>>>True, but if you weigh the hometown source versus other sources(several!) that have no clear vested interest in the said fighter and say something completely different, then I tend to lean more towards the numerous unbiased sources. Don't you?<<<
No I don’t. Reason being is that a lot of the papers from the rest of the country did not even have anyone at the fight and are just reprinting the AP, or UP report, which the AP report is exactly what is printed in the LA Times…they did not have anyone at ringside, but even that reports states that LaMotta’s middle finger of his left hand was badly swollen. The UP report, which appeared in the Oakland Tribune and other papers states that LaMotta’s left hand was so swollen that his handlers thought that it was broken, which the fist was to be x-rayed the next day, so the question about LaMotta’s hand is this…there is no question about it…his hand was hurt, but compaired to the LA Times, the New York Times did have a reporter on hand, so you be the judge!
Anyway, the hometown paper of a fight is the main primary source, which in this case there are several Detroit newspapers to chose from, so it is not just one hometown view…does that mean that the hometown paper is always right…not at all, but for a fight like LaMotta-Cerdan, which took place in Detroit, where neither fighter are from Detroit, then Detroit newspapers are by far the best papers one could use, at least in my opinion.
When a primary source is not available, then go with the next best thing, but just don’t place higher value on one paper just because they happen to fit your argument against another which paints a different picture. Personally, I like to use as many “live” sources as possible for a fight and then draw conclusions based on the entirety of all the views and not just praise one, while damning another that does not follow my argument.
The LA Times is alright to use if there is nothing else available, but for this fight the Detroit papers would be the best credential for that particular fight, but I would also put a lot of faith into the Ring magazine report of the fight, which I will post up here sometime tomorrow morning!
On a side note…the early New York Times was one of the worst in the country for reporting boxing, but that was around 1910 and before…they were really against boxing for a number of early years, but after they started covering the sport really well, which started thoroughly around 1912, or 1913 they did a very good job, especially by 1949, but then again the New York Times is not the be-all, end-all source…in fact it is not even the best New York source in my opinion (There are many New York papers to chose from), but it is still a very good source, as is the LA Times, that is when they have a reporter at ringside. The real weight of each newspaper opinion would not be the paper, but instead who was the reporter writing the report!
One thing is certain about the fight…LaMotta put a beating on Cerdan…a serious beating. Could he have repeated it in a rematch, very possibly, but as I said before, I would favor Cerdan in a rematch as I felt he was the better overall boxer, but how many times have we seen a tough-as-nails fighter beat the better overall boxer?
As far as Jake breaking his hand and still throwing it with regularity…well LaMotta is the kind of fighter that had his hand been cut off, he would still have thrown punches with the nub…a broken hand, or dislocated knuckle certainly was not going to hinder a fighter like LaMotta!
The UP Report in the Oakland Tribune states that LaMotta’s hand was so swollen that his handlers thought that it was broken, which the fist was to be x-rayed the next day.
>>>Do you have access to the Detroit reports?<<<
Not anytime access…I could have the reels ordered thru interlibrary loan, or I could buy microfilm copies of the Detroit papers if I chose. Unless you live close to a huge library like the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, or some large university then more than likely you will have to request for your public library to order the rolls of microfilm for the Detroit papers.
As I mentioned earlier...I post the Ring Magazine coverage of the fight tomorrow morning!
Greatest middleweights of each decade
Re: re
Collins2000 wrote:barry wrote:Nero--If you have ever noticed any of Collins2000 previous threads from the past you would realize what a total tool he really is. He is of the ignorant brand of people who refuses to admit he is wrong, even when he has absolutely no clue about an issue, which happens a lot, or even when correct evidence has been shoved down his throat…he is still dumb about it!
It has been proven and demonstrated that whenever disagreed with all he will do is get upset, insult you, cry and then eventually leave the forum for a couple of months after being made to look like the idiot. Then, many moons later, he will return and it's like he hasn't lost a step in his ignorance...that is until he tries to whine to the owner of the site about this forum member, or that forum member thinking he can have someone banned, which in turn just gets him laughed at because he is the little boy from that story...you know the one who cried wolf one too many times and in the end, like the little boy in the story, he is just laughed at and generally ignored!
Notice how he completely dodged the issue of you asking what kind of research he has done into the LaMotta-Cerdan fight...that’s because he hasn’t done any kind of research…he hasn’t seen the fight, nor has he read any reports of the fight and it's the same way with anything else he tries to yap about! His research consists of looking at a fighters record...and that sums it up...well that and he also uses many of the records that I myself have researched over at the CBZ, and he then tries to take the quotes from certain records and attempts to use them as his own, until he was exposed for doing it, which now you will see he sometimes quotes the CBZ instead of now trying to claim the quotes as his own!
He is not allergic to research; he is just ignorant to the benefits of doing it. Trust me Nero...you are just wasting your time trying to argue with this clown...just ignore him!
Hi bazza, you aren't still sulking about that PM you got from Shep when you tried to get me banned are you?
Do you have anything meaningful to add to my discussion with Nero? Or are you looking to stir up more trouble?
Anyway, I'm sure Nero is quite able to handle my comments and questions without having you whining in the background.
PS Unless your next post actually has boxing content bazza, I won't be wasting my time responding.
Boy, you were right about this guy. He accuses everyone of not having a clue. Funny, as are his hysterical ramblings with anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him. He's beginning to sound like the proverbial broken record.
I think I'll take a cue from you and not waste my time.
Re: re
Well we actually seem to agree on this bout as it happens... I'm still waiting for Neros Myth shattering revelation but there you are... Jake gave Cedan quite a drubbing almost koing him with a left-hook that buckled Cedans knees and basically punched him round the ring till Cedan fell to the canvas with a push-cum-punch as he was trying to grab hold of Jake. Cedan suffered according to the NYS doctor a torn spira spinatus muscle... this is basically the elevator muscle which works when you lift the arm up etc...barry wrote:>>>True, but if you weigh the hometown source versus other sources(several!) that have no clear vested interest in the said fighter and say something completely different, then I tend to lean more towards the numerous unbiased sources. Don't you?<<<
No I don’t. Reason being is that a lot of the papers from the rest of the country did not even have anyone at the fight and are just reprinting the AP, or UP report, which the AP report is exactly what is printed in the LA Times…they did not have anyone at ringside, but even that reports states that LaMotta’s middle finger of his left hand was badly swollen. The UP report, which appeared in the Oakland Tribune and other papers states that LaMotta’s left hand was so swollen that his handlers thought that it was broken, which the fist was to be x-rayed the next day, so the question about LaMotta’s hand is this…there is no question about it…his hand was hurt, but compaired to the LA Times, the New York Times did have a reporter on hand, so you be the judge!
Anyway, the hometown paper of a fight is the main primary source, which in this case there are several Detroit newspapers to chose from, so it is not just one hometown view…does that mean that the hometown paper is always right…not at all, but for a fight like LaMotta-Cerdan, which took place in Detroit, where neither fighter are from Detroit, then Detroit newspapers are by far the best papers one could use, at least in my opinion.
When a primary source is not available, then go with the next best thing, but just don’t place higher value on one paper just because they happen to fit your argument against another which paints a different picture. Personally, I like to use as many “live” sources as possible for a fight and then draw conclusions based on the entirety of all the views and not just praise one, while damning another that does not follow my argument.
The LA Times is alright to use if there is nothing else available, but for this fight the Detroit papers would be the best credential for that particular fight, but I would also put a lot of faith into the Ring magazine report of the fight, which I will post up here sometime tomorrow morning!
On a side note…the early New York Times was one of the worst in the country for reporting boxing, but that was around 1910 and before…they were really against boxing for a number of early years, but after they started covering the sport really well, which started thoroughly around 1912, or 1913 they did a very good job, especially by 1949, but then again the New York Times is not the be-all, end-all source…in fact it is not even the best New York source in my opinion (There are many New York papers to chose from), but it is still a very good source, as is the LA Times, that is when they have a reporter at ringside. The real weight of each newspaper opinion would not be the paper, but instead who was the reporter writing the report!
One thing is certain about the fight…LaMotta put a beating on Cerdan…a serious beating. Could he have repeated it in a rematch, very possibly, but as I said before, I would favor Cerdan in a rematch as I felt he was the better overall boxer, but how many times have we seen a tough-as-nails fighter beat the better overall boxer?
As far as Jake breaking his hand and still throwing it with regularity…well LaMotta is the kind of fighter that had his hand been cut off, he would still have thrown punches with the nub…a broken hand, or dislocated knuckle certainly was not going to hinder a fighter like LaMotta!
The UP Report in the Oakland Tribune states that LaMotta’s hand was so swollen that his handlers thought that it was broken, which the fist was to be x-rayed the next day.
>>>Do you have access to the Detroit reports?<<<
Not anytime access…I could have the reels ordered thru interlibrary loan, or I could buy microfilm copies of the Detroit papers if I chose. Unless you live close to a huge library like the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, or some large university then more than likely you will have to request for your public library to order the rolls of microfilm for the Detroit papers.
As I mentioned earlier...I post the Ring Magazine coverage of the fight tomorrow morning!
According to the NYT report of the fight Jake used his left-hand for jabbing and cautious swings but couldnt throw any hooks because of his injury....
The Times reporter was James P Dawson... who was a damn good writer imo.... I'd put this up here if I could but don't know how....
I also have the Boxing News report on this fight and will try and track it down....
re
Honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone might put up regarding the bout, Nero is too thick-headed to accept the actual truth about the issue because he is too childish to admit he is wrong about it. Anyone that does not agree with Nero is obviously bias in his eyes, yet the one source that he is living and dying by, which is a piss-poor source to begin with, cannot be bias...at least in his eyes.
It's this kind of person that I have a real problem with...they try to change the actual facts of history in the attempt to fit they're bogus argument, I usually say debate, but Nero has not presented anything that would resemble a debate. I'm just glad that no one really pays any kind of attention to these kinds of clowns, or the correcting of inaccurate boxing data would be set back many years, but thankfully most people have more sense to realize what genuine crap is and what it isn’t!
It's this kind of person that I have a real problem with...they try to change the actual facts of history in the attempt to fit they're bogus argument, I usually say debate, but Nero has not presented anything that would resemble a debate. I'm just glad that no one really pays any kind of attention to these kinds of clowns, or the correcting of inaccurate boxing data would be set back many years, but thankfully most people have more sense to realize what genuine crap is and what it isn’t!
Re: re
Thats what got under my skin with this discussion.... Neros trying to change history yet accusing others of being biased and making things up. You know the guy has a problem when he believes he knows more about the fight than those who were actually there. Theres always been this little band of people who have an out and out hatred for Lamotta... I remember a particularly bile filled article about him in The Ring round about the time that Raging Bull was released... so with all this in mind its really quite amusing that anyone can believe that the forces of boxing conspired to help Lamotta win the title or anything like that... the guy had to humiliate himself to get a shot that was years over due anyway... noone did him many favours as far as I can see...barry wrote:Honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone might put up regarding the bout, Nero is too thick-headed to accept the actual truth about the issue because he is too childish to admit he is wrong about it. Anyone that does not agree with Nero is obviously bias in his eyes, yet the one source that he is living and dying by, which is a piss-poor source to begin with, cannot be bias...at least in his eyes.
It's this kind of person that I have a real problem with...they try to change the actual facts of history in the attempt to fit they're bogus argument, I usually say debate, but Nero has not presented anything that would resemble a debate. I'm just glad that no one really pays any kind of attention to these kinds of clowns, or the correcting of inaccurate boxing data would be set back many years, but thankfully most people have more sense to realize what genuine crap is and what it isn’t!
1960 MID BEST OF ALL TIME
[quote="pundit"]Good stuff! [/quote]
RAY ROBBINSSON
PETER MEULER
SPYDER WEBB
JOE GIEADRELLO
BOBO OLSON
FRANZ SZUZINA
DICK TIGER
HENERY HANK
HONNY BOY BRUCE
VIRGIL AKTINS
[/quote]RAY ROBBINSSON
PETER MEULER
SPYDER WEBB
JOE GIEADRELLO
BOBO OLSON
FRANZ SZUZINA
DICK TIGER
HENERY HANK
HONNY BOY BRUCE
VIRGIL AKTINS
re
>>>Barry tries to ban anyone who disagrees with him, and deletes topics where he makes an ass of himself.<<<
Another of my fans that I had my way with...and yet another that still has not gotten over it, but as I say with any one...prove it...can you...I didn't think so!
>>>Perhaps you should read through this thread before you make an arse of yourself!....<<<
Good point Silkov. Silk, you and I can have arguments and insult one another, but in the end I honestly do respect your opinion and view because you stick with it, but most of all because you don't try to make up lies...people like Collins, Decagon, who both tried a verbal tag-team on me once a few months ago to no avail, just can't get past the fact that they neither have a chance and as is evident, neither can seem to get over it.
As I mentioned in another thread...if I deleted threads, people like Collins and people like you Decagon just simply would not have any posts on this forum, but as we speak, you Decagon are now at 2352 total posts and Collins2000 is at 725, so I smell a lot of bullshit and no facts to back up your statement!
To end, Silkov said it best…” Perhaps you should read through this thread before you make an arse of yourself!”
Another of my fans that I had my way with...and yet another that still has not gotten over it, but as I say with any one...prove it...can you...I didn't think so!
>>>Perhaps you should read through this thread before you make an arse of yourself!....<<<
Good point Silkov. Silk, you and I can have arguments and insult one another, but in the end I honestly do respect your opinion and view because you stick with it, but most of all because you don't try to make up lies...people like Collins, Decagon, who both tried a verbal tag-team on me once a few months ago to no avail, just can't get past the fact that they neither have a chance and as is evident, neither can seem to get over it.
As I mentioned in another thread...if I deleted threads, people like Collins and people like you Decagon just simply would not have any posts on this forum, but as we speak, you Decagon are now at 2352 total posts and Collins2000 is at 725, so I smell a lot of bullshit and no facts to back up your statement!
To end, Silkov said it best…” Perhaps you should read through this thread before you make an arse of yourself!”
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Re: re
barry, barry, barry. Stop wriggling. You said it. we all saw it. Your rep went out the window that day. But keep on deleting posts. No one can stop you. Least of all that junior moderator you own.barry wrote:I never said it either! Funny, it seems that you are the only person who tries to make the claim. But as I stated earlier...just a lot more bullshit with no fact to substantiate your claim! Sad....really, really sad!!!!
re
>>>barry, barry, barry. Stop wriggling. You said it. we all saw it. Your rep went out the window that day. But keep on deleting posts. No one can stop you. Least of all that junior moderator you own. <<<<
Really...as I always say...prove it!
Though it is good to see two lovers unite. I see you and Decagon are going to try the tag-team again...no problem here...we all three know how it's going to turn out...just like the last time...so you'll be left crying on one anothers shoulders about what a bad person I am and about how I am ruining this forum for lying, fake losers like you! Sorry, but we keep it real here!
Really...as I always say...prove it!
Though it is good to see two lovers unite. I see you and Decagon are going to try the tag-team again...no problem here...we all three know how it's going to turn out...just like the last time...so you'll be left crying on one anothers shoulders about what a bad person I am and about how I am ruining this forum for lying, fake losers like you! Sorry, but we keep it real here!
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Re: re
barry, as far as I'm concerned you are a joke. What about those links to the la motta articles you TRIED to post??? Hey, good effort, mate. Boxing historian? Good laugh that was.barry wrote:>>>barry, barry, barry. Stop wriggling. You said it. we all saw it. Your rep went out the window that day. But keep on deleting posts. No one can stop you. Least of all that junior moderator you own. <<<<
Really...as I always say...prove it!
Though it is good to see two lovers unite. I see you and Decagon are going to try the tag-team again...no problem here...we all three know how it's going to turn out...just like the last time...so you'll be left crying on one anothers shoulders about what a bad person I am and about how I am ruining this forum for lying, fake losers like you! Sorry, but we keep it real here!
Anyway, no one else in here has a problem with me so why you are pissing in the wind. Why don't you send anothe whining PM to Shep?
re
Blah...blah...blah! All you two are doing is fondling each others battered ego's! Though I find it ironic that it is only jealous half-wits that I lost credibility with...you know, like you and Collins2000, I could care less what they think...respectd members and people that are grounded in reality know that I simply know what I am talking about as it pertains to boxing, which has got you two in such a hot and bothered state...LOL!
re
Are either of you two going to actually try to bring any facts into your rants, or are you just going to continue to cry the same old tune over and over and over again, or continue to make up bullshit that everyone see's through...really, even morons are original from time to time!
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Re: re
Why don't you give us a real good laugh and ressurect that "Please tell me you love me" thread and follow it with the "I QUIT" thread you posted. I laugh every time I think of them. They were gold, mate.barry wrote:Blah...blah...blah! All you two are doing is fondling each others battered ego's! Though I find it ironic that it is only jealous half-wits that I lost credibility with...you know, like you and Collins2000, I could care less what they think...respectd members and people that are grounded in reality know that I simply know what I am talking about as it pertains to boxing, which has got you two in such a hot and bothered state...LOL!
re
>>>I hold you in fairly high regard as a researcher, but you suck at moderating message boards. As a mod, you're one of the worst I've ever seen.<<<
Well, too bad I don’t feel the same and too bad I could care less what you think...sorry, but there is nothing you can do about it either, except whine! You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but you will have to learn to live it! Decagon, your problem is simple, you just simply cannot mind your own. See, I have completely ignored you for the past couple of months…I have paid no attention to the bogus claims that you try to make about boxing and I have just generally ignored you, so then you have to stick your head in again here and then you start whining and crying when I bite back…like I said…you don’t have to like it, you certainly don’t have to agree with it, but you will have to learn to live with it and it is as simple as that!
>>>Why don't you give us a real good laugh and ressurect that "Please tell me you love me" thread and follow it with the "I QUIT" thread you posted. I laugh every time I think of them. They were gold, mate.<<<
Collins---Instead of yapping, whining, crying and asking me, why don't you post it yourself...then we might actually half the time know what you are yapping about, but like I said in the other thread...unless you can do something other than whine, cry and make up shit, then I'm going to rain on your bitch-parade by locking the thread down..why...because I can! Now go tell it on the mountain and see if you can get any sympathy there because you have failed to get any here from anyone!
Well, too bad I don’t feel the same and too bad I could care less what you think...sorry, but there is nothing you can do about it either, except whine! You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but you will have to learn to live it! Decagon, your problem is simple, you just simply cannot mind your own. See, I have completely ignored you for the past couple of months…I have paid no attention to the bogus claims that you try to make about boxing and I have just generally ignored you, so then you have to stick your head in again here and then you start whining and crying when I bite back…like I said…you don’t have to like it, you certainly don’t have to agree with it, but you will have to learn to live with it and it is as simple as that!
>>>Why don't you give us a real good laugh and ressurect that "Please tell me you love me" thread and follow it with the "I QUIT" thread you posted. I laugh every time I think of them. They were gold, mate.<<<
Collins---Instead of yapping, whining, crying and asking me, why don't you post it yourself...then we might actually half the time know what you are yapping about, but like I said in the other thread...unless you can do something other than whine, cry and make up shit, then I'm going to rain on your bitch-parade by locking the thread down..why...because I can! Now go tell it on the mountain and see if you can get any sympathy there because you have failed to get any here from anyone!
re
LOL...Holding on like it's a life support aren't you! Sorry, but it's become more than a bore...now it's just a waste of space! As I mentioned in the other thread...I apologize to the other members that this thread has regressed into the jealous bitch party that it has! The thread is locked!
P.S. Collins2000, or Decagon---If either of you try to take this little charade to any other threads and ruin them I'm just going to delete it right away. Get over it and move on!
P.S. Collins2000, or Decagon---If either of you try to take this little charade to any other threads and ruin them I'm just going to delete it right away. Get over it and move on!