Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

[Tony1244]

Meh...the lineal title was big a few decades ago, but no longer. With four organizations, which one do we backtrack to find thee guy that beat the guy? No one cares anymore.

If there is a lineal champion I'd go with Fury. He beat Wlad.

So did AJ. But AJ lost to Ruiz and Fury drew w/Wilder. Which is why I have it Fury, Wilder, Ruiz, AJ in that order.

[SportsRatings]

It bothered me that a few announcers said the Ruiz upset of Joshua was up there with Douglas/Tyson. But if Schwarz beats Fury, is that the biggest HW boxing upset of all time?

Douglas was a legit fighter with some decent wins. And Leon Spinks was a gold medalist.

All Schwarz has is an "0" in the loss column and absolutely nothing of note in the W column. He's the David Rodriguez of the 2010s.

I can't remember a time when someone who had a claim to be champion fought a lesser contender. Floyd Patterson fought 0-0 Pete Rademacher but he was a gold medalist. And yeah, Mayweather fought Conor McGregor but everyone agreed that was a joke done just for the money, and would have been the biggest upset in all of sports history if Mayweather lost.

I was impressed by Fury taking the Wilder fight, but following it up with this is a joke. He should have done this as his first fight back from his coke binge, at least then there would have been some level of interest.

[oogiebe]

It bothered me that a few announcers said the Ruiz upset of Joshua was up there with Douglas/Tyson. But if Schwarz beats Fury, is that the biggest HW boxing upset of all time?

Douglas was a legit fighter with some decent wins. And Leon Spinks was a gold medalist.

All Schwarz has is an "0" in the loss column and absolutely nothing of note in the W column. He's the David Rodriguez of the 2010s.

I can't remember a time when someone who had a claim to be champion fought a lesser contender. Floyd Patterson fought 0-0 Pete Rademacher but he was a gold medalist. And yeah, Mayweather fought Conor McGregor but everyone agreed that was a joke done just for the money, and would have been the biggest upset in all of sports history if Mayweather lost.

I was impressed by Fury taking the Wilder fight, but following it up with this is a joke. He should have done this as his first fight back from his coke binge, at least then there would have been some level of interest.

A Schwarz upset of Fury would no doubt be huge, but I think you have to also consider the situation. A championship fight upset will probably be more stunning as you have the 'best' fighter in the world, so to speak, opinions aside.

[JohnMcMinn]

Meh...the lineal title was big a few decades ago, but no longer. With four organizations, which one do we backtrack to find thee guy that beat the guy? No one cares anymore.

I'm not sure that's really true. I think plenty of people are still interested in the lineal title - at least those who know about it. Lots of modern fans don't actually know what it is. And it's not that hard to backtrack since it really has nothing to do with the four orgs. It's a lot easier to sort out than the mess of ABC belts which is why I regard it more highly. It's much more clearcut and is less likely to involve politics, bribery, corruption, etc. It's not perfect but it beats having four "champions."

[JohnMcMinn]

How come people always make a huge deal out of the lineal title when it comes to heavyweights but it's seldom mentioned in the other weight divisions?

The lineage is a lot more splintered in the lower weight classes. The heavyweight lineage is very clear. The only real confusion is whether you still consider Fury the lineal champ or not, which I personally think it's hard to make the case that he isn't.

[oogiebe]

I'm not sure that's really true. I think plenty of people are still interested in the lineal title - at least those who know about it. Lots of modern fans don't actually know what it is. And it's not that hard to backtrack since it really has nothing to do with the four orgs. It's a lot easier to sort out than the mess of ABC belts which is why I regard it more highly. It's much more clearcut and is less likely to involve politics, bribery, corruption, etc. It's not perfect but it beats having four "champions."

That's the part that has dwindled. And that's because they don't really care. Not in Fury's case anyway. I'm sure there are some, but not enough to make Fury looked upon as anything other than one the top 3/4 hw's in the world today. Fury wasn't beaten, but he also wasn't stripped or the victim of something controversial outside of himself. He gave up the belts voluntarily.

[Ruthless-RKO]

I'm not sure that's really true. I think plenty of people are still interested in the lineal title - at least those who know about it. Lots of modern fans don't actually know what it is. And it's not that hard to backtrack since it really has nothing to do with the four orgs. It's a lot easier to sort out than the mess of ABC belts which is why I regard it more highly. It's much more clearcut and is less likely to involve politics, bribery, corruption, etc. It's not perfect but it beats having four "champions."

Yeh. I think people are still bothered about it, like when it’s in the background. We all knew Wlad was the Lineal and Ring Belt, along with the ABC belts, the Lineal and Ring is kinda what made him stand out as the main man.

I guess it’s when Fury was finally stripped/vacated and then the Ring belt was stripped, he had no physical belts anymore, so Fury/Frank made a big deal outta the Linea title, as a way to further sell Fury.

Because of the recent complication/debate over who the true Lineal champion is, everyone’s getting annoyed.

It’s like we all know Gvozdyk is the Lineal LHW Champion because he BEAT the man.

Unfortunately, Ring stripped Adonis, but only because he didn’t defend against a top 5 LHW in 2 years.

[JohnMcMinn]

That's the part that has dwindled. And that's because they don't really care. Not in Fury's case anyway. I'm sure there are some, but not enough to make Fury looked upon as anything other than one the top 3/4 hw's in the world today. Fury wasn't beaten, but he also wasn't stripped or the victim of something controversial outside of himself. He gave up the belts voluntarily.

True, but during his retirement the #1 and #2 never fought so a new lineal champ never emerged. And now that Fury is back in action, the title is still his until someone defeats him. Since the announcement of the Wilder fight, Fury has been marketed as such and I think there has been an uptick in interest in the lineal title ever since. It doesn't have a shiny green belt to accompany it though so mainstream fans will never really care.

[oogiebe]

True, but during his retirement the #1 and #2 never fought so a new lineal champ never emerged. And now that Fury is back in action, the title is still his until someone defeats him. Since the announcement of the Wilder fight, Fury has been marketed as such and I think there has been an uptick in interest in the lineal title ever since. It doesn't have a shiny green belt to accompany it though so mainstream fans will never really care.

He gave up the belts. They weren't taken away. Anyway...I don't really care enough to go on. I respect your opinion as always!

[JohnMcMinn]

Yeh. I think people are still bothered about it, like when it’s in the background. We all knew Wlad was the Lineal and Ring Belt, along with the ABC belts, the Lineal and Ring is kinda what made him stand out as the main man.

I guess it’s when Fury was finally stripped/vacated and then the Ring belt was stripped, he had no physical belts anymore, so Fury/Frank made a big deal outta the Linea title, as a way to further sell Fury.

Because of the recent complication/debate over who the true Lineal champion is, everyone’s getting annoyed.

It’s like we all know Gvozdyk is the Lineal LHW Champion because he BEAT the man.

Unfortunately, Ring stripped Adonis, but only because he didn’t defend against a top 5 LHW in 2 years.

That's true, but at the end of the day the Ring belt isn't much more valid than the ABC belts these days. Adonis was still The Man even if he was stripped of the Ring title. Fans just don't like kings without crowns.

[JohnMcMinn]

He gave up the belts. They weren't taken away. Anyway...I don't really care enough to go on. I respect your opinion as always!

Fair enough. He did give up the belts, but he still beat The Man. You can't relinquish that. We can leave it at that for now

[SportsRatings]

lol, you can't "give up" the Lineal belt. It stays with you whether you want it or not.

Even if you retire, it stays with you until it's clear you really mean it. Then fans decide on which fight is for the revived Lineal belt. And even after that fight, if you come back, you magically have the Lineal belt again, as if it never went away. Under best conditions the title is handed off to the new champion, but you have people like Rocky Marciano, Lennox Lewis, so the Lineal belt has to be revived occasionally.

Ali was banned from boxing for 3 years. During that time it was decided that the Frazier - Jimmy Ellis winner deserved the Lineal title. Frazier won. But Ali came back and instantly it was as if the Lineal title never left him. But he lost it to Frazier anyway. Ali got it back from Foreman, lost it to Spinks, got it back from Spinks and retired with it. After a few unclear years where Holmes might have held it, Ali came back and lost to Holmes, passing it on.

Probably the screwiest it got was post-Lennox Lewis, who retired with the Lineal title after controversially beating Vitali Klitschko. So it seemed that Klitschko should have a chance to inherit the belt, and after he beat Corrie Sanders most people were satisfied that he held it. If Lewis had ever come back though, he would have lost the title. Eventually Klitschko retired for 4 years and by then Wladimir was considered champion by everyone, so the belt started up again with him.

So if there is ever a case where the belt clearly went away with a retired person, it springs up again when there is a unanimous champion. Even if Wlad never held all the belts, everyone with an ounce of sense recognized him as champion.

Then Fury beat Wlad, so Fury had the title. Fury went inactive, and maybe for a short time the Wlad-Joshua winner could have been considered the (interim) Lineal champ, but once Fury came back that is retconned. Fury is the Lineal title holder.

[oogiebe]

lol, you can't "give up" the Lineal belt. It stays with you whether you want it or not.

Even if you retire, it stays with you until it's clear you really mean it. Then fans decide on which fight is for the revived Lineal belt. And even after that fight, if you come back, you magically have the Lineal belt again, as if it never went away. Under best conditions the title is handed off to the new champion, but you have people like Rocky Marciano, Lennox Lewis, so the Lineal belt has to be revived occasionally.

Ali was banned from boxing for 3 years. During that time it was decided that the Frazier - Jimmy Ellis winner deserved the Lineal title. Frazier won. But Ali came back and instantly it was as if the Lineal title never left him. But he lost it to Frazier anyway. Ali got it back from Foreman, lost it to Spinks, got it back from Spinks and retired with it. After a few unclear years where Holmes might have held it, Ali came back and lost to Holmes, passing it on.

Probably the screwiest it got was post-Lennox Lewis, who retired with the Lineal title after controversially beating Vitali Klitschko. So it seemed that Klitschko should have a chance to inherit the belt, and after he beat Corrie Sanders most people were satisfied that he held it. If Lewis had ever come back though, he would have lost the title. Eventually Klitschko retired for 4 years and by then Wladimir was considered champion by everyone, so the belt started up again with him.

So if there is ever a case where the belt clearly went away with a retired person, it springs up again when there is a unanimous champion. Even if Wlad never held all the belts, everyone with an ounce of sense recognized him as champion.

Then Fury beat Wlad, so Fury had the title. Fury went inactive, and maybe for a short time the Wlad-Joshua winner could have been considered the (interim) Lineal champ, but once Fury came back that is retconned. Fury is the Lineal title holder.

Hardly anyone cares about lineal these days outside of fury fans.

[jamamb]

yep, the lineal title always means most to the fans of the guy who has it

[jvincent]

Hardly anyone cares about lineal these days outside of fury fans.

Also important to note is that since furys return the "lineal title" hasnt been recorded as being on the line as a matter of historical record. Like fury but come on.

[JohnMcMinn]

I just think the lineal title matters because it's so clear cut, at least at heavyweight. I don't really have a dog in the fight and I don't care that Fury has the title. Personally, I'm hoping Wilder KOs him in the rematch. But I'm still going to argue in Fury's favor because he is currently The Man, the lineal champ.

[greg]

..not really that convincing: seems to have more than enough gaps and inconsistencies...I might as well go ahead and claim I'm a direct descendant of Genghis Khan or that my geneological line goes all the way back to Adam, incidentally I have an Adam's apple to prove it..

seriously though, there are not many fans who can actually follow or care about it ..

[cormack]

totallly uninteresting fight

[JohnMcMinn]

..not really that convincing: seems to have more than enough gaps and inconsistencies...

You really just have:

Gene Tunney retired
Rocky Marciano retired
Lennox Lewis retired

That's not many gaps.

Eh, I'm done arguing about the lineal title for today. Either you care about it or you don't. No use going in circles about it.

[candyslim]

..not really that convincing: seems to have more than enough gaps and inconsistencies...I might as well go ahead and claim I'm a direct descendant of Genghis Khan or that my geneological line goes all the way back to Adam, incidentally I have an Adam's apple to prove it..

seriously though, there are not many fans who can actually follow or care about it ..

Back to Adam, Greg? Me too ! That's uncanny. We are related to each other. Both of us

[ironbeard]

I like Fury, but his fans and their “linear” absolute rubbish have me pulling for the pair of Shwortz.

[Ruthless-RKO]

I like Fury, but his fans and their “linear” absolute rubbish have me pulling for the pair of Shwortz.

And when Schwarz beats him, they will say it was a non title fight because Schwarz wasn’t ranked high enough!

[squiggy]

lol, you can't "give up" the Lineal belt. It stays with you whether you want it or not.
Even if you retire, it stays with you until it's clear you really mean it. .... once Fury came back that is retconned. Fury is the Lineal title holder.

Personally, I just don't accept that part. A champion doesn't defend for a year, I stop thinking of him as the champion. No use just letting it all be on hold for a guy who isn't fighting.

[ironbeard]

A champion (who I clearly acknowledged after he defeated Wlad) dives into a lifestyle of cocaine and booze, fails to honor his contractual obligations (including rematch clause), is a PED cheat, and leaves the profession for well over two years gets to walk back into boxing as the “linearal” champ? That is some funny sh!t. No holes in that “linearal” logic.

There is one true HW champ at this time. TFKoB defeated The Man. He is now The Man to beat.

End of.

[Ilya Muromets]

Look at this booky crap. You have to be a moron to bet with them. Look at the ridiculous spread:

1-40 odds if u bet on Fury but only 14 1/2 to 1 if u bet on Schwarz. I'm reading it right, right?

http://www.vegasinsider.com/boxing/