BOWE AT HIS BEST..............

[Cojimar 1946]

He avoided a rematch with Ross Purritty, he avoided a rematch with Corrie Sanders, he avoided a rematch with Davaryll Williamson, and he only rematched Lamon Brewster and Samuel Peter years later, once they were washed up.

An immediate rematch with Corrie Sanders might have been a bad option because Wladimir had a lot of really bad performances following the Sanders fight and it took a few years to pull himself back together. He didn't really get back on form until 2006.

I don't think Samuel Peter was shot, Brewster may have declined.

[overhand_right]

An immediate rematch with Corrie Sanders might have been a bad option because Wladimir had a lot of really bad performances following the Sanders fight and it took a few years to pull himself back together. He didn't really get back on form until 2006.

I don't think Samuel Peter was shot, Brewster may have declined.

Brewster had been medically retired in the states, being brain damaged and blind in one eye.

Samuel Peter had had the threat knocked out of him by Jameel McCline and Vitali Klit. It was over half a decade since he had knocked Wlad down thrice.

NB. "The 12-round verdict (over Peter) might not have restored Klitschko -- getting knocked down three times won't do that -- but winning the heavyweight title elimination bout earned him mandatory challenger status for the titles held by Chris Byrd and Lamon Brewster." Note that Klitschko opted to rematch Byrd, small, old and waning, and who he had beaten easily years before, rather than Brewster, who was on a run of brutal KOs.

[Ambling Alp II]

Love how obsessed he is with Bowe's fights with Golota, (fights that at least Bowe won) and thinks he has the smoking gun on Bowe.
Then with Klitschko, all those bad losses are just brushed off.

Bowe beat Holyfield twice. No bad losses.
Klitschko's biggest win is over flippin Chris Byrd. Three terrible losses. (not to mention being decked the 3x against Peter)
It's not exactly rocket science here. Bowe was a lot better than Klitschko.

Plus 19 title defenses are supposed to mean something. Here is the mathematical equation to use for title defenses. Multiply the amount of title defenses by zero. That number is how much they are worth.
"Part of ranking is dominance" . That depends on the era.

[Onetimeonly]

He certainly doesn't seem anxious to discuss why he rates Tunney so highly at heavy.

[Cojimar 1946]

He certainly doesn't seem anxious to discuss why he rates Tunney so highly at heavy.

Your right, aside from the wins over Dempsey he doesn't have much depth at the weight. Those wins are huge but maybe not enough to guarantee a top 20 spot.

[oogiebe]

Your right, aside from the wins over Dempsey he doesn't have much depth at the weight. Those wins are huge but maybe not enough to guarantee a top 20 spot.

In all fairness, I don't rate Tunney near the top of any HW ranking, but he beat Harry Greb like four times.

[Ambling Alp II]

Klompton might be all over you for that statement!

Anyway, I actually think you can make an argument for Tunney. He had more fights at heavyweight than people realize; almost as many as Jeffries. He also had some wins over light heavyweights who had some success against heavyweights.

[Onetimeonly]

Klompton might be all over you for that statement!

Anyway, I actually think you can make an argument for Tunney. He had more fights at heavyweight than people realize; almost as many as Jeffries. He also had some wins over light heavyweights who had some success against heavyweights.

Tough to make a case for him if you dismiss his Dempsey fights like the troll wants to erase holyfield from bowe. Not to mention evander was a level above Dempsey to begin with.

[Cojimar 1946]

Love how obsessed he is with Bowe's fights with Golota, (fights that at least Bowe won) and thinks he has the smoking gun on Bowe.
Then with Klitschko, all those bad losses are just brushed off.

Bowe beat Holyfield twice. No bad losses.
Klitschko's biggest win is over flippin Chris Byrd. Three terrible losses. (not to mention being decked the 3x against Peter)
It's not exactly rocket science here. Bowe was a lot better than Klitschko.

Plus 19 title defenses are supposed to mean something. Here is the mathematical equation to use for title defenses. Multiply the amount of title defenses by zero. That number is how much they are worth.
"Part of ranking is dominance" . That depends on the era.

I think the interest in the Golota fights stems partially from the fact that Bowe has so few fights against elite opponents so the few fights he did have get subject to more analysis and also the fact that he came to the rematch in much better shape only to take a horrible beating prior to Golota fouling out.

For some reason Golota was very effective against Bowe minus the low blows and the fights may offer clues as to what sort of fighters cause him problems. What was Golota doing that gave Bowe issues?

[Ambling Alp II]

You keep saying that Bowe had so few fights against elite opponents.. Bowe had more fights against elite heavyweights than Tunney. You have Tunney in your top 20 (and somehow Klitschko) and you don't Bowe. That is ridiculous.

Minus the low blows (which was a huge part of the fights) Golota fought well and landed some good shots with both hands. Golota had some ability. He was a wildly inconsistent head case. You never knew what he was going to do. Sometimes he fought well and sometimes not all; sometimes a little of both in the same fight.
But Guess what? Bowe hung in there and won. An ugly win is much better than an ugly loss.

[Controversial]

Why did Bowe retire so early the first time around, he was only 29.

[Onetimeonly]

Why did Bowe retire so early the first time around, he was only 29.

He was shot. 5 brutal fights can do that at any age.

[Controversial]

He was shot. 5 brutal fights can do that at any age.

I guess, they were pretty brutal fights. Its a shame he never fought Lewis, maybe he knew he wasn't up to beating him.

[Onetimeonly]

I guess, they were pretty brutal fights. Its a shame he never fought Lewis, maybe he knew he wasn't up to beating him.

Definitely a shame, I don't think that's why. 10 million for dokes and Ferguson was huge money for mismatches then, the evander rematch was more money and then McCall.

[Cojimar 1946]

You keep saying that Bowe had so few fights against elite opponents.. Bowe had more fights against elite heavyweights than Tunney. You have Tunney in your top 20 (and somehow Klitschko) and you don't Bowe. That is ridiculous.

Minus the low blows (which was a huge part of the fights) Golota fought well and landed some good shots with both hands. Golota had some ability. He was a wildly inconsistent head case. You never knew what he was going to do. Sometimes he fought well and sometimes not all; sometimes a little of both in the same fight.
But Guess what? Bowe hung in there and won. An ugly win is much better than an ugly loss.

Ranking Gene Tunney outside the top 20 is reasonable. However, in his era there were light heavyweights like Harry Greb and Tommy Gibbons that showed they were capable of beating top heavyweights so it seems reasonable to count them in his heavyweight resume. Harry Greb beat top heavies like Jack Renault and Billy Miske. At his best he was probably at worst the 3rd best heavyweight in the world. Billy Conn was a light heavyweight but it seems reasonable to give Joe Louis credit for the win because Conn had proven himself at heavyweight against guys like Bob Pastor.

I would say the following guys have a case for ranking 19-30. Was unable to narrow it down to 12
Gene Tunney
Steve Hamas
Max Baer
Jersey Joe Walcott
Archie Moore
Floyd Patterson
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
Tim Witherspoon
Riddick Bowe
Oliver McCall
Chris Byrd
Ike Ibeabuchi
Vitali Klitschko
Deontay Wilder

I would definitely put Bowe on the list somewhere but some of the guys are arguable. How would you rate them?

[Onetimeonly]

Hamas, vitali, Ike and wilder definitely don't belong in that company.

[Cojimar 1946]

Hamas, vitali, Ike and wilder definitely don't belong in that company.

Where would you put Ike? He has a thin resume but the Byrd and Tua wins are fairly impressive especially the devastating kayo over Byrd.

[Ambling Alp II]

That simply isn't enough. Ibeabuchi is a "what if case". You could argue Hamas is underrated, but he is nowhere near top 30. Either is Vital, Witherspoon, Byrd and McCall. Hard to argue for Wilder since he is so untested. Moore is ball park, but that is pushing it. At his best Young was, but overall I can't quite put him in.

I would hope everyone would have these guys in their top 15:
Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis, Marciano, Dempsey, Jeffries, Liston, and Tyson. That's 13 guys.

Baer, Walcott, Norton, Tunney, Bowe, and Patterson are no-brainers for top 30. That gives you 19.
Then add great black fighters who never got a shot (Langford, Wills, Jeannette, And McVey) and you have 23.
Then add Charles, Schmeling, Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitzsimmons and you have 28.

So there is really only two spots left. I suppose you argue for John L. Sullivan, who is hard to rate. Maybe Peter Jackson. Moore and Young are possibilities.