Sugar Ray vs Marvelous Marvin in '82: What if...?

[Syntax Error]

A lot of folk quite rightly claim that Hagler was better in '82 and think for that reason it's a no-brainer.

What you have to remember is that Leonard was also a lot better in '82; in fact, '82 was the zenith of his career.

He was the undisputed champion following his titanic unification with the nuclear missile that was Tommy Hearns.

Whilst I would still lean towards Hagler, I am in no means unequivocal about it.

Leonard was a formidable fighter with an epic skillset and was bang in his prime and I just cannot fathom anyone knocking him out whilst he was a living fighter.

[Nile4000]

A lot of folk quite rightly claim that Hagler was better in '82 and think for that reason it's a no-brainer.

What you have to remember is that Leonard was also a lot better in '82; in fact, '82 was the zenith of his career.

He was the undisputed champion following his titanic unification with the nuclear missile that was Tommy Hearns.

Whilst I would still lean towards Hagler, I am in no means unequivocal about it.

Leonard was a formidable fighter with an epic skillset and was bang in his prime and I just cannot fathom anyone knocking him out whilst he was a living fighter.

Concur, but there was that reason that both Hearns and Leonard didn't really want a piece of Hacker at that time.

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard did want a piece of Hagler. When he finally got it, he beat him. He did that because as great as Hagler was, Leonard was that much better.

[Nile4000]

But he waited until 1987 to get at him. Peak Hagler had him and Leonard shook.

[elmersalsa]

In 1982, Marvelous was at his very TOTAL BEST.

[Ambling Alp II]

But he waited until 1987 to get at him. Peak Hagler had him and Leonard shook.

He didn't "wait" until 1982. If it wasn't for the eye problems, they would have fought much sooner.

Fighting in 1987 helped Hagler a lot more than it helped Leonard. Leonard was the one with all the ring rust, not Hagler. Hagler was closer to his best than Leonard was his. And Leonard still beat him.

[Syntax Error]

In 1982, Marvelous was at his very TOTAL BEST.

So was Leonard.

[Nile4000]

But he waited until 1987 to get at him. Peak Hagler had him and Leonard shook.

He didn't "wait" until 1982. If it wasn't for the eye problems, they would have fought much sooner.

Fighting in 1987 helped Hagler a lot more than it helped Leonard. Leonard was the one with all the ring rust, not Hagler. Hagler was closer to his best than Leonard was his. And Leonard still beat him.

Remember when Ray wanted Hagler to come down to 154. He knew the deal. Marvin had him shook.

[Ambling Alp II]

Well, he knew Hagler would never do that.
It's silly to think Leonard waited 5 years to fight Hagler, because he supposedly have the advantage.
He's really going to give up 5 years so that he somehow will have the edge on Hagler?
That makes no sense.

Put it in 2019 terms. You are a welterweight who is the best fighter in the world. There is a middleweight who is making noise. Are you really going to take a fight in 2021, then wait until 2024 to fight him? Do you really think you (the guy out almost 5 years) will have an edge?

Besides the fact that for all Leonard knew Hagler would retire before than or lose to someone else who came a long in the next 5 years..

The whole idea is absurd.

[elmersalsa]

In 1982, Marvelous was at his very TOTAL BEST.

So was Leonard.

Then, why he didn't challenged Marvelous then? Why he had to wait for Marvelous to slipped? Was he scared?

[elmersalsa]

Well, he knew Hagler would never do that.
It's silly to think Leonard waited 5 years to fight Hagler, because he supposedly have the advantage.
He's really going to give up 5 years so that he somehow will have the edge on Hagler?
That makes no sense.

Put it in 2019 terms. You are a welterweight who is the best fighter in the world. There is a middleweight who is making noise. Are you really going to take a fight in 2021, then wait until 2024 to fight him? Do you really think you (the guy out almost 5 years) will have an edge?

Besides the fact that for all Leonard knew Hagler would retire before than or lose to someone else who came a long in the next 5 years..

The whole idea is absurd.

Then Your whole idea is absurd about Pretty Boy Floyd waited for Pacman to slip up.

[Ambling Alp II]

No idea what you are talking about.

[Syntax Error]

So was Leonard.

Then, why he didn't challenged Marvelous then? Why he had to wait for Marvelous to slipped? Was he scared?

He might have been, but the most likely answer was his detached retina forcing him out of boxing at that point.

[Dart340]

No matter how badly AmblingAlp screeches otherwise, almost everyone watching boxing at that time would rightfully have picked Hagler to walk down and walk through Leonard in 1982. My money would be on Leonard not seeing the championship rounds.

[Brian Seneca]

Well, he knew Hagler would never do that.
It's silly to think Leonard waited 5 years to fight Hagler, because he supposedly have the advantage.
He's really going to give up 5 years so that he somehow will have the edge on Hagler?
That makes no sense.

Put it in 2019 terms. You are a welterweight who is the best fighter in the world. There is a middleweight who is making noise. Are you really going to take a fight in 2021, then wait until 2024 to fight him? Do you really think you (the guy out almost 5 years) will have an edge?

Besides the fact that for all Leonard knew Hagler would retire before than or lose to someone else who came a long in the next 5 years..

The whole idea is absurd.

With all respect because I have read your posts and you know your history. The eye injury was real no doubt and they didn’t have the medical advances we have now to properly fix it. But even Leonard said he saw a “flaw” or something to that effect after Marvin fought Mugabi. He saw a faded worn Hagler that he had a chance at. I don’t dispute Ray’s greatnes, but post Hearns he wasn’t taking ANY fight he felt he could lose. I cannot in anyway see Ray beating Hagler in 82. Without his manipulation ie: big ring, 12 rounds etc etc. Marvin was the undisputed middleweight champion. Yes Ray was undisputed welterweight champion, but they would be fighting for Marvin’s title. He should call the shots. I really can’t see Ray finishing the fight in 82.

[Ambling Alp II]

The manipulation? Big ring, 12 rounds etc. Boohoo, poor Marvin. Nobody ever talks about the size of the ring after a fight except for the Hagler-Leonard fight.
15 rounds would have favored Leonard in 1982. Hagler had one fight over 12 rounds to that point in his career and he faded against the great Vito Antuofermo.

[Ambling Alp II]

No matter how badly AmblingAlp screeches otherwise, almost everyone watching boxing at that time would rightfully have picked Hagler to walk down and walk through Leonard in 1982. My money would be on Leonard not seeing the championship rounds.

Almost everyone watching boxing in 1987 said Hagler would walk through Leonard in 1987. Hagler was closer to his best in 1987 than Leonard. Hagler was great. Leonard was that much better.

[elmersalsa]

No idea what you are talking about.

You know what I am talking about. You want to criticize Pretty Boy Floyd of fighting Manny Pacquiao 5 years later, or when Pacman slipped up. But, Sugar Ray did the same thing for Marvelous. See, it is convenient for you to say you don't know what I am talking about. You know the deal.

[dr_devious]

The manipulation? Big ring, 12 rounds etc. Boohoo, poor Marvin. Nobody ever talks about the size of the ring after a fight except for the Hagler-Leonard fight.
15 rounds would have favored Leonard in 1982. Hagler had one fight over 12 rounds to that point in his career and he faded against the great Vito Antuofermo.

Codswallop

[Ambling Alp II]

No idea what you are talking about.

You know what I am talking about. You want to criticize Pretty Boy Floyd of fighting Manny Pacquiao 5 years later, or when Pacman slipped up. But, Sugar Ray did the same thing for Marvelous. See, it is convenient for you to say you don't know what I am talking about. You know the deal.

You are comparing two situations that were very different.

It helped Mayweather a great deal to fight later. He took very little punishment in his fights and Pacquio took a lot. It was the fight in boxing for quite a while. When it finally happened, Pacquio was way past. He had stopped anyone in five years.

When Leonard fought Hagler, yes Hagler was not 100%. But he was closer to his best than Leonard. Leonard had one fight in five years. That is hardly ideal for a huge fight.
It's ridiculous to think that Leonard sitting out for 5 years it would help his chances.

In over 130 years of boxing, give me another example of a fighter being off for three years and beating a great fighter in his first fight back. Don't duck it like you usually do. Give some examples.

[Ambling Alp II]

The manipulation? Big ring, 12 rounds etc. Boohoo, poor Marvin. Nobody ever talks about the size of the ring after a fight except for the Hagler-Leonard fight.
15 rounds would have favored Leonard in 1982. Hagler had one fight over 12 rounds to that point in his career and he faded against the great Vito Antuofermo.

Codswallop

How so? When was the last time on this Forum (other than Leonard-Hagler) that anyone has talked about the size of the ring for the fight?

Where is the evidence that had they fought in 1982 that Hagler would have the advantage if it went past 12 rounds?
Hagler only did it once. Did he look good during the last few rounds against the legendary Vito Antuofermo?

[dr_devious]

Hagler was a superbly conditioned boxer who really didn't have any problems with stamina. And he wouldn't have need to go 12 rounds let alone 15 to dispatch Leonard in 1982.

[elmersalsa]

You know what I am talking about. You want to criticize Pretty Boy Floyd of fighting Manny Pacquiao 5 years later, or when Pacman slipped up. But, Sugar Ray did the same thing for Marvelous. See, it is convenient for you to say you don't know what I am talking about. You know the deal.

You are comparing two situations that were very different.

It helped Mayweather a great deal to fight later. He took very little punishment in his fights and Pacquio took a lot. It was the fight in boxing for quite a while. When it finally happened, Pacquio was way past. He had stopped anyone in five years.

When Leonard fought Hagler, yes Hagler was not 100%. But he was closer to his best than Leonard. Leonard had one fight in five years. That is hardly ideal for a huge fight.
It's ridiculous to think that Leonard sitting out for 5 years it would help his chances.

In over 130 years of boxing, give me another example of a fighter being off for three years and beating a great fighter in his first fight back. Don't duck it like you usually do. Give some examples.

Marvelous was slipping by the time he fought Sugar Ray. As a matter of fact, Marvelous wasn't fighting much after 1983. Marvelous had:

2 fights in 1984
1 fight in 1985
1 fight in 1986

That win of Sugar Ray against Marvelous wasn't all that impressive. And it showed by the performance of both fighters. That you want to give Sugar Ray credit for going the distance?, fine. It wasn't a big achievement like other boxers have done. That fight should have been made in 1982 or 1983. Not 1987. It was too late for a lot of people.

[elmersalsa]

Hagler was a superbly conditioned boxer who really didn't have any problems with stamina. And he wouldn't have need to go 12 rounds let alone 15 to dispatch Leonard in 1982.

Exactly. Marvelous in 1982 would have crushed Sugar Ray bad.

[Duran1970]

Some people seem to forget that Hagler was retired also...granted not away from the game as long as Leonard was but nonetheless had to be coaxed a great deal to come back for one more......