BoxRec Forum HW TOP 15 Ranking - Question

[oogiebe]

I think you should have Mike Hunter as number 16 as you voted him in, he is now out because of Ruiz. If you have others that were in then out you should just expand the ratings. But fundamentally to make the top 15 you should beat somebody in it...FULL STOP .

It should be that way, but with the infrequency of such fights, I think voting on wins (resume) becomes a necessity.

[candyslim]

I think you should have Mike Hunter as number 16 as you voted him in, he is now out because of Ruiz. If you have others that were in then out you should just expand the ratings. But fundamentally to make the top 15 you should beat somebody in it...FULL STOP .

Yeah but if you expand to top 20 then you can make the same point about the guy displaced from 20th by somebody being promoted above him.

There are some good match ups there ...

Whyte v Rivas, Gorman v Dubois, Joyce v Jennings, and Ajagba v Demirezen we have talked about to varying degrees but I'm quite excited at the prospect of Lukasz Rozanski taking on Izu Ugonoh. I'd be particularly interested in your opinion about it Dagi.

Joey Dawejko can be relied on to give Gassiev a real baptism of fire, and Chisora v Szpilka is not without a certain appeal either.

Anyone who thinks the heavies are not very interesting when you look outside the top 4 or the top 10, whichever, just isn't paying attention. There are loads of decent fights happening and potentially a thousand or more intriguing possibilities.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I think you should have Mike Hunter as number 16 as you voted him in, he is now out because of Ruiz. If you have others that were in then out you should just expand the ratings. But fundamentally to make the top 15 you should beat somebody in it...FULL STOP .

- Bunch of sniffy nonsense.

I tired of pointing out the flaws in JCS' mean poll where he tries to leverage it by eliminating the two bell curve outlier ends as I recall it.

Dag's even worse as he's got an even more complicated, incomprehensible points system based in part on magic numbers he made up.

There is no holy grail of a ranking system, but currently boxrec the only of the Ring and espn big three to have Fat Andy #1 instead of being behind the other top guys who turned down career purses to fight AJ, the perfect storm.

AJ should be #2 as his record and willingness to face the best unmatched save for a stumble. And now he's rematching The Man who beat The Man as the other clowns that turned down AJ can go pork themselves to their teensy heart's content .

[oogiebe]

- Bunch of sniffy nonsense.

I tired of pointing out the flaws in JCS' mean poll where he tries to leverage it by eliminating the two bell curve outlier ends as I recall it.

Dag's even worse as he's got an even more complicated, incomprehensible points system based in part on magic numbers he made up.

There is no holy grail of a ranking system, but currently boxrec the only of the Ring and espn big three to have Fat Andy #1 instead of being behind the other top guys who turned down career purses to fight AJ, the perfect storm.

AJ should be #2 as his record and willingness to face the best unmatched save for a stumble. And now he's rematching The Man who beat The Man as the other clowns that turned down AJ can go pork themselves to their teensy heart's content .

I admit that Dag's system is more subjective, but we like it.

[candyslim]

Can it be subjective if it's the product of a democratic vote? I mean subjective suggests an individual point of view doesn't it? Sorry I can be a bit of a pedant.

No rating system ever conceived is even close to perfect, but I reckon ours compares favourably to most and kicks into touch, any generated by any of the governing bodies since the start of this century ... and probably the last too.

[dagilechia]

Yeah but if you expand to top 20 then you can make the same point about the guy displaced from 20th by somebody being promoted above him.

There are some good match ups there ...

Whyte v Rivas, Gorman v Dubois, Joyce v Jennings, and Ajagba v Demirezen we have talked about to varying degrees but I'm quite excited at the prospect of Lukasz Rozanski taking on Izu Ugonoh. I'd be particularly interested in your opinion about it Dagi.

Joey Dawejko can be relied on to give Gassiev a real baptism of fire, and Chisora v Szpilka is not without a certain appeal either.

Anyone who thinks the heavies are not very interesting when you look outside the top 4 or the top 10, whichever, just isn't paying attention. There are loads of decent fights happening and potentially a thousand or more intriguing possibilities.

Różański is not a ''prospect'' at all - he started his pro career 29, he is 33 now, he has no amateur background, he was a friend and sparringpartner of Przemysław Saleta. He is a short brawler with no techinque skills. but what he has is undoubtedly punching power. we don't know nothing about his chin or stamina so far (he went 4 rounds only once, the rest ended up in 1 or 2). His most notable wins are over totally shot Albert Sosnowski (KO 1), and Michael Sprott (KO 2, in comparison, Sprott lasted 5 rounds vs Demirezen 6 months before).

As i said, he is not very skillful so don't expect to see him jabbing a lot, he relies only on pressure and volume punching (most of his punches are hooks). We know that Izu also have stamina problem and seems that his chin is not too durable, so Różański will be a threat in the first 3-4 rounds, no doubt. I think that Izu should outjab him in the first 4-5 rounds and then try to knock him out, we don't know about Łukasz's stamina too much but he doesn't look like a guy who should look fresh in the later rounds.

Izu is a favourite but this fight will be held in Różański's hometown Rzeszów, on the football stadium of a team that he is a fan of, and it's Różański's promoter event. We know how boxing is, it is an important factor as well.

My prediction is: Ugonoh by KO in 4-5 after a brawl or Ugonoh by KO in 6-8 after outjabbing and tiring Różański. By Różański by early KO is a possibility, no dount. Izu's last fight was against Breazeale and it was 28 months ago (i don't count the joke fight vs Kassi) + it will be his first fight with new trainer.

This is going to be a good event. One of the best LHW prospects in the world 12(11)-0 Paweł Stępień will face decent Polish/Euro level 16(7)-1(0)-1 Marek Matyja. Stępień is a tall fighter, with very good punching power, decent techincal skills, in defence he relies too much on his reflex though, he is good, my favourite Polish prospect, but he is not RJJ. He gets hit too easy, in his last fight he was knocked down by Dmitry Sukhotskiy. I hope he will not fight like that the next time. It was his fault, sometimes seems like he's not taking the opponents seriously. He is a very good body/liver puncher - in 2017/2018 he scored an impressive streak of 5 bodypunch KO's in a row, in total of 16 rounds + the opposition was not that bad at this stage of career (undefeated, euro-level, skilled Cuban Daryon Lester, durable journeyman Yevgeni Makhteienko, among others).

Fantastic, 23 years old, Ukraine-born, Poland-based MW/SMW 12(8)-0 prospect Fiodor Czerkaszyn will finally step up to face 20(12)-2(0)-1 Australian Wes Capper . Fiodor Łapin, who is a trainer of CW champions Krzysztof Głowacki and Krzysztof Włodarczyk, EBU champion Kamil Szeremeta, among others, said that Czerkaszyn is the biggest talent he's ever worked with. As a young fighter he had +400 fights in different fighting formulas. Strong, skilled, good jab, he is, like Stępień, good body/liver puncher as well - some call him ''Mr Liver''. He recently sparred with Callum Smith. At this point, it is hard to find flaws in his boxing, Capper will be his first step up though.

also: MW EBU champion Kamil Szeremeta (his opponent still TBA), decent 7(5)-0 SMW prospect Mateusz Tryc against a tough journeyman Ivan Murashkin on the card.

It maybe doesn't sounds too interesting for non-Polish fans, but the match-ups seem to be entertaining, and we will see some prospect that have the world title potential so it's worth of watch.

Some of Różański's KO's (he brutally knocked Sosnowski out but i can't find it on youtube, i have found on the other site though):

https://www.polsatsport.pl/film/rozansk ... e_6489403/









Those prospects will fight on this card:







Promo of this event:

[oogiebe]

Can it be subjective if it's the product of a democratic vote? I mean subjective suggests an individual point of view doesn't it? Sorry I can be a bit of a pedant.

No rating system ever conceived is even close to perfect, but I reckon ours compares favourably to most and kicks into touch, any generated by any of the governing bodies since the start of this century ... and probably the last too.

It's built on individual votes. That makes it subjective in its core. It's weighted which makes it interesting. Bottom line is that I like it as a participant. It's hardly objective like BoxRec is, which brings other issues in rankings.

[candyslim]

Ok I'll not argue because I don't know. It's based on opinions I grant you, but even removing the human element doesn't makethe ratings superior (save for the absence of bias) if the formula isn't up to scratch.

That comment you pulled me up on where I suggested you could make a case for AJ remaining at number one. What prompted that remark was the thought that he was so far ahead of Wilder and Fury in BoxRec rating points, that I was wondering whether one solitary loss was going to affect the numbers sufficiently that anyone would overhaul his total which was near enough double his nearest rival.

I've never troubled to learn how the formula works, far too complex for my brain-cells even when they're both working together.

[oogiebe]

Ok I'll not argue because I don't know. It's based on opinions I grant you, but even removing the human element doesn't makethe ratings superior (save for the absence of bias) if the formula isn't up to scratch.

That comment you pulled me up on where I suggested you could make a case for AJ remaining at number one. What prompted that remark was the thought that he was so far ahead of Wilder and Fury in BoxRec rating points, that I was wondering whether one solitary loss was going to affect the numbers sufficiently that anyone would overhaul his total which was near enough double his nearest rival.

I've never troubled to learn how the formula works, far too complex for my brain-cells even when they're both working together.

As I posted, BoxRec has it's own issues with ratings. It's tough to take the human element out of a human enterprise. Still the best though.

[candyslim]

You take my point though re AJ?

I can't argue about BoxRec's being the best ... I'll leave that to Lennox

[oogiebe]

You take my point though re AJ?

I can't argue about BoxRec's being the best ... I'll leave that to Lennox

Yeah, I was wondering how his almost 1,200 points would be affected. What's interesting is that if I'm not mistaken, a win over Ruiz in the rematch won't come add close to that total number earned points. So BoxRec score it as the best was beaten by someone who now is the best. Formulation at its best!

[KiwiRider]

Daggie me old mate, what you are doing currently is plenty for one bloke and we all appreciate it.

If someone suggests doing further voting on lower ranked guys, ask them to maintain it and see what happens- if anything

What you are undertaking is enough. I would hate for you to get overwhelmed and drop it in the too hard or too much time basket because we don't want that.
If Conan wants it, he can do it and all the best to him

[Lackeos]

I'd consider voting on the Joyce, Ajagba, Dubois, and Gassiev fights, since any of them could plausibly be regarded as top 15 with a win. But you could also probably narrow that down to just the Joyce and Gassiev fights if you didn't want to get overwhelmed.

I think you should have Mike Hunter as number 16 as you voted him in, he is now out because of Ruiz. If you have others that were in then out you should just expand the ratings. But fundamentally to make the top 15 you should beat somebody in it...FULL STOP .

That's wrong. A recent top 15 featured Michael Hunter (who never beat anyone in the top 15), Dominic Breazeale (who never beat anyone in the top 15), Filip Hrgovic (who never beat anyone in the top 15), and Adam Kownacki (who never beat anyone in the top 15). And you're saying if the #16 fighter beat the #17 fighter, that wouldn't be good enough to move him ahead of someone like Breazeale, who has never beat anyone in the top 40.

By your figuring, the top 15 would likely be occupied partially by fighters with really stale wins against top 15 opponents. A top 15 that only features fighters with a top 15 victory might look like...
Andy Ruiz
Deontay Wilder
Anthony Joshua
Tyson Fury
Alexander Povetkin
Dillian Whyte
Luis Ortiz
(Jarrell Miller notably very absent)
Kubrat Pulev
Joseph Parker
Oscar Rivas (he isn't in here because he beat a legit top 15 opponent. He's here because he beat an opponent who could've been in the top 15 under this ridiculous system)
Dereck Chisora
Agit Kabayel
Bryant Jennings
Carlos Takam
Tomasz Adamek

[Lennox]

The day somebody who understands boxing rankings tells me Boxrec Ratings are better than PBO I will pack it in. Yes sometimes Boxrec will be better with a rating or two over PBO but the system is very flawed, it does not take into account compliance which was a huge part of the John McLain's 99 Ali Act.

I am not going to tell Boxrec where the flaws are but they have changed their method 40+ times.

www.premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

The Andy Ruiz situation at 1 is awkward. I can see both sides, but he did beat the number 1 and that number 1 was so far ahead of the previous number 2/3 that AJ dropped to 2.

It does happen in PBO that a number 1 gets beat and drops to 3 or further, that is because the points calculations in he background were very close pre-fight.

[ewenhay]

I think the relevant fights involving 2 fighters outwith the top 15 will be fairly infrequent.

If Joyce impressively stopped Jennings would that constitute a vote situation as some people may feel that gave Joyce a case to break into the top 15?

Dubois v Gorman is probably too early to influence top 15 but others may feel differently

[jamamb]

rozanski looks closer to 50 then 30

[dagilechia]

rozanski looks closer to 50 then 30

Izu still has top 15 potential though.

[dagilechia]

the question doesn't matter anymore because i am leaving the forum - if someone wants to continue this project please do that, it would be nice.

[ewenhay]

Why have you decided in the last hour to leave the forum if you don't mind me asking?

[dagilechia]

Why have you decided in the last hour to leave the forum if you don't mind me asking?

due to censorship on this forum and a bias towards certain views and prejudice towards others

[ewenhay]

due to censorship on this forum and a bias towards certain views

There's bias towards people's views here all the time, we're all guilty of it to an extent. Just look at the fall out from the Joshua v Ruiz fight as an example.

[ironbeard]

Can it be subjective if it's the product of a democratic vote? I mean subjective suggests an individual point of view doesn't it? Sorry I can be a bit of a pedant.

No rating system ever conceived is even close to perfect, but I reckon ours compares favourably to most and kicks into touch, any generated by any of the governing bodies since the start of this century ... and probably the last too.

Pure democracy ain’t what it is cracked up to be by the Populists.

[ironbeard]

the question doesn't matter anymore because i am leaving the forum - if someone wants to continue this project please do that, it would be nice.

Good omnipotent figment of your imagination, dagi!! You started the fvcking fire (asked the question), now you are going to walk away and let it burn?

Why don’t you just take my advice and do whatever the fvck you want to do with your rating system? You are the one putting forth the effort.

If someone does not like your methods, they can start their own system, or GFThemselves.

Are you really that thin skinned?

[Lennox]

The day somebody who understands boxing rankings tells me Boxrec Ratings are better than PBO I will pack it in. Yes sometimes Boxrec will be better with a rating or two over PBO but the system is very flawed, it does not take into account compliance which was a huge part of the John McLain's 99 Ali Act.

I am not going to tell Boxrec where the flaws are but they have changed their method 40+ times.

www.premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

The Andy Ruiz situation at 1 is awkward. I can see both sides, but he did beat the number 1 and that number 1 was so far ahead of the previous number 2/3 that AJ dropped to 2.

It does happen in PBO that a number 1 gets beat and drops to 3 or further, that is because the points calculations in he background were very close pre-fight.

Stick with it Dag

[oogiebe]

due to censorship on this forum and a bias towards certain views and prejudice towards others

Dude - you are well respected on the boxing threads. Just stay off OT. I should as well as the heat can get pretty hot over there as you're dealing with social and political issues that many posters love to attack opposing views and unpopular stances. No need to leave because of that. We're all here for BOXING. That's the important topic here.