Wilder

It's a good list on paper at first glance but it's a weak list when you turn the page.

It's a weak but competitive era imo.

[APerno]

aj got caught too (on the temple) and was never the same after that, before that he was up 2-0 on all the cards and had scored a hard knockown in the 3rd. i think its not the same thing as if ruiz had been a level above from start to finish and showed that aj couldnt do anything against him

I am guilty of drawing my conclusion from highlights, Internet narratives, and the multiple knockdowns. I did not see the entire fight. I did see the temple shot (highlights) but he was KOed four rounds later. Certainly the effect could have lingered for the rest of the fight. --- Maybe I am wrong saying he 'got outclassed,' but I wouldn't say he 'got caught' either.

[jamamb]

you can spin a negative on anyone ewey, for example luis ortiz is a top contender but hes even older then pov. basically everyone gets ruled out and painted poorly

just like we could say ruiz lost to a guy aj beat widely, couldnt drop shot liakhovich or dimmy, was losing rounds vs johnson

taken like that, even when you do a negative reading of ajs opponents i dont see how his opposition shows someone who was not well prepared and was rushed through without adequate opposition---which is what homis been saying

[oogiebe]

aj got caught too (on the temple) and was never the same after that, before that he was up 2-0 on all the cards and had scored a hard knockown in the 3rd. i think its not the same thing as if ruiz had been a level above from start to finish and showed that aj couldnt do anything against him

Truth. Through the knockdown of Ruiz, it looked like a short night, but with AJ on top. He got caught and he never recovered. Difference was, he kept getting up. Had he gone down and out, the comparisons to Lewis would've been eerily similar. Great point Jam.