chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 21:18
Excellent posts guys. This is what I want to see in a boxing history forum not the endless randomly picked mythical matches that pollute the forum.
I’ve always wanted to see more of Toluco and Pajarito. German Ohm too. That era of Tepito bantamweights is fantastic. Outside of the Harada knockout, Medel’s best accomplishment is probably the Toluco wins. Any insight into what happened in those fights?
I've never seen those fights but they had to be action packed. Fighting at the Arena Coliseo,Mexico's equivalent of Madison Square Garden,I'm sure everybody got their money's worth. I saw Olivares' last fight(a four rounder there. He was Ko'd).BTW:Zarate was another Tepito bantam that came along later. I have a sister in law who lived in Tepito. Whenever I was in Mexico City I'd go to the fights at the Arena Coliseo.My wife's sister passed away two years ago.My wife and I would go there to visit every other year. You'd hear gunshots going off in the middle of the night and then in the morning the meat wagon would come by and pick up the dead bodies.I'd always be looking over my shoulder when I walked the streets.My wife and her sister were never bothered by anything.
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 10:21
I remember the first time I went to Mexico City, I was told to stay away from that area. That plus a certain neighborhood called 'doctores'.
My sister in law lived up the street from that picture. As bad as that looks that's a typical neighborhood in a big metropolis like Mexico City. "Doctores" is near the Arena Coliseo. It is also run down and a place to stay away from. Plaza Garibaldi is near there. It is a place a place were musicians play for money.Once popular with tourists,it's not frequented much because of the danger.
Tijuana is now the murder capital of the world. More than 2500 murders last year. The Colonia Zona Norte abuts the U.S. border. The fence on the U.S. side is the only barrier that separates that area from San Ysidro.A road is channels along the Mexican side..The above picture is a copy of what Colonia Zona Norte looks like. Just in that colonia(which I'd say is ten blocks long)there were 400 murders last year. They had to close Parque Juarez where Gaspar Ortega's old gym used to be because of the crime. Erik Morales' gym is a few blocks away bur still operates. There's a graveyard there.At night it's like a dark shadow..The criminals have broken the street lights so they can carry on unseen.. Boarded up houses,abandoned buildings,garbage in the streets,packs of wild dogs,heroin addicts. Anyone for a wall?
The gym in Parque Juarez named after Gaspar Ortega on the last day before it closed. Notice that no one is there.
I've been pieceing together my all-time greats list from Britain and watching a lot and reading a lot on the greats these last few weeks so felt compelled to write a piece. Very challenging list to put in order. Driscoll feels too low at 5, as does Lewis at 7. Really couldn't separate 1 & 2 or 9 & 10.
Boxing in Great Britain goes back to the bare knuckle era so it’s no mystery that a sport with that much history has always held influence that has appealed to multiple generations of sports enthusiasts. The modern day boxing rules as we know it was written by Welshman John Graham Chambers and became known as Queensberry rules in 1886. British boxers maintained their success into the gloved era and continued to churn out high quality world champions over the first quarter century and then slowly started to see fewer champions signaling the end of a golden age of British boxing. By the end of the Second World War the champions become more few and far between through the 1960’s and 1970’s, however in the 1990’s some big domestic rivalries like Nigel Benn vs. Chris Eubank captivated the public and Lennox Lewis became the first British heavyweight champion in almost 100 years. The sport kept gaining further popularity with charismatic characters like Naseem Hamed proving big box office and Britain’s first Ring ‘Fighter of the year” was handed out to Ricky Hatton in 2005. By 2015 Britain had more world champions than any nation, the lineal heavyweight champion in Tyson Fury and Carl Frampton became the third British boxer to win “Fighter of the year in 2016. It’s safe to say with the money generated in the British game and the high volume of world champions produced we are witnessing something of a second golden age.
Here I attempt to rank the greatest of all the British boxers dating back throughout the history of the sport. I don’t rate based on how I think fighters would do against others from different generations as that is far too speculative. My rating of fighters comes from breaking down the following criteria: quality of opponents, level of skill/talent, level of accomplishments, longevity, performances against larger opponents, ring generalship, how good they were relative to their era and dominance. It’s not an exact science and people value different criteria in a different way or use an entirely different criteria altogether.
One thing that is worth noting and is perhaps a reason people tend to like to break the rankings down into a pre-war and post-war ranking is that in generations far back in America they used to have “newspaper” decisions. Some folks mistakenly dismiss these results which they shouldn’t. The simple reason fights went to newspaper decisions was in an attempt to keep the sport clean and keep gambling out of it. It is inconvenient that fighters could win the newspaper decision but not lift a title because the fight went to a newspaper poll. The results of the fights absolutely should be used to measure a fighter’s qualities and merits. I have included these results in the career totals for the fighters that they apply to.
Anyway, without further ado here is my list of the 10 greatest boxers to ever emerge from Great Britain.
10. Benny Lynch (SCOTLAND)
Born: April 2nd, 1913 in Glasgow, Scotland
Died: August 6th, 1946 in Glasgow, Scotland
Years fought: 1931-1938
Record: 88-14-17 with 34 knockouts
World titles held: World flyweight 1935-1938
Hall of fame induction: 1998
Notable victories: KO13 Peter Kane, KO2 Jackie Brown, W15 Small Montana, KO12 Jackie Jurich, W12 Valentin Angelmann, W12 Maurice Huguenin
The story of Scotland’s first world champion is one filled with enormous triumph and despairing tragedy. Born to Irish immigrants in the Gorbals neighborhood of Glasgow, Lynch fought his way up the flyweight rankings with an exciting energetic style of boxing. He was becoming wildly popular in Glasgow as he defeated a number of leading British contenders and two elite French contenders in Valentin Angelmann and Maurice Huguenin. In March of 1935, he held current flyweight champion Jackie Brown to a draw and then made history six months later when he travelled to Manchester to destroy Brown in two rounds. Brown, a veteran of over 100 fights had reigned supreme for three years but had no answer for the ferocity of the Scotsman’s attack. Little did people know it at the time but the absolute peak of Lynch’s career had been reached and his downfall was already in motion. His affable nature and popularity locally meant Lynch was often seen drinking and staying out late. He was able to score two of his biggest wins during these years when he won a decision over Small Montana and scored a thrilling knockout over the excellent Peter Kane but after missing weight for a 1938 title defense against American Jackie Jurich, he was stripped of his title before knocking Jurich out. Prior to that bout he had shown signs of slippage as he struggled to a draw in a re-match with Kane and was outpointed by Jimmy Warnock in an above the weight non-title bout. He lost two bouts consecutively in 1938 and also lost his license and was finished at the age of 25. His last bout was a knockout loss to Aurel Toma and in retirement his problems worsened as he was arrested for public intoxication and assault. He tried multiple times to kick his addiction but sadly died aged 33 of malnutrition induced respiratory failure.
Historical pound for pound rankings elsewhere: Bert Sugar #93
9. Ken Buchanan (SCOTLAND)
Born: June 28th, 1945 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Years fought: 1965-1982
Record: 61-8 with 27 knockouts
World titles held: WBA lightweight 1970-1972, WBC lightweight 1971
Hall of fame induction: 2000
Notable victories: W12, W12 Ismael Laguna, KO6 Carlos Ortiz, W15 Jim Watt, W15 Ruben Navarro, W10 Donato Paduano, KO8 Carlos Hernandez
Often cited as the classiest post-war British boxer, this Edinburgh native was perhaps the greatest British road warrior having fought in 12 different countries throughout his hall of fame career. The Scotsman fought mostly around the London area on his way up before winning the British lightweight title in 1968 with an 11th round knockout of the talented Maurice Cullen. Buchanan started 1970 with his first setback as he travelled to Madrid in attempt to take the European crown against Miguel Velasquez but was on the wrong end of a controversial decision against the Spaniard. Later that year came his crowning moment when he travelled to Puerto Rico to dethrone the wonderful Panamanian world champion Ismael Laguna in the searing summer heat in San Juan. That victory is often shortlisted as one of the finest ever achieved by a British boxer and was repeated in style the following year when the pair headlined Madison Square Garden. In between those fights came classy performances against ex-world champion Carlos Hernandez and a unification victory over Ruben Navarro in Los Angeles. Timing is often everything in sports and unfortunately for Buchanan he happened to run into a special Panamanian fighter by the name of Roberto Duran in 1972. Buchanan fought gallantly but was stopped after a low blow in the 13th round of a fight in which he appeared headed to defeat. Buchanan never could get a re-match with Duran but scored big victories over Carlos Ortiz, Jim Watt and Frankie Otero before losing a razor thin decision in Japan against local hero Guts Ishimatsu. He fought on sporadically over the next few years going 5-5 in his last 10 fights before calling it a day. Buchanan was never a big puncher, but he had one of the best left hands in the business, endless stamina and a granite chin which served him well as he became without question the greatest British boxer of his generation.
8. Jack ‘Kid’ Berg (ENGLAND)
Born: June 28th, 1909 in London, England
Died: April 22nd, 1981 in London
Years fought: 1924-1945
Record: 157-26-9 with 61 knockouts
World titles held: World junior welterweight 1930-1931
Hall of fame induction: 1994
Notable victories: W10 Tony Canzoneri, W15, W10 Kid Chocolate, KO10, W10 Mushy Callahan, W10 Billy Petrolle, W10 Joe Glick, W10 Tony Herrera
Due to an aggressive non-stop, crowd pleasing style of fighting Berg earned himself the nickname ‘The Whitechapel Windmill’, in reference to the part of East London he originated from. After 59 fights in England, Berg took his talents to America in 1928 where he would become quite a popular attraction. A knockout loss and draw to Billy Petrolle couldn’t hurt his momentum as he was able to outpoint Mushy Callahan and score multiple wins over the likes of Spug Myers and Bruce Flowers before making a huge splash when he scored a dominant victory over the great Tony Canzoneri in 1930 in what was described as one of the worst beatings the American fighter ever received. That victory was followed up with another win over Callahan, a split decision over the wildly popular Cuban legend Kid Chocolate and a re-match victory over previous conqueror Petrolle. The win over Chocolate was a huge victory in the career of Berg, as Chocolate was 56-0 at the time and considered a supreme stylist. Berg beat him with his rough style of fighting. The Callahan victory earned Berg the junior welterweight crown, a title he defended six times before being knocked out by Canzoneri in a re-match in 1931. He lost the rubber match by unanimous decision later that year and never reigned as world champion again but still fought on with sporadic successes here and there for 14 years winning the British title, repeating his victory over Chocolate and winning over 60 more fights across the world. Berg was not a smooth operator, but he was a rough and rugged customer who always came to fight and was tough as nails. He provided one of the deepest generations of lightweights with some really stiff competition and made his mark on both sides of the pond. In retirement he remained busy, owning a restaurant, working as a stuntman and going into the Royal Air Force. He died in 1991 at the age of 81.
Historical pound for pound rankings elsewhere: Boxing.com #95
Notable victories: W12 Evander Holyfield, KO6 Vitali Klitschko, KO8 Mike Tyson, KO2 Donavan Ruddock, W10 Ray Mercer, KO2 Michael Grant
Without question the greatest heavyweight that ever came from the British Isles in addition to being the last undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, Lewis spent the majority of his career being underappreciated. He won the Olympic gold medal representing Canada in 1988 and was awarded the WBC title when Riddick Bowe refused to fight him. Lewis had earned the number one ranking with a 2nd round blitzing of Donovan ‘Razor’ Ruddock in 1992 and successfully defended the title against Frank Bruno and Tony Tucker before being halted in two rounds by Oliver McCall. He came back re-energized with the legendary Emmanuel Steward as head trainer and earned another title shot with victories over Tommy Morrison and Ray Mercer. He regained the WBC title with a 5th round TKO of Oliver McCall in 1997 before becoming the undisputed champion in 1999 by defeating the legendary Evander Holyfield. Lewis had been robbed in March of that year when a bogus draw meant Holyfield kept his WBA and IBF titles but soundly defeated the American in the November re-match. 2000 was a banner year for Lewis as he turned back the challenges of American hope, Michael Grant and the awesome punching David Tua. In 2001 a shock one-punch knockout defeat against Hasim Rahman hurt the Londoner’s momentum but he quickly regained the title with a brutal knockout of Rahman before thrashing Mike Tyson in what still remains the richest heavyweight prizefight of all-time. Lewis fought for the last time when he scored a stoppage victory over future hall of famer Vitali Klitschko in 2003 and retired having defeated every man he ever fought. Lewis called himself, a ‘pugilist specialist’ which is a pretty accurate moniker given that he was an excellent boxer with great intelligence. At 6 5, he had surprisingly good movements for a man his size in addition to owning one of the great jabs in heavyweight history and murderous punching power, particularly in his right hand.
Historical pound for pound rankings elsewhere: Boxing.com #94
6. Joe Calzaghe (WALES)
Born: March 23rd, 1972 in Hammersmith, England
Years fought: 1993-2008
Record: 46-0 with 32 knockouts
World titles held: WBO super middleweight 1997-2007, IBF super middleweight 2006, WBC & WBA super middleweight 2007-2008
Hall of fame induction: 2014
Notable victories: W12 Mikkel Kessler, W12 Jeff Lacy, W12 Bernard Hopkins, W12 Chris Eubank, KO2 Byron Mitchell, W12 Charles Brewer
The only British world champion to ever retire undefeated, Joe Calzaghe eventually fulfilled the early promise he had shown after some frustrating periods of under achievement. After a promising amateur career, the Welshman struggled to make a splash in the early part of his career despite an impressive string of knockouts. In October or 1997 he captured the vacant WBO super middleweight title with a dominant unanimous decision victory over Chris Eubank. He would reign for an astonishing 10 years, defending that title 21 times. Critics often point to some of the opponents being mediocre and that is true but he did defeat ex-world champions like Robin Reid, Richie Woodhall, Charles Brewer, Byron Mitchell and took Jeff Lacy’s IBF title in dominant fashion as an underdog before topping off his reign relieving the unbeaten Mikkel Kessler of his WBA and WBC titles in a truly unforgettable night in Cardiff. The Lacy performance was the one that sold the American public on his abilities as he handed out one of the most dominant big fight performances of the modern era. Calzaghe perhaps didn’t get the respect he deserved from the American because most of his fights occurred in Britain but he closed out his career in 2008 when he won The Ring and lineal Light Heavyweight championship with a split decision against Bernard Hopkins in Las Vegas before calling it a career with a punishing unanimous decision over the legendary Roy Jones at Madison Square Garden in New York City Calzaghe was hampered by hand injuries throughout his career but was able to dominate due to his high volume of punches, seemingly limitless stamina and ring smarts which enabled him to adapt to whatever style was thrown at him. It was his father Enzo, a former musician with no previous boxing experience who trained him from punching pillows in their living room to the international boxing hall of fame in Canastota, NY.
5. Jim Driscoll (WALES)
Born: December 15th, 1880 in Cardiff, Wales
Died: January 31st, 1925 in Cardiff, Wales
Years fought: 1901-1919
Record: 62-5-7 with 39 knockouts
World titles held: None
Hall of fame induction: 1990
Notable victories: W10 NWS Abe Attell, KO5, W8 George Dixon, KO17, W20 Joe Bowker, W10 NWS Leach Cross, KO15, W10 Harry Mansfield, W12, W6 NWS Matty Baldwin
One of the finest fighters in history to have never won a world title, Driscoll was one of the major proponents in pioneering a more scientific style of boxing. Born in a poor section of Cardiff to Irish immigrants, Driscoll would learn to fight in the boxing booths to help his mother after the death of his father at the age of 7. He gained popularity in his native Wales and scored a pair of wins over aging legend George Dixon before taking on the best of the English featherweights. In defeating Jack Roberts and Johnny Summers he earned the right to fight for the British title when he out boxed Joe Bowker over 15 rounds in 1907 in Govent Garden. The Welshman then went on a fine run which took him to America in 1908 where he gained rave reviews. His reputation built as he scored a trio of wins over Grover Hayes in addition to a pair of wins over the excellent Matty Baldwin and a victory over Leach Cross. By this time Driscoll was considered the favorite in a fight with long reigning featherweight king Abe Attell. In this fight Driscoll gave a wonderful exhibition of boxing in totally dominated the legendary champion and though Driscoll was given the newspaper verdict the title couldn’t change hands because Driscoll didn’t score a knockout such as the rules were at the time. Driscoll was asked to stay and fight for the title but instead set sail to return home the following day because he had promised to perform for a children’s charity citing that, “I never break a promise”. This type of gesture is what endeared the likeable Driscoll even further to his hometown. He started to struggle with illness and the effects of a party lifestyle shortly after and was defeated in America by Philadelphia Pal Moore before losing to fellow Welshman Freddie Welsh via disqualification in a hot tempered affair. He would fight just a handful more times as he suffered from tuberculosis before contracting pneumonia which killed him in 1925 at the age of 44. Driscoll had released a number of instructional boxing books to some critical acclaim given that his artistry and excellent use of the left hand, timing and distance earned him the nickname ‘Peerless’.
Despite being an aggressive come forward type fighter, Lewis had an incredible career which spanned 20 years and 300 fights. Born Gershon Mendeloff on London’s lower east end to Jewish parents, Lewis learned to fight on the streets at a young age before turning professional at the age of 18. Lewis squeezed 143 fights into his first five years with all those fights coming in Europe as he claimed the British and European titles in the featherweight division. He set sail for Australia in 1914 to take on the best lightweights in that country before embarking on America with his sights set on world titles. In 1915 he would meet Jack Britton which whom he formed one of the most historical rivalries of the sport as the two fought no fewer than 21 times between 1915-1921. Weighing in at just 134 lbs, the Englishman dethroned the great Britton in Boston and repeated his victory in his first title defense. The title would change hands again the following year with Britton also successfully defending his title in a re-match. During this period Lewis had defeated such notable opponents as Kid Graves and Willie Ritchie and also drew in a bid to win the crown back from Britton. Lewis went on a fine run of form which included four newspaper decisions over Britton and wins over Johnny Griffiths, Mike O’Dowd and Graves again. He finally won the welterweight title back with a 20-round decision of Britton in New York in 1917 and reigned for two years until Britton stopped him in Canton, Ohio. During this run Lewis had wins and losses against the likes of Soldier Bartfield, Griffiths, O’Dowd and a draw with the great Benny Leonard. He failed in subsequent attempts at Britton’s welterweight title ending their rivalry at 7-8-3 including newspaper decisions, he also failed in an attempt at O’Dowd’s middleweight title and was knocked out in one round in an audacious attempt at Georges Carpienter’s light heavyweight crown in 1922. He would wind down his career fighting mostly in his native England, winning more than losing but never again fighting for a world title before retiring in 1929. In the early part of his career he had more of a British style of boxing, moving and using defensive tactics before campaigning in America where he developed his aggressive take no prisoners swarming style. In retirement he suffered from Parkinson’s disease and died in 1970.
Notable victories: WDQ10 Jim Driscoll, W10 NWS Benny Leonard, W15 Abe Attell, W10 NWS Johnny Dundee, W20, W20 Willie Ritchie, KO8, WDQ11, W10 NWS Ad Wolgast
Unusual for prizefighters in his day, Welsh was born into a relatively affluent family. Born Frederick Thomas, he adopted the name Welsh to hide the fact he was boxing from his family. One of the few vegetarians to ever win a world title, the charismatic Welsh moved to America at the age of 16 where he settled in Philadelphia. In 1907 he came back to Wales at the age of 21 with an American accent and style of boxing but won his hometown public over with a string of impressive performances which included a no-decision draw with countryman Jim Driscoll. He would set sail again for America in search of world title glory at the end of the year again settling in Philadelphia. A draw with the experienced title contender Willie Fitzgerald was followed by a decision loss and draw with all-time great Packey Macfarland would prove an invaluable lesson for the young Welshman. He closed out 1908 with a dominant points victory over the great Abe Attell before returning back home where he again got another draw with Macfarland before winning via disqualification over Driscoll in a foul filled re-match. The following years would prove frustrating for Welsh as he defeated such top fighters as Leach Cross, Philadephia Pal Moore and the great Johnny Dundee but struggled to get a title shot. That shot finally came in 1914 when he faced the excellent Willie Ritchie and defeated him on points. Welsh was a smart businessman and used his title as a way to make money but drew criticism by not putting his title on the line as much as fans would have liked. He lost and won newspaper decisions with the incredible Benny Leonard and took the scalps of such elite fighters as Ad Wolgast, Charlie White and Battling Nelson before going on a bit of a losing run which saw him dethroned by knockout against Leonard in 1917. Welsh squandered a lot of the fortune he amassed in retirement and ended up divorced and burned out from a fast lifestyle and was found dead in his New York City apartment in 1927, aged just 41. Welsh wasn’t known for being a powerful puncher, his style was more of an intelligent boxer who could fight in a number of different styles and possessed excellent defensive skills.
Notable victories: W20 Memphis Pal Moore, W10 Joe Lynch, KO11 Young Zulu Kid, KO12 Joe Conn, KO11 Tancy Lee, KO12, W12 Joe Symonds
Aptly nicknamed ‘The ghost with the hammer in his fists’ and ‘The mighty atom’, Wilde started his career going 104 fights before he first tasted defeat. Often weighing in less than 100 lbs, in the modern era the Welshman would be considered small even for a straweight. Incredibly, he terrorized the flyweight division and consistently beat elite bantamweights. Whilst on his unbeaten run he defeated such standouts as Joe Symonds and Sid Smith before being stopped by Scotsman Tancy Lee in 1915. Another winning streak followed as Wilde defeated Symonds again for British and European recognition as the world champion before beating America’s title claimant, Young Zulu Kid in 1916. During this time he avenged the loss to Lee with an 11th round knockout and then reigned as a champion so dominant, the great Gene Tunney referred to him as, “The greatest fighter I ever saw.” An impressive knockout victory over featherweight Joe Conn in 1918 was followed up with wins against two of the finest bantamweights in history in 1919 when he defeated Joe Lynch and Memphis Pal Moore. In 1921 he was defeated by the great Pete Herman in a fight he was heavily outweighed. This fight represented the end of his prime as he was knocked out of the ring and landed on his head. After two years out of the ring he was talked into defending the flyweight title he still owned but was a shell of his former self as he was again knocked out, this time by Filipino Pancho Villa. In a wild fight, Wilde was hit after the bell and never fully recovered and was then brutally knocked out. He suffered memory loss that plagued him later in life. He lived his last few years in hospice after he was mugged by a gang of young thugs at a train station before passing away in 1969 at the age of 76. Wilde is widely touted for his incredible punching power but he also mastered the use of distance and timing and had fought with an incredible amount of heart and bravery.
Historical pound for pound rankings elsewhere: Bert Sugar #15, Boxing.com #32, International Boxing Research Organization #14
1. Bob Fitzsimmons (ENGLAND)
Born: May 26th, 1863 in Cornwall, England
Died: October 22nd, 1917 in Chicago, USA
Years fought: 1885-1914
Record: 68-12-13 with 57 knockouts
World titles held: World middleweight 1891-1894, World heavyweight 1897-1899, World light heavyweight 1903-1905
Hall of fame induction: 1990
Notable victories: KO13 Jack ‘Nonpareil’ Dempsey, KO14 James J. Corbett, W20 George Gardner, KO2 Tom Sharkey, KO2 Dan Creedon, W6 NWS Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
The first man to ever win three world titles in different divisions and the only man to ever reign as lineal champion of the middleweight and heavyweight divisions, Fitzsimmons was born in Cornwall, England before emigrating to New Zealand in his youth. He turned professional in Australia and after five years he moved to America where he would win the middleweight world title within a year when he stopped Jack ‘Nonpareil’ Dempsey in 1891. He maintained an impressive run which included beating such fighters as Harris Martin, Peter Maher and Jim Hall before his incredible 1897 conquest of James J. Corbett’s heavyweight world title which he won via 14th round knockout. He lost the title by knockout to James J. Jeffries in 1899 and was defeated again in a re-match to Jeffries in 1902. He had long since vacated his middleweight crown but was outsized heavily at heavyweight so he moved down to win the light heavyweight world title the following year with a victory over George Gardner. In his 20th year as a professional prizefighter at the age of 42 he was dethroned by Philadelphia Jack O’Brien after defeating him just five months prior. He would fight on sporadically for 10 more years which included a knockout loss to Jack Johnson before finally calling it a career at the age of 50 after an incredible career which spanned 29 years. Fitzsimmons was credited with many as being one of the most intelligent boxers of his generation which such fighters as Joe Gans marveling at the skills he possessed. He was tall and lanky but not muscle bound yet he was able to find the perfect locations on much larger opponents to dispose of them. Considered nearly unbeatable as a middleweight, the success he had has a heavyweight and as a light heavyweight into his 40’s suggests that Fitzsimmons is one of the absolute finest boxers in the history of the sport.
Historical pound for pound rankings elsewhere: Bert Sugar #26, Boxing.com #6, International Boxing Research Organization #10
-end-
Honorable mentions (rough order): Owen Moran (Eng), Len Harvey (Eng), Randolph Turpin (Eng), Naseem Hamed (Eng), John Conteh (Eng), Freddie Mills (Eng), Jock McAvoy (Eng), Nigel Benn (Eng), Chris Eubank (Eng), Howard Winstone (Wal), Ricky Hatton (Eng), Peter Kane (Eng), Barry McGuigan (N. Ire) Carl Froch (Eng), John H. Stracey (Eng)
Five for future consideration: Carl Frampton (N. Ire), Josh Taylor (Sco), Tyson Fury, Callum Smith, Anthony Joshua (all Eng)
I'll be posting up the Ken Buchanan vs. Ruben Navarro fight from the LA arena in the next few days. I'll put the link in here to youtube. Not amazing quality but it is a good fight. Did any of you guys attend that one?
The So Cal boxing rivalries have varied throughout the years,but at the crux it has always involved the Mexican national against anyone else who wasn't born in Mexico lindo: The Chicano,Puerto Rican,African American,,Japanese,Filippino,continental European,and American white guy. The hometown So Cal fighter, when pitted against the Mexican national, got the boos,the "chifles",and the beer thrown on him. Fighting at the Olympic Auditorium was like putting on the gloves at the Arena Coliseo.The Chicano fighter,who by law was a certified gringo,never got the recognition from the Hispanic fans in the Southland.For fighters like Alberto Davila and Frankie Duarte it was demoralizing.
The names of the great Mexican fighters would fill up a book. The top prize,the heavyweight championship,is the dream of every aficianado. To see one of his own able of beating up everyone else is a reason for a three day fiesta.. But remember ,it can't be the Chicano . So near yet so far away,he doesn't qualify to sit on the thrown.He's a gringo. A bastard fighter. When Anthony Joshua got de crowned a few weeks ago it was by a fighter by the last name of Ruiz,first name Andy.He may have fit all the qualifications except the big one-he is an American..His mother gave birth to him a few clicks across the Mexican border in the small desert town of Imperial,California. There weren't parades and celebrations and a national holiday proclaimed in the country that has the shape of an upside down sombrero. Only if mamasita would have delivered her son on the other side of the line in Mexicali,they could have renamed the burg Bethlehem.A genuine Mexican heavyweight champion of the world. You tell me your dream and I'll tell you mine.
The Mexican heavyweight Manual Ramos,for a nano second ,after clipping Joe Frazier with a left hook,gave the aficianados a glimpse of seeing what is on the other side..But Joe went to work in a hurry after his legs buckled and that championship belt remained in the U.S. They'll be a rematch with Joshua. Maybe it was a fluke win. I wouldn't be surprised if Joshua is the betting favorite. But for now it is a fighter with the Mexican blood lowing through his veins that's the guy that can beat up everyone else.
There hasn't been a lot of hoopla south of the border about Andy Ruiz.Canelo is still their guy. I'm not saying that Mexico has turned their backs on Ruiz.Like kissing your sister, Mexico has to take what it can get when it boils down to this heavyweight championship thing.-I suppose. Andy Ruiz fits the bill in every category except when he has to show his birth certificate.Ouch!
But guess who invited good ol' Andy to dinner at the White House?No,it wasn't Donald Trump.You see Mexico calls their presidents' digs the "White House" too"-La Casa Blanca. So newly elected president Obrador put out a spread and the 21 gun salute for the Chicano American heavyweight champ Andy Ruiz. I'm sure no one at the dinner table was speaking English. They probably all agreed that Trump is a bum and skirted the technicality that Andy's driver's license was issued in California.
Maybe Andy Ruiz is as close as Mexico will get to having one of their own as being the best prizefighter in the world. Maybe Joshua will take him nexttime. But right now,at this moment,in the nooks and crannies of Mexico's mind,a Mexican is the heavyweight champion. Notice I left out the quotation marks. Damn it. If only his mother would have crossed the border to visit her sister in Mexicali the day she gave birth to her son.
Wow! Talk about a picture worth a thousand words. Often heard about the Tepito District, but the pic is brutal in its graphic splendor. Among other boxing greats you mentioned that came from that locale was Rodolfo Martinez and Halimi Gutierrez. Also, I'm not certain but I think the Gomez brothers, Famoso and Famosito, came from the area as well. Amazing how one particular geographic region can produce such talent.
dagosd2000 wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 10:15
Dan
Don't get me wrong. I hyperbolize a lot. Tepito is a place I don't think many would have the desire to live,but the bottom line is that it is a neighborhood with schools(probably with a lot less problems than many of the schools here.If a problem kid doesn't want to go to school he doesn't have to go or they kick him out for good. Thus no problem),churches,families,a working class..They're certainly street smart. Unlike here in this country there are not the safety nets to provide for people who are at the bottom. Most of the homeless in the U.S. are on some kind of government handout. People that live in Tepito don't wake up in the morning and complain about living in a slum.. I'm not saying they're ecstatic,but why complain to someone who's living next door who's just like them? You might wonder where they go to work. Well,they work in the streets selling stuff. Millions of people in Mexico City work this way. It's the biggest swap meet in the world. My sister in law and hers sons sold cheese,cream,and eggs on the sidewalk. The merchants who have store fronts complain,but in order to work in the street the sellers pay the city officials. Everyone is wearing Milk Bone underwear.
This is for Chuck Johnston. Remember Chuck,a year or so ago I mentioned that Mickey Mantle participated in an Old Timers Game at Yankee Stadium and his teammate Whitey Ford was on the mound. Mickey wanted to hit one out(and so did all the fans).He chose to hit right handed.Chuck ,you mentioned that Yankee Stadium had that short right field porch.. But straight down the left field line the distance was only 297. He asked Whitey to set him up inside. Well,Mantle got his pitch and hit it out for a homerun. The ball must have traveled over 4oo feet anyway. It wouldn't have made any difference what side of the box he was swinging from. Somehow,,Yankee Stadium,Mel Allen,Whitey Ford,and Mickey Mantle are perfect metaphors for this day in our history.Happy 4th of July
An American treasure-Mickey Mantle.You couldn't have come up with a better name for a slugger.
This is on the level.When I was a kid there was a big Portuguese neighborhood near where I lived in san Diego. The Portuguese and Italians controlled the tuna fishing industry. I remember when the Portuguese kids came across the pond from Portugal to settle in in San Diego.The only English they knew was "Meekey Mantle"
dagosd2000 wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 22:07
This is for Chuck Johnston. Remember Chuck,a year or so ago I mentioned that Mickey Mantle participated in an Old Timers Game at Yankee Stadium and his teammate Whitey Ford was on the mound. Mickey wanted to hit one out(and so did all the fans).He chose to hit right handed.Chuck ,you mentioned that Yankee Stadium had that short right field porch.. But straight down the left field line the distance was only 297. He asked Whitey to set him up inside. Well,Mantle got his pitch and hit it out for a homerun. The ball must have traveled over 4oo feet anyway. It wouldn't have made any difference what side of the box he was swinging from. Somehow,,Yankee Stadium,Mel Allen,Whitey Ford,and Mickey Mantle are perfect metaphors for this day in our history.Happy 4th of July
An American treasure-Mickey Mantle.You couldn't have come up with a better name for a slugger.
This is on the level.When I was a kid there was a big Portuguese neighborhood near where I lived in san Diego. The Portuguese and Italians controlled the tuna fishing industry. I remember when the Portuguese kids came across the pond from Portugal to settle in in San Diego.The only English they knew was "Meekey Mantle"
In San Diego? Where Ted Williams was born and raised? Seriously, the Japanese virtually started the tuna industry, remaining a dominant force, in California before World War II, but things changed dramatically when they were put into relocation camps. Hope that you had a great Fourth of July, Roger!
dagosd2000 wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 22:07
This is for Chuck Johnston. Remember Chuck,a year or so ago I mentioned that Mickey Mantle participated in an Old Timers Game at Yankee Stadium and his teammate Whitey Ford was on the mound. Mickey wanted to hit one out(and so did all the fans).He chose to hit right handed.Chuck ,you mentioned that Yankee Stadium had that short right field porch.. But straight down the left field line the distance was only 297. He asked Whitey to set him up inside. Well,Mantle got his pitch and hit it out for a homerun. The ball must have traveled over 4oo feet anyway. It wouldn't have made any difference what side of the box he was swinging from. Somehow,,Yankee Stadium,Mel Allen,Whitey Ford,and Mickey Mantle are perfect metaphors for this day in our history.Happy 4th of July
An American treasure-Mickey Mantle.You couldn't have come up with a better name for a slugger.
This is on the level.When I was a kid there was a big Portuguese neighborhood near where I lived in san Diego. The Portuguese and Italians controlled the tuna fishing industry. I remember when the Portuguese kids came across the pond from Portugal to settle in in San Diego.The only English they knew was "Meekey Mantle"
In San Diego? Where Ted Williams was born and raised? Seriously, the Japanese virtually started the tuna industry, remaining a dominant force, in California before World War II, but things changed dramatically when they were put into relocation camps. Hope that you had a great Fourth of July, Roger!
- Chuck Johnston
Ted Williams was born and raised in this house in the Normal Heights area of San Diego.He went to school at Hoover High School.I have some old press releases from the San Diego Union when he was a star baseball player for the team.(1934) The house is still there and occupied. After WW II there were a few Japanese who remained in the tuna industry. My neighbor Minoru Takasugi(who was interned)owned a small tuna boat(300 tons).He sold out. The Portuguese had the majority control of the industry.The Italians a distant 2nd. When our government started putting "observers" on the boats to make sure dolphins weren't being netted things started to go south. More ocean territory was being relinquished to Mexico and South America..The canneries in San Diego(Westgate) and Long Beach closed and moved overseas.Crews were being picked up in places like Panama and Samoa. The Portuguese and Italians decided to sell out(started in the 70's).They made their money ,invested it wisely,and bought nice homes in the posh section of Point Loma. I had a quiet 4th.Thanks.Take care.
James "The Heat" Kinchen was telling that when he fought in Tijuana at the Municipal Auditorium they put all the fighters on the card together in the same dressing room.
"It really freaked me out,"said The Heat before he had to get up on the podium and give the Sunday sermon at the Helping Hands of God Church. "All the fighters were loading up their gloves right out in the open."
"Wasn't there any one from the commission to watch what was going on?"I asked.
"If there was no one cared. It was like everyone does it so it's OK."
"How about you?"
"I was fighting another American fighter. We didn't do it. Besides,I wouldn't have done that."
"I think this Margarito got away with it for a long time,"I said.
"He busted up Cotto pretty bad."
"I'm glad Mosely's people caught him."
"The word was around the gyms that he was fighting with loaded gloves,"remarked James.
"He was sure nothing after he got exposed,"I said.
"Another fighter like that was Aaron Pryor. Fighters wouldn't even spar with him."
"They should have put that Panama Lewis in jail for what he made Resto do against Collins."
James opened his bible to Genesis-the part about Cain slaying his brother Abel scanning the verses.It was going to be his sermon.
"Roger,you know it took the Lord to show me the way. My life was in a tailspin."
"You look like you're happy,"I said.
As I said this,I could see that James was still in pretty good shape and could probably handle himself almost as good as he was in his prime if the time arose.
"You know my son says he wants to be a fighter."said James very softly.
"Are you going to let him?"I asked.
"It's his decision."
Then James shut his bible and tossed it on the pew.
"But Roger let me tell you this.If I knew that some fighter fought my son with loaded gloves,I'd take off this collar and make him pay dearly . The word" redemption" would have no meaning with me."
The Reverend James Kinchen
The first time I saw Duran fight was on TV when he beat Ken Buchanan. Roberto was a wild man.He tore into Buchanan with a savagery I had never seen before in the ring. But his ferocity didn't stop after the referee had seen enough of the carnage. It was like Roberto wanted to take on some more.Maybe someone who didn't like the way he pummled away at Buchanan. After one of his fights a victim's wife jumped into the ring hysterically going after Roberto. He chalked up another KO by letting her have it-no punches pulled. He was quoted saying"One look at me and fighters would crap in their pants." Duran would carry that viciousness around with him it seemed like a 24/7 mantra. There was a story passed along that American heavyweight Jerry Quarry was visiting Panama and ran across the lightweight champ. They say Roberto wanted to take on Jerry right there and then. I'm sure Roberto had a pretty fair size entourage behind him that stepped between the two before they mauled each other. But that's what legends are built on.Not only what transpires within the squared circle,but all the extra curricular episodes outside the ropes. Duran ate,drank,snorted,and f----d his brains out until he decided to throw up his hands and say "no mas" the second time with Leonard. Oh,he was still trying to scare the whole world after that,but the burning of the candle at opposite ends was taking a toll. Tommy Hearns handed him his most humiliating defeat. Hearn's right hand had Roberto's face meeting the canvas before the rest of his torso had a chance to get there. I remember Emmanuel Steward saying afterwards that Hearns didn't get psyched out by Duran's predictable pre fight macho mad dogging. But that anger,turmoil,craziness;whatever it was, was Roberto Duran's identity-and his fans wanted to share that ire.
Soon after beating Ken Buchanan,Roberto returned to his old neighborhood,the impoverished barrio El Chorillo in Panama City.He had a house built there.. it was a very big house. In Latin America It's not unusual to see a very big nice house standing out in the midst of a slum. Duran's digs was a beaute. They did a documentary on Duran and in one of the segments they showed Roberto looking out over the wall in the backyard of his house(with the shards of broken bottles cemented into the top of the wall to keep the trespassers out.That's very common in Latin America).He was resting his chin on his hands ,staring out into a dirt lot watching a bunch of scroungy kids playing a pick up game of soccer. The camera moved close to Duran.Tears were streaming down Duran's cheeks. He didn't say anything. ,didn't move. The kids didn't know he was watching. During that moment "Hands Of Stone" was the "Face Of Empathy".Those kids were "him". He saw himself when he was a boy, barefooted, playing soccer in a field of rocks and broken glass.
The mask was off in that scene in that scene. He didn't want to eat anyone alive.He didn't want to hit anyone. Maybe remembering his childhood had a hand in stoking his fire.But that day, looking out over the wall watching those kids play, made Roberto Duran cry.
Jim Corbett, in 1892 ,ran circles around The Boston Strong Boy,John L. Sullivan, to win the first heavyweight championship fought under the guidelines of the Marquis Of Queensbury rules,.However,the gentleman from the Bay Area found the acting profession more to his liking.He was spending more time learning his lines than breaking a sweat in the gymnasium. He was a narcissist and arrogant individual and believed that his theatrical talents were more becoming than continuing in a sport that could mark up his pretty face and muss up his hair.His conquering of Sullivan seemed to sate his boxing ego for the time being. Before he lost his title to Bob Fitzsimmons in 1897 ,Corbett only defended his title twice.-a three round stoppage of Charlie Mitchell and a four round draw with Tom Sharkey. Pretty pedestrian by any day's standards.
While Corbett was emoting on the an San Francisco and New York stages,,he decided to take time to bestow his crown on the winner of his handpicked choices,Peter Maher and Steve O'Donnel.The "championship" fight didn't last a round with Maher getting his hand raised at the end of 63 seconds. Corbett who was at the fight then jumped into the ring and faced Maher.
"I give you the title",emoted Jim.
Maher then symbolically gave Jim the "finger" by refusing the honor saying that matters needed to be settled in the ring between him and Corbett. Maher kept on fighting when Corbett refused to meet him. Maher then went on to fight the best contender out there at the time,Bob Fitzsimmons.The sub rosa match was made just below the Texas boundary in Mexico since fighting was considered a brutal affair in the Panhandle State even though gunslingers could tote their shotguns in the streets and blast away when the mood struck them. Ruby Robert KO'd the "champ" Maher in less than a round .The ring was nothing more than 4 mesquite ring posts strung around with some cowboy lariats,the "canvas" comprised of dirt,rocks,and cactus.
Corbett didn't want to fight Fitzsimmons. He considered him uncouth and not Shakespearean enough .Fitzsimmons meanwhile didn't hesitate to defend his pretentious title. The National Athletic Club of San Francisco proposed a match between Fitzsimmons and the transplanted Irishmam "Sailior" Tom Sharkey. The date was December 2,1896.The venue,the Mechanics Pavilion.Prize money was 10 grand to the winner.The fight was scheduled for ten rounds.
But there was a bone of contention before the boys would trade leather-the opposing managers ,Martin Julian representing Fitzsimmons,and Sharkey's guy Danny Lynch ,couldn't come up with agreeable name. Finally,James Gibbs of The National Athletic Club quashed the debate and announced that his selection would be none other than"the bravest fighter,squarest gambler,best friend and worst enemy ever known on the frontier".That description was aimed the most famous lawman who ever packed a six shooter in the Wild West,Wyatt Earp.
Well ,right away Martin Julian called "foul." He didn't trust Earp even though he had refereed dozens of fights in San Diego and Tijuana.But these bouts were a long time ago ,pre Marquis of Queensbury,when fighters could legally do anything in the ring that today would warrant a felony charge:"hitting below the belt,kicking,scratching,biting,choking,gouging.The only useful purpose of the referee was to administer the count ,and to declare the winner if the fight went the distance. Wyatt Earp had never refereed a Marquis of Queensbury fight before. However,Danny Lynch was just fine with the man who filled up Boot Hill all by himself.
Julian protested,but Gibbs stood his ground with his choice of Earp. Fitzsimmons told Martin Julian to let the fight proceed.While the combatants and their seconds were standing in the ring with Earp nattily attired with topcoat and vest,the police chief noticed a peculiar bulge in Earp's vest pocket.The police captain entered the ring and confronted Earp.
"Have you got a gun?"inquired one of San Francisco's finest.
"Yep," answered an embarrassed Earp.
"Well,you better let me have it,"orderd the police captain.
"All right,"said Earp and pulled his Navy Colt revolver from his breast pocket.
The fight was controversial and suspicions ran rampant afterwards. Fitzsimmons was having his way with the "Sailor."Earp could have justifiably stopped the slaughter on several occasions. Fitzsimmons, the heavy betting favorite, was as safe as a church it seemed. In the eighth round it looked like Fitz wanted to end it. A big right uppercut straightened up the crouched Sharkey. .Fitzsimmons then followed with a hook to Sharkey's body. Tom dropped to the floor like he was he hit with an ice pick. Sharkey rolled around writhing and screaming while Fitzsimmons stood over him laughing shaking his head. Sharkey's men carried the wailing fighter back to his corner.Fitzsimmons and everyone at ringside thought Sharkey was shamming. Earp walked over to Sharkey's corner,had a short conversation with Danny Lynch,and then declared the agonizing Sharkey the winner on a foul. The ringside doc was not allowed in Sharkey's dressing room after the fight to examine if Tom's testicles were tortured. It wasn't until the next day the doc got to see Sharkey's gonads, and sure enough they looked like coconuts. But did Tom get kicked in the balls after he was in the dressing room? An inquiry concluded there wasn't enough proof of foul play. The conspiracy theories would bounce around for ever it seemed..Earp's reputation carried about enough credence as a tin badge.
When Wyatt Earp was asked by the panel why he was packin' iron ,,he said he was worried that the fight's outcome wouldn't settle with the crowd ,and that's why he had his blue steel "friend" with him in case he had to shoot his way out of a scrape.That would have been better than the fight.
On ESPN Saturday night will be an important welterweight fight between Jamal James of Minneapolis fighting the former WBC champ Antonio Demarco from Tijuana. The bout will take place in James' backyard at the Armory in Minneapolis. The reason I'll be watching is that DeMarco is trained and managed by Romulo Quirarte,the long time operator of the CREA Gym in Tijuana. I was watching a preview of the match on TV and became aware that DeMarco married Quirarte's granddaughter. I believe she is the daughter of former champ Jibaro Perez's first wife and Romulo Quirarte's daughter.. Quirarte must be excited ,as well as Antonio,because the winner looks like he might get a fight with one of multitude of very good welterweights:Crawford,Thurman,Spence,Manny-the list goes on. Another reason I've made this post is that for years I've mispronounced Romulo Quirarte's name.I've been calling him Romulo Rodarte. Sorry.
DeMarco has lost 4 of his last 6. It's kind of make it or beak it time for him. I hope he wins. Quiratre goes way back with Tijuana fighters at the CREA. When I was working at CETYs,the private school in TJ coaching American football, sometimes I'd drop in at the CREA and watch the fighters train. This was in the mid to late 80's.Quiarte had his son in law sitting on the throne at the time. He was very popular with the aficianados in TJ..Perez and Quirarte had a falling out when Jibaro began to unravel ,not only losing the title,but separating from his wife ,Quirarte's daughter. However the last time I saw Quirarte at the CREA he was training Jibaro's son.But it wasn't anything serious.Jibaro Jr. is a popular dentist in Tijuana.
Quirarte's main purpose for staying active at the CREA is to keep kids from getting caught up with the cartels. Good for him. He has a lot respect not only in the boxing circles,but also in the community.When Julio Cesar Chavez came up from Sinaloa,he hooked up with Quirarte for a spell. Quirarte has also worked with Jose Luis Castillo and Maramero Perez,
I'm sure all the fighters at the CREA will be watching the fight along with the other former Tijuana world champs Antonio Margarito,Erik Morales,and Julio Cesar Chavez. This James looks like a tough kid,but he better not let his guard down Saturday.
Romulo Quirarte
Lots were a lot of Latino fighters with the sobriquet "Kid"..There was Kid Gavilan,Kid Tunero.Kid Irapuato.Kid Azteca. How about Kid Pambele?Or Cocoa Kid? Jose Napoles's trainer was Kid Rapidez. Kid Chocolate we can't forget. Years ago I was watching a replay of one of Toluco Lopez's fights. The ring announcer introduced him as Kid Toluco. But when you think of that moniker you want to make connection with someone who just started shaving.
Archie Moore was "The Mongoose".By the time he approached his 4th decade of putting on the gloves,he morhped into "The Old Mongoose."I can't imagine a fighter who grew up with boxing and fighting for decades the nickname "Kid",then being called "The Old Kid." Kid Gavilan's career in the ring lasted 14 years. He engaged in over 140 fights that have been recorded,but he was never considered as an "Old Kid" at the end. I think that's considered an oxymoron,and not to mention pretty dumb.
When I look back at fighters,i often refer to them as
"kids."
"I remember that fighter.He was a pretty good looking "kid."
"That "Kid" had the stuff to be a champ."
"That" kid "had too many tricks up his sleeve for that guy tonight."
But when a fighter gets that name "Kid" hung on him,it's usually because he's a pretty slick boy. Did I say "boy"? I remember a Brit with that name,Dave "Boy" Green. I guess he wasn't slick enough to be a "kid." so he stayed a "boy",but can say he was never a "baby."
The 'Kid' moniker was pretty common in British boxing too. Two of the very best, Ted Lewis and Jackie Berg went by Kid as did the adopted Hogan Bassey.
Of course, Eder Jofre's dad, Aristedes, was known as Kid Jofre.
Before the World Boxing Hall Of Fame terminated because of a lack of funds, I served on the Board Of Directors for a year.. I can't remember why I was chosen ,or if I applied for the position. The only duty I performed was selecting 6 candidates to be inducted into the World Boxing Hall Of Fame. I don't know how the candidates were selected. I knew only that out of the 15 or so names on the list I had to pick, six. I know there more than just fighters on that list. There were managers,trainers,and writers,but I can't recall any of the names on that list nor who I cast my votes for except for one-Henry Cooper. Henry didn't get voted in.That I know for sure.
Looking back on Henry's career you could make a strong case for ,and a valid reason why he should have been omitted. I think there are more Brits that post on the different forums on BoxRec than any of the other ilks.. BoxRec got its start in England and I see a lot of activity from the fans from across the Pond.The British like talking about their fighters,but most of what I notice is back and forth about fighters from the 80's to the present.
Once in awhile Henry Cooper's name comes up,but most of that rhetoric revolves around his fights with the same man with two different names.You know who I'm talking about. The first fight at Wembley Stadium has been picked apart,scrutinized,and bombarded with the mythical "what ifs."
I've never bought the idea that Clay(that's who he was back then) got an inordinate amount of help from Angelo Dundee with the tearing open of the glove thus letting his charge get time to clear his head. Clay/Ali was one of boxing's greatest survivors in the ring. His will always seemed to find a way to prevail when confronted with adversity. Hemingway would have included him as an example in his list of Grace Under Pressure people. Clay dancing around Ol' Henry,flicking his jabs off Coop's paper thin skin,it was just a matter of time that the referee would call a halt to the fight before they would have to bring in bottles from the Blood Bank.
Oh,the "what iffers" say that if Cooper would have connected with that left early in the 4th round Clay would have been Melba toast. I don't think so. He would have got on his bicycle,start grabbing;anything to recover his senses.He was always a fast "recoveror."
Anyway, enough of that. Their next fight was more bleeding by Cooper even though he was fighting the same guy who now had gone to the Bureau Of Records to get his name changed. Henry Cooper probably left more blood on the mat than a gored bull in the bullring. Henry had an Achilles Face. You didn't have to hit him in the face. A near miss would evoke enough energy to split the skin and cause the "cut mam" to reach for the Vaseline.
With all my cynicism you might be wondering by now why I put an "x" in the box next to Cooper's name when that ballot was on my desk. Two reasons:one concrete,the other subjective and a little sentimental. I'll begin with the just the facts ma'am. Maybe it's slipped by me,but I've never seen any posts about Cooper's winning of the EBU Heavyweight Title from Jose Manuel Urtain of Spain. Before the match with Cooper,Urtain had rung up more than 30 straight KO's.Nat Fleischer the editor of his dear Ring Magazine,put Jose on the cover of The Ring with a list of all Spaniard's fallen foes. Fleischer,who thought of the day's contemporary fighters as being inferior to the turn Of The Century lot, said "No man who ever held the heavyweight title could match Urtain's feats of strength." Urtain was an inch under 6 foot,but he had the torso of a bull.He looked like he was chiseled from the Pyrenees and a jaw broken off from the Rock Of Gibraltar.He and his sister were the Rock Lifting Champions of Spain. Urtain said "Let me find the mark and my opponent is done."Franco was willing to put up a million dollars of his country's dough to have Urtain fight Joe Frazier in Spain.Urtain was called the new "El Cid." He was the biggest Conquistador since Cortez.
When the Cooper match was negotiated to be held at Wembley Stadium,it didn't matter much that Urtain would not have a home crowd advantage. Jose would find the "mark" and Henry would become on blot of blood on the canvas. But Henry could do something that Jose couldn't do -box. When the fight happened in 1970,Henry had been boxing and bleeding for 16 years. He had fought much better opponents than Jose and been in bigger fights,
If you ever want to see a guy get schooled ,watch on YouTube the fight between Cooper and Urtain. For me it was Hank's biggest win.it came at the end of his career. He'd lose his next and finale against Joe Bugner. Urtain kept moving in but was leaving his face exposed. it was like"Here's my face.Go ahead and hit it."And Henry had no problem leaving His mark. He caught Urtain with short stuff on the inside:jabs,hooks,counters. Not a lot of hard shots,but by the end Uratin was exhausted,TKO'd, and went back to Iberia without his title belt. That's my hard evidence for checking "Cooper" in the square.
Now my grounds on the subjective.I love Henry for sentimental reasons. More precisely,he was such a good sport when he lost. I sometimes wanted to see him lose just because he was such a damn good loser. In his first fight with Cassius,in the 5th round when he was drowning in his own blood and the ref Tommy Little had seen enough,Ol' Henry wanted to go on,but realized he had lost fair and square despite what the conspiracy theorists wrote in the papers the next day.
My heart really went out to him. I saw a picture of Cooper in a magazine. I guess he helped out with the family's green grocer business.(Love that green grocer stuff.Has a better ring than "produce.").In the picture he's standing next to some old gal wearing spectacles and donning a cloth coat.They're holding up a couple of apples. They both have big s--t eating grins on their faces.
Henry Cooper won 3 Lonsdale Belts. He is the only fighter to be awarded knighthood.And he got my vote to be inducted into the World Boxing Hall Of Fame. For a guy who spilt blood, not to mention a lot of his own,it's hard to find such a good sport in a sport that has its share of not so goods.
elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 13:06
Anyone of you remember the great Vicente Saldivar?
Does anyone of you remember the fights at the Arena Coliseo in Mexico City?
Does anyone in here remember Mexican legendary announcer Antonio Andere?
Elmer
Here in the Southland Saldivar is remembered fondly.His destruction of Raul Rojas at the Memorial Coliseum in LA was a prime example of his toughness and durability. I saw him(when supposedly at the peak of his career)lose miserably to Kuniaka Shibata at the Municipal Auditorium in Tijuana. He looked tired and drained. His corner stopped the fight.The turning point on his way to the top as a UD against Ismael Laguna in the Tijuana bullring.Saldivar honed his teeth at the Arena Coliseo,but like the other great Mexican champions,after winning the title,never went back to the Arena Coliseo for a defense. He did fight,however,at the Estadio Azteca.
Vicente Saldivar
I remember watching Andere on Mexican TV.Most of the weekly bouts came from Mexico City and the Arena Coliseo. He also announced all the big fights. He was Mexico's counterpart to our Don Dunphy. A spokesman,a man with sincerity,a legend in Mexico.
Saldivar was a truly great fighter. He probably doesn’t get as much recognition as a whole when discussing Mexico’s finest which isn’t fair. Skill? Check. Resume? Check. Entertainment value? Check. He’s a top 5 Mexican fighter ever in my view. Winstone, Laguna, Famechon and Legra all had incredibly difficult styles and he’s 6-0 against that quartet. He probably stopped one or two of them from being considered “great”.
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 09:34
Saldivar was a truly great fighter. He probably doesn’t get as much recognition as a whole when discussing Mexico’s finest which isn’t fair. Skill? Check. Resume? Check. Entertainment value? Check. He’s a top 5 Mexican fighter ever in my view. Winstone, Laguna, Famechon and Legra all had incredibly difficult styles and he’s 6-0 against that quartet. He probably stopped one or two of them from being considered “great”.
I remember when Saldivar fought Jofre for the title. Jofre was in top form.the featherweight limit being more to his liking.Saldivar,after losing to Shibata needed to have some good tune up fights in order to get back into the ring and fight such a good fighter as Jofre. 2 1/2 years without a fight and then taking on Jofre,Salfivar was unprepared. I remember the Mexican fans where astonished that Saldivar was KO'd in only 4 rounds.He was once such a durable and strong fighter. Jofre took fighting more seriously than Saldivar.By the time they faced each other Saldivar was only a shell of his former self.. Jofre reminded me of Marciano-always in good condition. Many of the great Mexican champions eventually lost their dedication when it came to preparation, and it caught up with them. Staying on top is more difficult than attaining the title. Too many temptations,distractions. Jofre,like Marciano ,never got sidetracked.
I was watching that movie "Marty" on my DVD player. I went out and got it on DVD because it's one of my favorite movies and I can watch it anytime I want. Ernest Borgnine deserved an Oscar for best actor. The movie came out in 1955 and shot in New York in the Bronx. The film was in black and white which it should have been.I'll run by the plot real fast. Marty Piletti is a 34 year old butcher living with his mother. All his other brothers and sisters are married.He wants to get a girlfriend and one day get married,but he's kind of shy and sensitive and can't get the right words out when speaking to girls.He calls himself a "dog." Everyone is on Marty's case about getting married:his mother,his relatives,the whole neighborhood. Every weekend he hangs out with similar social misfits(dogs) in his neighborhood. They sit around trying to figure out what to do. They want to get laid.They just can't get to square one.One night Marty's mother is ragging on him about finding a nice girl and getting married like she always does. She wants Marty to put on his blue suit and go to the dance room and meet a nice girl. Mary loses it,but relents and puts on the blue suit. He goes to the dance room and kind of like a happenstance meets this girl(another bow wow) who's been dumped by her date. She's like Marty,a social awkward type(arf!),but things get a a clickin' between the pair and they wind up together at the end of the movie and I assume they get married and live happily ever after. Great flick.
When they talk "Italian" movies the usual suspects are brought up;the Godfathers(1 & 2.No.3 wasn't a fit),Goodfellas,Mean Streets,Bronx Tale,Analyze This and That. Just about anything with DeZero in it. When I was younger I thought those movies were cool,but now I don't watch them if they're on the tube. They glorify all that Mafia B.S. I grew up around that stuff.. It ain't cool. But there are Italians out there that think they identify with someone like Al Capone. You know,Al Capone,,the guy who got syphilis and went to Alcatraz.Real cool.No.I like movies with Italians in them like "Marty." I remember Italians like that when I was growing up in Chicago. Yeah.There were the mob guys,but they all wound up either dead or in jail.Their families came undone as a result..Real cool.
So what the hell am I getting at? Tie the previous two paragraphs to boxing. A stretch? Hell no. I remember living in the Southwest Side in 1955 in Chicago when Marciano was still the heavyweight champ.Marty Piletti's neighborhood reminded me where I used to live. Everything was divided up and accepted more or less. The men had their roles.The women had theirs,and then there were the kids. Family and the Catholic church were the centerpieces.Everyone stayed within those boundaries. The talk amongst the men was mostly sports. The Chicago teams weren't doing so hot as I remember. The White Sox were in the middle of the division,.The Cubs and the Phillies would fight it out for the cellar.There were no Bulls.The Bears would get into contention ,but everyone hated Halas because he was a "tight Greek."The other pro football team,the Cardinals would score a lot,but give up more points on the defensive side of the ball.The Black Hawks were there,but dagos aren't into ice skating.i'd have to say the biggest sport's topic was boxing.
The 50's had a strong list of Italian fighters.There was Basilio,DeMarco,Willie Pep was still goin'.Billy Graham,Joe Miceli,Joey Giardello,and Pastrano,.LaMotta and Graziano were either just done or a fight or two away from leaving the sport. But Italians had in their corner,God;excuse me, I meant to say Rocky Marciano. I can just see Marty Piletti with all his buddies hanging out in the poolroom drinking beer and talking about Rocky Marciano's fights. I remember when Marciano beat Joe Louis. it was like the walls of Jericho come tumblin' down. Louis,who had beat up plenty of spaghetti eaters in his career, finally found his final resting place on the cancas,his leg dangling on the rope like a linguini,via Rocky Marciano's Suzy Q right hand. The Atom Bomb had nothing on Rocky's Suzy Q.If Truman had only thought of sending Rocky over to Korea with his Suzy Q the war would have been over faster than you can say The Brown Bomber.
But there weren't any lines in "Marty" about boxing or Rocky Marciano or Suzy Q. Maybe Paddy Chayefsky ,who wrote the story ,wasn't a boxing fan. Maybe he left the "boxing" movies to Budd Shulberg. But you can take this to the bank. In the poolroom on the Southwest Side you couldn't swing a dead cat and not hit anyone who wouldn't be talking about how Rocky Marciano made Joe Louis look like a canole
