Joe Frazier V Evander Holyfeild

[dempseyfire]

Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

Ahem… No reason to be insulting. Perhaps you should take a deep breath and try to think reasonably. As I stated, Frazier was dropped by two fighters -- Foreman and Bonavena. He recovered to beat Bonavena and was not counted out against Foreman. Are you suggesting that Riddick Bowe punched as hard as Foreman? And to suggest that Holyfield’s performance against the over the hill and poorly prepared Tyson is a good representation of his chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Please try not to have constipation of the brain and be a little open minded. I did not say that Frazier had a better chin. Simply that to say that Holyfield’s chin was “without question” better than Joe’s is not defensible. And an intellectually empty assertion.

Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple ....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

And I wasn't trying to be insulting...just stating bringing up that a 40 year old washed up Holy was kd by Toney means absolutely nothing in terms of what we disucssing here -

So what?

The Tyson that fought Holyfield (whether you want to call him a prime Mike or not is really not important) was not NEAR the challenge that Frazier would present-Tyson didn't constantly move his head-Frazier didn't have a great defense but he was pretty hard to hit at his best and he tired guys out as they missed shots on a consistently moving target. Tyson faded down the stretch; Joe got stronger. Tyson head-hunted; Frazier killed the body.

You said that Holyfield was never troubled by small HWs. I listed Moorer, Cooper, and you can add in Dokes to that list as well. I won't even mention Chris Byrd and James Toney.

Holyfield was very hurt by a cracked-out late show in Bert Cooper, but he easily beats Frazier? Yes, Holyfield beat Qawi, but their first fight was life and death and shows that Holyfield was troubled by pressure fighters who kept being in his chest. Ever seen the Michael Dokes fight? He did the same thing, and it was really only his conditioning that saved him in that fight (vs a recovering drug addict 20 lbs over his best fighting weight) A prime Frazier is leagues ahead of Qawi, Dokes, and Cooper.

You deride Frazier for losing to a prime Foreman but fail to note that Holyfield was hurt several times by a much older and fatter Foreman. ANd how again is Holyfield def. stronger than Frazier? How do you attain that? When did Holyfield show such superiority vs swarmers-your one cavaet is Tyson, and Tyson didn't even fight in a swarming style!

Bennie is right on the mark-what made Evander special in his era was his conditioning and heart vs the likes of Dokes, Foreman, Mercer, and Tyson, all guys who in the state they fought Holyfield in, were dangerous fighters but not in championship condition. His one fight with a prime HW who was in great condition-Bowe 1-he got outworked and beaten. Holyfield had the assets of speed and conditioning vs the likes of Tyson, Mercer, the Bowe rematch, and even Lennox Lewis (only Evander's own old age/conditioning kept him from clearly pulling away in those fights). Vs guys with equal conditioning and hear to his own, the other truly great HWs, he loses his best advantages. Evander probably still has a small handspeed advantage vs Frazier but that doesn't matter after Evander realizes he's in with someone who is not taking a backwards step AT ALL and is a natural HW with great conditioning. Holyfield's rounds off, which he took even at his best, equal disaster vs guys like Dempsey and Frazier.

[KO Artist]

Ahem… No reason to be insulting. Perhaps you should take a deep breath and try to think reasonably. As I stated, Frazier was dropped by two fighters -- Foreman and Bonavena. He recovered to beat Bonavena and was not counted out against Foreman. Are you suggesting that Riddick Bowe punched as hard as Foreman? And to suggest that Holyfield’s performance against the over the hill and poorly prepared Tyson is a good representation of his chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Please try not to have constipation of the brain and be a little open minded. I did not say that Frazier had a better chin. Simply that to say that Holyfield’s chin was “without question” better than Joe’s is not defensible. And an intellectually empty assertion.

Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple ....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

And I wasn't trying to be insulting...just stating bringing up that a 40 year old washed up Holy was kd by Toney means absolutely nothing in terms of what we disucssing here -

So what?

The Tyson that fought Holyfield (whether you want to call him a prime Mike or not is really not important) was not NEAR the challenge that Frazier would present-Tyson didn't constantly move his head-Frazier didn't have a great defense but he was pretty hard to hit at his best and he tired guys out as they missed shots on a consistently moving target. Tyson faded down the stretch; Joe got stronger. Tyson head-hunted; Frazier killed the body.

You said that Holyfield was never troubled by small HWs. I listed Moorer, Cooper, and you can add in Dokes to that list as well. I won't even mention Chris Byrd and James Toney.

Holyfield was very hurt by a cracked-out late show in Bert Cooper, but he easily beats Frazier? Yes, Holyfield beat Qawi, but their first fight was life and death and shows that Holyfield was troubled by pressure fighters who kept being in his chest. Ever seen the Michael Dokes fight? He did the same thing, and it was really only his conditioning that saved him in that fight (vs a recovering drug addict 20 lbs over his best fighting weight) A prime Frazier is leagues ahead of Qawi, Dokes, and Cooper.

You deride Frazier for losing to a prime Foreman but fail to note that Holyfield was hurt several times by a much older and fatter Foreman. ANd how again is Holyfield def. stronger than Frazier? How do you attain that? When did Holyfield show such superiority vs swarmers-your one cavaet is Tyson, and Tyson didn't even fight in a swarming style!

Bennie is right on the mark-what made Evander special in his era was his conditioning and heart vs the likes of Dokes, Foreman, Mercer, and Tyson, all guys who in the state they fought Holyfield in, were dangerous fighters but not in championship condition. His one fight with a prime HW who was in great condition-Bowe 1-he got outworked and beaten. Holyfield had the assets of speed and conditioning vs the likes of Tyson, Mercer, the Bowe rematch, and even Lennox Lewis (only Evander's own old age/conditioning kept him from clearly pulling away in those fights). Vs guys with equal conditioning and hear to his own, the other truly great HWs, he loses his best advantages. Evander probably still has a small handspeed advantage vs Frazier but that doesn't matter after Evander realizes he's in with someone who is not taking a backwards step AT ALL and is a natural HW with great conditioning. Holyfield's rounds off, which he took even at his best, equal disaster vs guys like Dempsey and Frazier.

Very well put.

[meade95]

Ahem… No reason to be insulting. Perhaps you should take a deep breath and try to think reasonably. As I stated, Frazier was dropped by two fighters -- Foreman and Bonavena. He recovered to beat Bonavena and was not counted out against Foreman. Are you suggesting that Riddick Bowe punched as hard as Foreman? And to suggest that Holyfield’s performance against the over the hill and poorly prepared Tyson is a good representation of his chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Please try not to have constipation of the brain and be a little open minded. I did not say that Frazier had a better chin. Simply that to say that Holyfield’s chin was “without question” better than Joe’s is not defensible. And an intellectually empty assertion.

Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple ....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

And I wasn't trying to be insulting...just stating bringing up that a 40 year old washed up Holy was kd by Toney means absolutely nothing in terms of what we disucssing here -

So what?


You said that Holyfield was never troubled by small HWs. I listed Moorer, Cooper, and you can add in Dokes to that list as well. I won't even mention Chris Byrd and James Toney.

Holyfield was very hurt by a cracked-out late show in Bert Cooper, but he easily beats Frazier? Yes, Holyfield beat Qawi, but their first fight was life and death and shows that Holyfield was troubled by pressure fighters who kept being in his chest. Ever seen the Michael Dokes fight? He did the same thing, and it was really only his conditioning that saved him in that fight (vs a recovering drug addict 20 lbs over his best fighting weight) A prime Frazier is leagues ahead of Qawi, Dokes, and Cooper.

Vs Moorer (a style completely different then Frazier for starters) and Holyfield lost a razor close Maj Dec...and then TKO'd him in a rematch knocking him down 5 times!

Vs Cooper Holyfield WON every round clearly but one...and in the round Cooper hurt him...by the end Holy had Cooper basically out on his feet as well. Yet your somehow suggesting because Holyfield didn't I guess KO him within 3 rounds it proves something?? (I could nitpick the hell out of Joe's record like this too).

Vs Dokes.....Holyfield was new to the HW division (only his 3rd HW fight) and took on the 37-1-2 Dokes who was rated in the top 10 of all the major bodies and as high as #2 or #3 in one of them - It was a great fight without question....but Holyfield was clearly winning on all cards when he TKO'd Dokes in the 10th -

Again if we are going to go this route...Joe struggled terribly with a limted 205 pound Oscar Natalio Bonavena and won a highly disputed split dec -

Vs D. Qawi - Again, you are trying to take Holyfield to task for beating the best CW at that time in the world in only his 11th fight!!...In a 15round war to boot??....To then only mature and a year later KO Qawi easliy in the 4th.

And this BS about Frazier being a natural HW....give me break in the since the Holyfield isn't....or hasn't been in with them (and done damn well).

Frazier fought men who were 210 pounds and less for the most part (the vast majority of his wins are Vs small Hw's) The BIGGEST man Frazier ever beat while champion was a 221 pound Joe Bugner!! - Please... Holyfield would fare just fine with a Joe Frazier who is a "natural HW" as you claim.

And if Frazier didn't want to take a backwards step....Holyfields hand speed would eat him alive.

Come on - Joe was beating up Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Terry Daniels, Jerry Quarry.....these guys didn't even weight 200 pounds!

I love Frazier but the notion that he could handle "true HW's" and Evander couldn't is ridiculous. The size of Bowe and Lennox would have given Frazier all sorts of problems he couldn't imagine. Nor do you know for certain how he would have done.

We know for certain the two biggest men he fought...Ali and Foreman whipped his ass more often then not! (outside of fat Buster Mathis who Joe Ko'd in 4). And neither Ali or Foreman were that "big" by today's standards (or what Holy has had to face)... They weighed less then 225 each of them (Foreman and Ali).


And the notion that Holyfield's only big assets were his heart and conditioning is selling him way short. He had incredibly fast hands....especially in close....threw great combinations and had one of the best "compact" left hooks in the biz (especially ending a 3 punch combo).....He could box as well as bang (though clearly prefered to bang).....he was physically very strong (he'd physically move Frazier in the ring if the two tied up....just like he moved Tyson)...he could take a hell of a shot...and in his prime I don't see Frazier stopping him (for Joe to win it would have to be by dec).

But I can clearly see Holy stopping Frazier or beating him to the punch all night and winning a war of wills over the full 12 or 15 rounds.


Lets also be clear about putting these guys in their primes and how they performed....When Evander was slipping and still fighting at the age of 37...he was losing a razor close (and disputed) decision to Lennox Lewis (a 250 pound stud and at the top of his game at that time).

Frazier was fighting to a 10 round draw with a feeble Floyd Cummings -

Holyfield never lost in the KO fashion that Frazier did in his prime. Frazier was a young 29 when he was destoryed by Foreman (this never happened to a prime Holyfield).

Frazier was a realitively still young 30, 31, and 32 in his other losses - (two by stoppage)

Holyfields first loss didn't come until he was 30...and it was by close dec in a fight of the year Vs the big 235 pound Bowe (who fought a hell of a fight).

[pundit]

who wins this one and why?

The tougher man - Joe Frazier.
However, close one.

[bennie]

Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple ....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

And I wasn't trying to be insulting...just stating bringing up that a 40 year old washed up Holy was kd by Toney means absolutely nothing in terms of what we disucssing here -

So what?


You said that Holyfield was never troubled by small HWs. I listed Moorer, Cooper, and you can add in Dokes to that list as well. I won't even mention Chris Byrd and James Toney.

Holyfield was very hurt by a cracked-out late show in Bert Cooper, but he easily beats Frazier? Yes, Holyfield beat Qawi, but their first fight was life and death and shows that Holyfield was troubled by pressure fighters who kept being in his chest. Ever seen the Michael Dokes fight? He did the same thing, and it was really only his conditioning that saved him in that fight (vs a recovering drug addict 20 lbs over his best fighting weight) A prime Frazier is leagues ahead of Qawi, Dokes, and Cooper.

Vs Moorer (a style completely different then Frazier for starters) and Holyfield lost a razor close Maj Dec...and then TKO'd him in a rematch knocking him down 5 times!

Vs Cooper Holyfiel won every round but one...and in the round Cooper hurt him...by the end Holy had Cooper basically out on his feet as well.

Vs Dokes.....Holyfield was new to the HW division (only his 3rd HW fight) and took on the 37-1-2 Dokes who was rated #1 by one of the major bodies and in the top-8 of all three - It was a great fight without question....but Holyfield was clearly winning on all cards when he TKO'd Dokes in the 10th -

Vs D. Qawi - Again, you are trying to take Holyfield to task for beating the best CW at that time in the world in only his 11th fight!!...In a 15round war to boot??....To then only mature and a year later KO Qawi easliy in the 4th.

And this BS about Frazier being a natural HW....give me break in the since the Holyfield isn't....or hasn't been in with them (and done damn well).

Frazier fought men who were 215 pounds and less. The BIGGEST man Frazier ever beat was a 221 pound Joe Bugner!! - Please... Holyfield would fare just fine with a Joe Frazier who is a "natural HW" as you claim.

And if Frazier didn't want to take a backwards step....Holyfields hand speed would eat him alive.

Come on - Joe was beating up Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Terry Daniels, Jerry Quarry.....these guys didn't even weight 200 pounds!

I love Frazier but the notion that he could handle "true HW's" and Evander couldn't is ridiculous. The size of Bowe and Lennox would have given Frazier all sorts of problems he couldn't imagine. Nor do you know for certain how he would have done.

We know for certain the two biggest men he fought...Ali and Foreman whipped his ass more often then not! (outside of fat Buster Mathis who Joe Ko'd in 4).


And the notion that Holyfield's only big assets were his heart and conditioning is selling him way short. He had incredibly fast hands....especially in close....threw great combinations and had one of the best "compact" left hooks in the biz (especially ending a 3 punch combo).....He could box as well as bang (though clearly prefered to bang).....he was physically very strong (he'd physically move Frazier in the ring if the two tied up....just like he moved Tyson)...he could take a hell of a shot...and in his prime I don't see Frazier stopping him (for Joe to win it would have to be by dec).

But I can clearly see Holy stopping Frazier or beating him to the punch all night and winning a war of wills over the full 12 or 15 rounds.

This WEIGHT notion is the argument used by all 'Butterbean would lick Marciano' types - but the true fans know great fighters are great in ANY era, regardless of a few pounds. Frazier is a GREAT heavyweight. To say he is too small to compete in Holyfield's era is laughable and, frankly, insulting. Put the boot on the other foot: how would all these BIG heavies fare in the 1970s?
Bottom line is: the peak Frazier who walked down Ali in 1971 was better than the peak Holyfield who stopped Tyson in 1996.

[meade95]

So what?


You said that Holyfield was never troubled by small HWs. I listed Moorer, Cooper, and you can add in Dokes to that list as well. I won't even mention Chris Byrd and James Toney.

Holyfield was very hurt by a cracked-out late show in Bert Cooper, but he easily beats Frazier? Yes, Holyfield beat Qawi, but their first fight was life and death and shows that Holyfield was troubled by pressure fighters who kept being in his chest. Ever seen the Michael Dokes fight? He did the same thing, and it was really only his conditioning that saved him in that fight (vs a recovering drug addict 20 lbs over his best fighting weight) A prime Frazier is leagues ahead of Qawi, Dokes, and Cooper.

Vs Moorer (a style completely different then Frazier for starters) and Holyfield lost a razor close Maj Dec...and then TKO'd him in a rematch knocking him down 5 times!

Vs Cooper Holyfiel won every round but one...and in the round Cooper hurt him...by the end Holy had Cooper basically out on his feet as well.

Vs Dokes.....Holyfield was new to the HW division (only his 3rd HW fight) and took on the 37-1-2 Dokes who was rated #1 by one of the major bodies and in the top-8 of all three - It was a great fight without question....but Holyfield was clearly winning on all cards when he TKO'd Dokes in the 10th -

Vs D. Qawi - Again, you are trying to take Holyfield to task for beating the best CW at that time in the world in only his 11th fight!!...In a 15round war to boot??....To then only mature and a year later KO Qawi easliy in the 4th.

And this BS about Frazier being a natural HW....give me break in the since the Holyfield isn't....or hasn't been in with them (and done damn well).

Frazier fought men who were 215 pounds and less. The BIGGEST man Frazier ever beat was a 221 pound Joe Bugner!! - Please... Holyfield would fare just fine with a Joe Frazier who is a "natural HW" as you claim.

And if Frazier didn't want to take a backwards step....Holyfields hand speed would eat him alive.

Come on - Joe was beating up Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Terry Daniels, Jerry Quarry.....these guys didn't even weight 200 pounds!

I love Frazier but the notion that he could handle "true HW's" and Evander couldn't is ridiculous. The size of Bowe and Lennox would have given Frazier all sorts of problems he couldn't imagine. Nor do you know for certain how he would have done.

We know for certain the two biggest men he fought...Ali and Foreman whipped his ass more often then not! (outside of fat Buster Mathis who Joe Ko'd in 4).


And the notion that Holyfield's only big assets were his heart and conditioning is selling him way short. He had incredibly fast hands....especially in close....threw great combinations and had one of the best "compact" left hooks in the biz (especially ending a 3 punch combo).....He could box as well as bang (though clearly prefered to bang).....he was physically very strong (he'd physically move Frazier in the ring if the two tied up....just like he moved Tyson)...he could take a hell of a shot...and in his prime I don't see Frazier stopping him (for Joe to win it would have to be by dec).

But I can clearly see Holy stopping Frazier or beating him to the punch all night and winning a war of wills over the full 12 or 15 rounds.

This WEIGHT notion is the argument used by all 'Butterbean would lick Marciano' types - but the true fans know great fighters are great in ANY era, regardless of a few pounds. Frazier is a GREAT heavyweight. To say he is too small to compete in Holyfield's era is laughable and, frankly, insulting. Put the boot on the other foot: how would all these BIG heavies fare in the 1970s?
Bottom line is: the peak Frazier who walked down Ali in 1971 was better than the peak Holyfield who stopped Tyson in 1996.

Couple points - I never suggested Frazier couldn't compete with today's HW's at all - I was replying to the fact that in Frazier Holyfield would be facing a "real HW, who wouldn't take a step backward" (as another poster had stated)....

When the reality is Holyfield has faced much bigger men then Frazier ...and also much bigger men then Frazier ever had to face.

Furthermore for people to suggest that the size of talented fighters today wouldn't have effected fighters from the 70's is utterly wrong. The size of Bowe, Lennox and such would have caused Frazier all sorts of problems. It most certainly would of -

Again, I am saying of talented big men of today (not the butterbeans Vs Marciano's...that is just silly and below this forum).

But the reality is Frazier was beating guys who mainly weighed less then 205.....a 30 - 40 pounds step up is a hell of a lot .... Those shots that KO or impact a talented 190-200 pound guy...don't usually have the same effect on a just as talented 230 + pound guy -

Again, we are talking talented 230-250 pound guys (not bums).

Furthermore in 1996 Holyfield wasn't at his peak at all - He was seveal years past it - By then he was closing in on 35 years old -

But not to keep on this new "size of fighters doesn't matter" subject.

That would be like saying if 30 years from now...if top HW's are pushing a solid 265-280 range.....That Holyfield would have handled them fine...it wouldn't have caused any added problems..... That is BS (and the same holds true for Frazier, Ali, etc).

My point being Frazier looked strong against 208 pound (and less) guys too a large degree (the majority of people he fought weighed less then 208)........there is a hell of a big difference then facing guys 230 +

[dempseyfire]

Vs Moorer (a style completely different then Frazier for starters) and Holyfield lost a razor close Maj Dec...and then TKO'd him in a rematch knocking him down 5 times!

Vs Cooper Holyfiel won every round but one...and in the round Cooper hurt him...by the end Holy had Cooper basically out on his feet as well.

Vs Dokes.....Holyfield was new to the HW division (only his 3rd HW fight) and took on the 37-1-2 Dokes who was rated #1 by one of the major bodies and in the top-8 of all three - It was a great fight without question....but Holyfield was clearly winning on all cards when he TKO'd Dokes in the 10th -

Vs D. Qawi - Again, you are trying to take Holyfield to task for beating the best CW at that time in the world in only his 11th fight!!...In a 15round war to boot??....To then only mature and a year later KO Qawi easliy in the 4th.

And this BS about Frazier being a natural HW....give me break in the since the Holyfield isn't....or hasn't been in with them (and done damn well).

Frazier fought men who were 215 pounds and less. The BIGGEST man Frazier ever beat was a 221 pound Joe Bugner!! - Please... Holyfield would fare just fine with a Joe Frazier who is a "natural HW" as you claim.

And if Frazier didn't want to take a backwards step....Holyfields hand speed would eat him alive.

Come on - Joe was beating up Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Terry Daniels, Jerry Quarry.....these guys didn't even weight 200 pounds!

I love Frazier but the notion that he could handle "true HW's" and Evander couldn't is ridiculous. The size of Bowe and Lennox would have given Frazier all sorts of problems he couldn't imagine. Nor do you know for certain how he would have done.

We know for certain the two biggest men he fought...Ali and Foreman whipped his ass more often then not! (outside of fat Buster Mathis who Joe Ko'd in 4).


And the notion that Holyfield's only big assets were his heart and conditioning is selling him way short. He had incredibly fast hands....especially in close....threw great combinations and had one of the best "compact" left hooks in the biz (especially ending a 3 punch combo).....He could box as well as bang (though clearly prefered to bang).....he was physically very strong (he'd physically move Frazier in the ring if the two tied up....just like he moved Tyson)...he could take a hell of a shot...and in his prime I don't see Frazier stopping him (for Joe to win it would have to be by dec).

But I can clearly see Holy stopping Frazier or beating him to the punch all night and winning a war of wills over the full 12 or 15 rounds.

This WEIGHT notion is the argument used by all 'Butterbean would lick Marciano' types - but the true fans know great fighters are great in ANY era, regardless of a few pounds. Frazier is a GREAT heavyweight. To say he is too small to compete in Holyfield's era is laughable and, frankly, insulting. Put the boot on the other foot: how would all these BIG heavies fare in the 1970s?
Bottom line is: the peak Frazier who walked down Ali in 1971 was better than the peak Holyfield who stopped Tyson in 1996.

Couple points - I never suggested Frazier couldn't compete with today's HW's at all - I was replying to the fact that in Frazier Holyfield would be facing a "real HW, who wouldn't take a step backward" (as another poster had stated)....

When the reality is Holyfield has faced much bigger men then Frazier ...and also much bigger men then Frazier ever had to face.

Furthermore for people to suggest that the size of talented fighters today wouldn't have effected fighters from the 70's is utterly wrong. The size of Bowe, Lennox and such would have caused Frazier all sorts of problems. It most certainly would of -

Again, I am saying of talented big men of today (not the butterbeans Vs Marciano's...that is just silly and below this forum).

But the reality is Frazier was beating guys who mainly weighed less then 205.....a 30 - 40 pounds step up is a hell of a lot .... Those shots that KO or impact a talented 190-200 pound guy...don't usually have the same effect on a just as talented 230 + pound guy -

Again, we are talking talented 230-250 pound guys (not bums).

Furthermore in 1996 Holyfield wasn't at his peak at all - He was seveal years past it - By then he was closing in on 35 years old -

But not to keep on this new "size of fighters doesn't matter" subject.

That would be like saying if 30 years from now...if top HW's are pushing a solid 265-280 range.....That Holyfield would have handled them fine...it wouldn't have caused any added problems..... That is BS (and the same holds true for Frazier, Ali, etc).

My point being Frazier looked strong against 208 pound (and less) guys too a large degree (the majority of people he fought weighed less then 208)........there is a hell of a big difference then facing guys 230 +

Let me retort:

Your discussion of weight brings me right back to the fundamental factor of conditioning. Holyfield opponents over 230 lbs such as Bowe, Mercer, Foreman, Holmes, Douglas etc. were NOT in top condition when Evander beat them (nor was the 223 lb Moorer in the rematch) They were heavier than Frazier's opponents but not BIGGER. Bowe was the same size as Bugner, Chuvalo as big as Mercer, Bonavena as big as Tyson, Mathis as big as Douglas. Quarry bigger than Moorer etc. But these guys were in the condition to fight 12 HARD rounds. Holyfield had skills but his main attribute in being successful was his superior stamina and work-rate. In the 1960s-70s, he loses that. You keep mentioning how Holyfield's "hand speed" busts Frazier up. What about Jimmy Ellis or Jerry Quarry-especially Quarry, could punch and had hands as quick or quicker than Holyfield, and Frazier ate them up.

You also bring up the Bonavena SD win and how Holyfield's win over Qawi was in his 11th fight, but Frazier fought Bonavena, a harder puncher and more dangerous than a blown up light HW, in his 12th fight! The 'best cruiser in the world'? That's laughable, the cruiserweights had just been invented and Qawi was on top simply b/c he was a name light HW fighter who moved up to a division full of nobodies.

Again, please name me a HW in his prime who was in top condition who Holyfield beat? There is none, although Frazier has several-Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis, Muhammad Ali ( slightly past his very best but in great condition), Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo etc.

[meade95]

This WEIGHT notion is the argument used by all 'Butterbean would lick Marciano' types - but the true fans know great fighters are great in ANY era, regardless of a few pounds. Frazier is a GREAT heavyweight. To say he is too small to compete in Holyfield's era is laughable and, frankly, insulting. Put the boot on the other foot: how would all these BIG heavies fare in the 1970s?
Bottom line is: the peak Frazier who walked down Ali in 1971 was better than the peak Holyfield who stopped Tyson in 1996.

Couple points - I never suggested Frazier couldn't compete with today's HW's at all - I was replying to the fact that in Frazier Holyfield would be facing a "real HW, who wouldn't take a step backward" (as another poster had stated)....

When the reality is Holyfield has faced much bigger men then Frazier ...and also much bigger men then Frazier ever had to face.

Furthermore for people to suggest that the size of talented fighters today wouldn't have effected fighters from the 70's is utterly wrong. The size of Bowe, Lennox and such would have caused Frazier all sorts of problems. It most certainly would of -

Again, I am saying of talented big men of today (not the butterbeans Vs Marciano's...that is just silly and below this forum).

But the reality is Frazier was beating guys who mainly weighed less then 205.....a 30 - 40 pounds step up is a hell of a lot .... Those shots that KO or impact a talented 190-200 pound guy...don't usually have the same effect on a just as talented 230 + pound guy -

Again, we are talking talented 230-250 pound guys (not bums).

Furthermore in 1996 Holyfield wasn't at his peak at all - He was seveal years past it - By then he was closing in on 35 years old -

But not to keep on this new "size of fighters doesn't matter" subject.

That would be like saying if 30 years from now...if top HW's are pushing a solid 265-280 range.....That Holyfield would have handled them fine...it wouldn't have caused any added problems..... That is BS (and the same holds true for Frazier, Ali, etc).

My point being Frazier looked strong against 208 pound (and less) guys too a large degree (the majority of people he fought weighed less then 208)........there is a hell of a big difference then facing guys 230 +

Let me retort:

Your discussion of weight brings me right back to the fundamental factor of conditioning. Holyfield opponents over 230 lbs such as Bowe, Mercer, Foreman, Holmes, Douglas etc. were NOT in top condition when Evander beat them (nor was the 223 lb Moorer in the rematch) They were heavier than Frazier's opponents but not BIGGER. Bowe was the same size as Bugner, Chuvalo as big as Mercer, Bonavena as big as Tyson, Mathis as big as Douglas. Quarry bigger than Moorer etc. But these guys were in the condition to fight 12 HARD rounds. Holyfield had skills but his main attribute in being successful was his superior stamina and work-rate. In the 1960s-70s, he loses that. You keep mentioning how Holyfield's "hand speed" busts Frazier up. What about Jimmy Ellis or Jerry Quarry-especially Quarry, could punch and had hands as quick or quicker than Holyfield, and Frazier ate them up.

You also bring up the Bonavena SD win and how Holyfield's win over Qawi was in his 11th fight, but Frazier fought Bonavena, a harder puncher and more dangerous than a blown up light HW, in his 12th fight! The 'best cruiser in the world'? That's laughable, the cruiserweights had just been invented and Qawi was on top simply b/c he was a name light HW fighter who moved up to a division full of nobodies.

Again, please name me a HW in his prime who was in top condition who Holyfield beat? There is none, although Frazier has several-Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis, Muhammad Ali ( slightly past his very best but in great condition), Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo etc.

We are just going to go back and forth all day and night on this one - I'll just agree to disagree with you - I think Frazier style was made to order for Holyfield -

I know Frazier mainly feasted on guys who were 208 and less (and with that it is surely easier to score KO's and look powerful fighting guys your same size or smaller...then as compared to what Holy had to face at HW....Holy was a big KO guy when he was fighting people his own weight or less too).

I believe Holyfields hand speed, combination punching, superior physical strength, very solid chin, counter punching style along with his heart would have been enough to see him through a war with Frazier.

As for those you listed above in regard to fighting Frazier and him beating them in their primes and in top condition. Please.

Joe Bugner was a ring worn 43-5-1 at the time...and was coming off a clear loss to Ali - Frazier barely beat him with a 6-4 dec -

Oscar Natalio Bonavena was 204 pounds - 38-4-0 (granted this was only Fraziers 12th fight)...and Frazier won a close spit Dec - Bonavena never went on to beat any top HW - Outside of a MD over George Chuvalo ...who Bonavena beat more then a year before Frazier did -

George Chuvalo - Was a very ring worn 47-13-2 by the time Frazier faced him...he had lost to the limited Bonavena over a year earlier...and would never challenge for a major title again (unless you count the Canadian HW title). And I'm a Chuvalo fan to boot - But Frazier clearly did not face a prime Chuvalo -

Best regards -

[thunderfromdownunder]

nice too see everybody getting into this one.
i thought it would make a good fantasy match up. i personnaly cant give anyone a clear advantage here. but people have posted good cases for both fighters to win, so it keeps me thinking

[The Great John L]

…Joe Bugner was a ring worn 43-5-1 at the time...and was coming off a clear loss to Ali - Frazier barely beat him with a 6-4 dec -

Oscar Natalio Bonavena was 204 pounds - 38-4-0 (granted this was only Fraziers 12th fight)...and Frazier won a close spit Dec - Bonavena never went on to beat any top HW - Outside of a MD over George Chuvalo ...who Bonavena beat more then a year before Frazier did -

George Chuvalo - Was a very ring worn 47-13-2 by the time Frazier faced him...he had lost to the limited Bonavena over a year earlier...and would never challenge for a major title again (unless you count the Canadian HW title). And I'm a Chuvalo fan to boot - But Frazier clearly did not face a prime Chuvalo -

Best regards -

I shouldn’t get back into this thread, but I can’t just let these comments.

Bugner ring worn when he fought Frazier? He was 23. Perhaps you are new to boxing and don’t understand that fighters used to actually fight more than once or twice a year and often times had to have a LOT of fights against good competition in order to get any recognition. There were a lot more fighters then and a lot more competition, so it was pretty much impossible to have a career like what’s typical for HWs now. 25-0, 30 years old and no fights against world class competition would get you no recognition and no major fights in the 70’s.

And you might want to consider that many have a different perspective on Bugner at the time of his Frazier fight, that I think is more commonly accepted. That Bugner was nearing his best at the time and fought a very competitive fight against arguably the best HW in history in his previous fight. Yes, it was a tough fight for Frazier, but I think Bugner at that time in his career would have been pretty tough for just about any HW in history.

As for Bonavena, it’s true that he didn’t have wins over any great HWs, but he certainly beat quite a few world class HWs before he fought Frazier, just maybe not names that you are familiar with. And you might want to consider that a better indication of his skills and toughness would be his fight against the aforementioned Ali. Ringo gave a great account of himself in this fight, even though he lost.

I agree about Chuvalo being past it when he fought Frazier, but he was still a world class HW.

You really don’t think much of the HWs from the 60’s- 70’s do you?

[Professor X]

[quote="meade95"][quote="dempseyfire"][quote="meade95"][quote="Les Darcy"]I think Frazier stops him in a war. Holyfield would be made to fight on the inside with Frazier and Joe would outwork him. Holyfield was never the hardest fighter to hit, although he had an iron chin and a ton of heart, but I feel Fraziers body work gives him the edge. Holyfield would do well over the first 5-7 rounds, but Frazier would slowly take over and stop him late in the fight, it would be one hell of a fight though.[/quote]

A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.[/quote]

Ever see Holyfield-Cooper? Holyfield-Moorer?

How is Holyfield, a guy who had to lift weights and drink shakes to get above 200, stronger than Frazier? How does he have the power to stop Joe? when Joe took the best of Bonavena, Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Bugner, and Ali?

Frazier was so superior to the Tyson Evander fought there is really no comparison. Holyfield got worn out by the pressure of Qawi . . .how would he deal with a consistently bobbing and weaving Frazier, who loved to work the body (and as Bowe showed and Tyson showed in that round 5 when he finally began to go downstairs, Evander has an iron head but does have a weakness to a body attack-Frazier murdered the body) Evander's tendency to trade punches when he was looking for rests would prove fatal fighting Frazier, who without a doubt had the bigger punch and was just as durable.[/quote]


Holyfield was clearly physically stronger the both Cooper and Moorer (without question)...and Vs Cooper Holyfield won every round but 1 (my God, the notion that that isn't good enough is silly)....Vs Moorer he lost a close majority dec because he was outboxed (and because J. Roth didn't correctly score the 2nd round a 10-8 for Holy's clean kd on Moorer)

Frazier wasn't that type of figher...a lefty who didn't want to slug and who was looking to outbox you over 12 rounds -

You mention Qawi....(um, Holyfield beat him twice!...and KO'd him the second time in 4 rounds)...and beat him the first time in only his 11th pro fight...WELL BEFORE HOLYFIELD's prime......and you are trying to suggest because he beat Qawi (the champion!) in only his 11th pro fight...in a 15 round war......that, that isn't good enough?

Odd logic - Again the two met a year later and a maturing Holy Ko'd him in an easy 4 rounds -

Holyfield was stronger then Frazier physically. You can ask any of the boxing guys in the biz who have worked with Holy and Frazier....They may not say Holy would win this contest....but to a man they would say Holyfield was physically stronger. There isn't any question here. (and I'm not talking punching power...I'm talking physical strength which plays a big role in a rough and tumble, in-close type fight...which these two would certainly have).


The reality is styles make fights (we all know this)...and a fighter who likes to come right at you...is made to order for Holyfield.....always was, always will be.

Holyfields faster hands and combination punching would eat up Frazier in exchanges..[/quote]

I agree there, meade95. So many people bring up Qawi when analyzing Holyfield. Holyfield knocked Qawi out of the ring in their rematch (Holy's 15th pro fight?).

Somebody called Holyfield a head-hunter. Not true at all. If a fighter got confident against him, Holyfield would almost always go to the body to bring his opponent back in line. Holyfield was very good at ripping body shots. Holyfield-Ruiz III featured some truly viscious bodywork from Evander.

Holyfield-Dokes set a SHOWTIME punch output record among heavyweights.

Holyfield was a good late rounds boxer (who dislocated his shoulder early in Moorer-Holyfield I, btw. But he didn't quit, like, say, Klitschko did against Byrd under a similar injury).

A left-hooker could not beat prime Holyfield. Holyfield, in his prime, was too fast, smooth, and heavy with the combos and counters for an aggresive guy like Frazier to last the distance (see Holyfield-Qawi II).

Holyfield KO 11 Frazier

Frazier could break down a LOT of heavyweights, but a strong chinned, brave, classy boxer-puncher like Holyfield wouldn't be one of them.

[Ambling Alp]

Wow. We have some difference of opinion here. The mistake that I see from some people on both side of the issue is that they take one or 2 fights from each guy and thinks that that settles the issue. Sure, on Frazier's best night he would beat holyfield at his worst and vice versia.
Yes Ali was better than anyone Holyfield beat, but Bowe and Tyson were better than anyone else that Frazier beat.
What needs to be done is to take a hard look at their career and decide what the most likely outcome would be.

Could Holyfield hurt Frazier? Possibly, but unlikely that he could take him out. Holyfield could punch, but wasn't a brutal puncher. there is an outside chance that Holyfield could win by a late round TKO by an accumilation of punches or Frazier's face being busted up.
Frazier was a good defensive fighter for a pressure fighter, but Holyfield was good at something people don't talk about enough: punching accuracy. He would be able to score and pile up some rounds.
Frazier meanwhile would be able to hit Holyfield often as well. If Frazier lands the lefthook right on the button, it's possible that he could ko Holyfield. However, it would have to be perfect or Holyfield would survive.
Most like that both men would go at it tooth and nail. This would be a war.

Frazier was often a slow starter and Holyfield would probably get off to an early lead. However when the fighter would be close, it would be to Frazier advantage. Holyfield was a good inside fighter, but he wasn't as good inside as Frazier.
The most likely result is that Frazier gradually takes command and wins a tough decison.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

too say chuvalo was past his best when he fought frazier is a joke IMO


chuvalo was 29 years old and just 1 year earlier had lost to ali in his title fight. im guessing none of u are going to say ali beat a past his prime chuvalo are u? chuvalo was at his best in the mid 1960s and he fought frazier right around the peak of his career. even after the loss to frazier, chuvalo went on to knock out jerry quarry 2 years later.

[walshb]

A peak Frazier had a rock solid chin and Holy don't punch hard enough to KO Frazier. Joe's constant pressure will see Holy having to fight harder and faster than ever before and Holy's tendancy to trade will see Joe land at will. So I think it's a case of who is the busier and that is Frazier...points decision or late TKO.....

[meade95]

too say chuvalo was past his best when he fought frazier is a joke IMO


chuvalo was 29 years old and just 1 year earlier had lost to ali in his title fight. im guessing none of u are going to say ali beat a past his prime chuvalo are u? chuvalo was at his best in the mid 1960s and he fought frazier right around the peak of his career. even after the loss to frazier, chuvalo went on to knock out jerry quarry 2 years later.

Well The Chuvalo that Ali beat had LOST 2 of his last 3 fights coming in to fight Ali (so that tells me he wasn't that "on" his game) - Considering he lost to a decent Ernie Terrell and a Crusier Wt (191 pound) Eduardo Corletti who was 11-2-5 at the time -

Yet somehow Chuvalo used those two losses to propel himself into a title fight Vs Ali -

Chuvalo never beat one top echelon HW outside of Quarry and even then he was losing on the cards...and Quarry seemingly mis judged the count and stayed on his knee...and got right up when the Ref said 10 (not 9)...though he was probably hurt (granted).

I guess one could say that Chuvalo maybe was "old" Vs Frazier as he was only just about to turn 30.....but the reality is he had lost 13 times prior to that fight...and had really never beaten anyone all that good in terms of top echelon type guys.....even losing the Canadian HW title several times -

Chuvalo was a tough dude and a fighters type fighter....but he clearly had scene better days (IMO) and wasn't in the class of Frazier to boot -

[BoxBuzz]

Could this be considered the "Cruiserweight Championship of All Time?"

[Robinson]

I dont know if this match would entirely be like the first Holy-Qawi match. Qawi had a swarming style similar to Frazier but instead of being a left hooking machine, Qawi was very reliant on an over hand right.

Cooper gave a prim Holyfield trouble and he had a very K-mart version of Fraziers style especially at that stage of Bert's career.

I really think the constant aggression and relentless activity of Frazier gets to Holyfield and slows him down, especially in the mid to late rounds where Fraziers body attacks and effectiveness at getting holy on the ropes takes there toll.

However Holyfield would no doubt gain a somewhat early lead up until the 5th round with his punch rate and movement. Though should he be drawn into a slugfest Frazier wins, but if Holyfield keeps his punch stats up at around the 80-100 mark like he did Vs Qawi 1 then he wins the decision on sheer volume.

Very close to call. I know one thing for sure I would LOVE to watch this fight.

Kym

[I Feel Fine]

Frazier was only under 200 pounds around four times in his career, he was not a Cruiserweight in any era.

If they foughg ten times I would favor Frazier to win seven out of ten.

[Robinson]

Professor X,

Pretty good breakdown mate.

Kym

[p4p1]

i think it is a toss up but im going towards frazier after a hell of a war

[Syntax Error]

This is an extremely difficult one to call for me.

Both men had indomitable wills to win & both men loved to brawl.

However, JF was more suited to brawls & 'phone booth' warfare than the taller, ganglier Holyfied.

Both men were tough as hell, so it would be difficult to predict a KO.

I have a feeling that Frazier would probably TKO (not knock him out) Holyfield late on, but I can't say with any conviction, as I could also see a points win for Holyfield.

[silkov]

I dont remember Frazier ever headbutting someone!....
As for this match up, Evander was a very good fighter but Frazier was better, simple as that... look at how Evander struggled with Holmes and Foreman when both were past 40 and he was in his prime... could Evander ever have beaten Ali like Frazier did?... no way!.... the truth is that the heavyweights of the 70s were quite a few levels above those of the 90s and had Evander been around in the 70s its doubtful that he would ever have been more than a good contender, but never champ...

[Ezzard]

I dont remember Frazier ever headbutting someone!....
As for this match up, Evander was a very good fighter but Frazier was better, simple as that... look at how Evander struggled with Holmes and Foreman when both were past 40 and he was in his prime... could Evander ever have beaten Ali like Frazier did?... no way!.... the truth is that the heavyweights of the 70s were quite a few levels above those of the 90s and had Evander been around in the 70s its doubtful that he would ever have been more than a good contender, but never champ...

Ouch!

C'mon, Holyfield was better than that. He did struggle with some opponents but he was a fighter who has a chance with anyone.

[silkov]

I dont remember Frazier ever headbutting someone!....
As for this match up, Evander was a very good fighter but Frazier was better, simple as that... look at how Evander struggled with Holmes and Foreman when both were past 40 and he was in his prime... could Evander ever have beaten Ali like Frazier did?... no way!.... the truth is that the heavyweights of the 70s were quite a few levels above those of the 90s and had Evander been around in the 70s its doubtful that he would ever have been more than a good contender, but never champ...

Ouch!

C'mon, Holyfield was better than that. He did struggle with some opponents but he was a fighter who has a chance with anyone.

But he would have needed to beat either Frazier, Foreman, Holmes or Ali to be champion in the 70s and I dont think he would have done it... I'm not saying he wasnt good, but he just wasnt as good as those guys. If Holmes and Foreman could trouble Evander when thye were in their 40s imagine what they would have did to him in their primes!...

[dempseyfire]

I dont remember Frazier ever headbutting someone!....
As for this match up, Evander was a very good fighter but Frazier was better, simple as that... look at how Evander struggled with Holmes and Foreman when both were past 40 and he was in his prime... could Evander ever have beaten Ali like Frazier did?... no way!.... the truth is that the heavyweights of the 70s were quite a few levels above those of the 90s and had Evander been around in the 70s its doubtful that he would ever have been more than a good contender, but never champ...

Ouch!

C'mon, Holyfield was better than that. He did struggle with some opponents but he was a fighter who has a chance with anyone.

But he would have needed to beat either Frazier, Foreman, Holmes or Ali to be champion in the 70s and I dont think he would have done it... I'm not saying he wasnt good, but he just wasnt as good as those guys. If Holmes and Foreman could trouble Evander when thye were in their 40s imagine what they would have did to him in their primes!...

I agree he wouldn't have been champ but definitely a contender. Imagine some of the fights that could've been made. Lyle-Holyfield, Quarry-Holyfield . . .those are GREAT fights!!