Just rewatched Lewis- Mercer.

[RazorKO]

What an absolutey disgusting decision. I dont see why people view this as a close fight as in my eyes it sure wasnt, I had Lewis winning 3 rounds at most and that is only due to Mercer tiring and letting Lewis get the better of him in the inside. Everytime Lewis tried to box with his jab, Mercer outjabbed him, everytime Lewis tried fight up close, Mercer roughed him up. Lewis was getting beat in the jabbing department and the brawling department and Im convinced Mercer won 7 of those 10 rounds.

Lewis went life and death with Mercer where the same Mercer lost every single round to a past it Larry Holmes. I say this because Ive noticed a lot of people favour Lewis over Holmes which I think its insult to include Lewis in the same sentance as Holmes.

One thing I say about Lewis though is that in this fight he did show he can take a relitavely good punch.

[Autobarn]

What an absolutey disgusting decision. I dont see why people view this as a close fight as in my eyes it sure wasnt, I had Lewis winning 3 rounds at most and that is only due to Mercer tiring and letting Lewis get the better of him in the inside. Everytime Lewis tried to box with his jab, Mercer outjabbed him, everytime Lewis tried fight up close, Mercer roughed him up. Lewis was getting beat in the jabbing department and the brawling department and Im convinced Mercer won 7 of those 10 rounds.

Lewis went life and death with Mercer where the same Mercer lost every single round to a past it Larry Holmes. I say this because Ive noticed a lot of people favour Lewis over Holmes which I think its insult to include Lewis in the same sentance as Holmes.

One thing I say about Lewis though is that in this fight he did show he can take a relitavely good punch.

mercer admitted to lewis after the fight that 'you're a hard headed mutherfecker and won the fight'

i had lewis beating mercer, as most ppl do. sounds a bit biased (very, in fact) to have mercer dominating the fight. btw, it wasn't the same mercer who fought lewis and holmes. the mercer who fought holmes abandoned his boxing, in fact he admitted 'i need to learn how to box'. he did learn to box, gave holyfield absolute hell until getting dropped by a left hook, and then gave lewis similar problems. i had mercer losing to holy and lewis.

you seriously think the old holmes would've lasted with the lewis who fought mercer? i pity you and your reasoning

holmes always struggled with big men. Carl Williams just about outjabbed him. He would've had mad trouble with Cooney if Cooney had some confidence and more punches than a left hook. Holmes, to hit Cooney, had to stand right in front of him, where he ate up some pretty big shots before grinding cooney down to his credit. it would be tough for Holmes standing in Lewis' line of fire. not like larry would just be able to jab and move. he'd move himself out of range

[dempseyfire]

Holmes-Lewis is a matchup so in favor of Larry it's not even funny. MUCH better jab, conditioning, better inside fighter, smarter, faster hands, sharper. Holmes would have to stand in front of Lewis to hit him? Where do you pick up that from? Holmes's reach was nearly as big as Lewis-Mercer was shorter and had much shorter arms than Holmes and he was outjabbing Lewis all night, as was Holyfield when he remembered to throw the jab. Lewis would get so tired chasing after a fast moving Holmes and eating left hands and right hand counters he'd get TKO'd by the 9th.

[Autobarn]

well, homes had to stand right in front of cooney, who had no jab. and he had to chase carl 'truth hurts' williams en route to getting a lucky decision -thats where i'm getting it from matey! continue with your fantasy

[RazorKO]

What an absolutey disgusting decision. I dont see why people view this as a close fight as in my eyes it sure wasnt, I had Lewis winning 3 rounds at most and that is only due to Mercer tiring and letting Lewis get the better of him in the inside. Everytime Lewis tried to box with his jab, Mercer outjabbed him, everytime Lewis tried fight up close, Mercer roughed him up. Lewis was getting beat in the jabbing department and the brawling department and Im convinced Mercer won 7 of those 10 rounds.

Lewis went life and death with Mercer where the same Mercer lost every single round to a past it Larry Holmes. I say this because Ive noticed a lot of people favour Lewis over Holmes which I think its insult to include Lewis in the same sentance as Holmes.

One thing I say about Lewis though is that in this fight he did show he can take a relitavely good punch.

mercer admitted to lewis after the fight that 'you're a hard headed mutherfecker and won the fight'

i had lewis beating mercer, as most ppl do. sounds a bit biased (very, in fact) to have mercer dominating the fight. btw, it wasn't the same mercer who fought lewis and holmes. the mercer who fought holmes abandoned his boxing, in fact he admitted 'i need to learn how to box'. he did learn to box, gave holyfield absolute hell until getting dropped by a left hook, and then gave lewis similar problems. i had mercer losing to holy and lewis.

you seriously think the old holmes would've lasted with the lewis who fought mercer? i pity you and your reasoning

holmes always struggled with big men. Carl Williams just about outjabbed him. He would've had mad trouble with Cooney if Cooney had some confidence and more punches than a left hook. Holmes, to hit Cooney, had to stand right in front of him, where he ate up some pretty big shots before grinding cooney down to his credit. it would be tough for Holmes standing in Lewis' line of fire. not like larry would just be able to jab and move. he'd move himself out of range

I didnt say Lewis would definetly beat old Holmes, but old Holmes would certainly give Lewis one hell of a struggle. Prime Holmes however kncoks out Lewis in 6 one sided rounds.
Regrading the Cooney fight, I had Holmes comfortably beating Cooney, Gerry did get in a few hard left hooks as you said but Holmes was never stunned apart from at the end of the 4th where he staggered a bit when he was hit to the body.
About the Carl Williams fight, Holmes was getting past it by then but Williams did fight a good fight and matched Holmes jab for jab. Although Holmes in this fight did show good body punching and in one of the rounds had Williams going when he hit him with that right to the body.

[Ambling Alp]

I've always wondered why people don't talk about Mercer-Lewis more often. I had Mercer winning 6 rounds to 4; when I originally saw it I had a draw. Mercer fought one of his best fights. Imagine if Mercer would have gotten the decison? Mercer would be thought of more highly now and it really would have hurt Lewis' reputation. He may not even have gotten another title shot.

[Autobarn]

What an absolutey disgusting decision. I dont see why people view this as a close fight as in my eyes it sure wasnt, I had Lewis winning 3 rounds at most and that is only due to Mercer tiring and letting Lewis get the better of him in the inside. Everytime Lewis tried to box with his jab, Mercer outjabbed him, everytime Lewis tried fight up close, Mercer roughed him up. Lewis was getting beat in the jabbing department and the brawling department and Im convinced Mercer won 7 of those 10 rounds.

Lewis went life and death with Mercer where the same Mercer lost every single round to a past it Larry Holmes. I say this because Ive noticed a lot of people favour Lewis over Holmes which I think its insult to include Lewis in the same sentance as Holmes.

One thing I say about Lewis though is that in this fight he did show he can take a relitavely good punch.

mercer admitted to lewis after the fight that 'you're a hard headed mutherfecker and won the fight'

i had lewis beating mercer, as most ppl do. sounds a bit biased (very, in fact) to have mercer dominating the fight. btw, it wasn't the same mercer who fought lewis and holmes. the mercer who fought holmes abandoned his boxing, in fact he admitted 'i need to learn how to box'. he did learn to box, gave holyfield absolute hell until getting dropped by a left hook, and then gave lewis similar problems. i had mercer losing to holy and lewis.

you seriously think the old holmes would've lasted with the lewis who fought mercer? i pity you and your reasoning

holmes always struggled with big men. Carl Williams just about outjabbed him. He would've had mad trouble with Cooney if Cooney had some confidence and more punches than a left hook. Holmes, to hit Cooney, had to stand right in front of him, where he ate up some pretty big shots before grinding cooney down to his credit. it would be tough for Holmes standing in Lewis' line of fire. not like larry would just be able to jab and move. he'd move himself out of range

I didnt say Lewis would definetly beat old Holmes, but old Holmes would certainly give Lewis one hell of a struggle. Prime Holmes however kncoks out Lewis in 6 one sided rounds.
Regrading the Cooney fight, I had Holmes comfortably beating Cooney, Gerry did get in a few hard left hooks as you said but Holmes was never stunned apart from at the end of the 4th where he staggered a bit when he was hit to the body.
About the Carl Williams fight, Holmes was getting past it by then but Williams did fight a good fight and matched Holmes jab for jab. Although Holmes in this fight did show good body punching and in one of the rounds had Williams going when he hit him with that right to the body.

Holmes winning in 6 one-sided rounds is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever heard. Holmes was nearly Ko'd several times in his career, by guys who were just too raw to follow up effectively. Holmes definitely struggled against bigger men, it's a myth that he could just jab and move his way to victory. like i say, holmes has to go flat footed to get in range, despite the long reach. he didn't do the 'in & out' well against ppl who stood tall above him. and lewis has a vastly superior repertoire to cooney and was far stronger inside than anyone holmes encountered. i'm not picking a winner, but this would give holmes all the trouble he would need

Riddick Bowe would be easier for Holmes. Despite his size, Bowe was very flat footed, didn't have as much of a jab as ppl like to imagine, could be outjabbed & relied on ppl to lean inside with him (i.e. Holyfield)

it's a preposterous comparison that because old holmes beat mercer easily, and because lewis struggled to beat mercer, that old holmes may beat lewis and peak holmes dominates him.

[Autobarn]

I've always wondered why people don't talk about Mercer-Lewis more often. I had Mercer winning 6 rounds to 4; when I originally saw it I had a draw. Mercer fought one of his best fights. Imagine if Mercer would have gotten the decison? Mercer would be thought of more highly now and it really would have hurt Lewis' reputation. He may not even have gotten another title shot.

very few ppl have a problem with the decision. lewis looked the better man to me. what about larry holmes' fights with Spoon and Williams? looking at those fights, he should never have bitched about losing the Spinks fights because what goes around comes around.

while we're at it, some feel that Mr Mercer was lucky to beat Witherspoon

[The Great John L]

I've always wondered why people don't talk about Mercer-Lewis more often. I had Mercer winning 6 rounds to 4; when I originally saw it I had a draw. Mercer fought one of his best fights. Imagine if Mercer would have gotten the decison? Mercer would be thought of more highly now and it really would have hurt Lewis' reputation. He may not even have gotten another title shot.

Yeah, and think about how boxing history would have changed if Ali had lost the decision in the Doug Jones fight. Or Frazier had lost the first Bonavena fight. Would there ever have been an Ali-Frazier superfight? How about if Marciano had lost to LaStarza?

That’s one of the things that’s really interesting about these passionate discussions about all time rankings. If a judge or two had simply scored one close round differently, our all time rankings could look drastically different.

[dr_devious]

Razor, where does your virulent anti-Lennox bias come from, i feel it clouds your judgements? Lewis fought a crap fight against Mercer but still edged the decision. Lewis would have knocked old man Holmes out in 1996, a match between peak Holmes and Lewis would have been very close and almost certainly gone the distance.

[thunderfromdownunder]

yeah, whenever razor mentions lewis you know he's gonna be talking shit and youre better off not even reading it.
maybe lewis killed his kitten or something?

[pound per pound]

I've always wondered why people don't talk about Mercer-Lewis more often. I had Mercer winning 6 rounds to 4; when I originally saw it I had a draw. Mercer fought one of his best fights. Imagine if Mercer would have gotten the decison? Mercer would be thought of more highly now and it really would have hurt Lewis' reputation. He may not even have gotten another title shot.

I had it 6-4 for Lewis, but 5-5 is an fine score as well.

[dempseyfire]

Holmes having a tough fight past his prime vs Williams doesn't really say anything about facing Lewis. Lennox got knocked out by an amatuerish jabber late in his career in Rahman, who was not near the class of Holmes. Williams also employed a lot more lateral movement and had better stamina than Lewis. Holmes's jab reached Cooney and Bonecrusher Smith, both bigger guys, pretty damn easy. Once you took Lewis's jab away with your own jab, he became very vulnerable.

That's what happened in the Mercer fight, but only Mercer's own exhaustion allowed Lews back in the fight in rounds 7 and 8. Despite that, I had Mercer winning rounds 9 and 10 (which I believe were fairly clear rounds to score). I also had Mercer winning rounds 1,3,5, and 6 with Lennox winning rounds 2,4, 7 and 8 leading to a 6-4 win for Ray. Round 3 was tough to score so I can see a draw. Regardless, Holmes presents such a tougher task than Mercer it's not even funny. If Mercer and his jab could win a close fight with Lewis, Holmes with his skill-set, speed, movement, and stamina beats Lewis fairly easily

[The Great John L]

Holmes having a tough fight past his prime vs Williams doesn't really say anything about facing Lewis. Lennox got knocked out by an amatuerish jabber late in his career in Rahman, who was not near the class of Holmes. Williams also employed a lot more lateral movement and had better stamina than Lewis. Holmes's jab reached Cooney and Bonecrusher Smith, both bigger guys, pretty damn easy. Once you took Lewis's jab away with your own jab, he became very vulnerable.

That's what happened in the Mercer fight, but only Mercer's own exhaustion allowed Lews back in the fight in rounds 7 and 8. Despite that, I had Mercer winning rounds 9 and 10 (which I believe were fairly clear rounds to score). I also had Mercer winning rounds 1,3,5, and 6 with Lennox winning rounds 2,4, 7 and 8 leading to a 6-4 win for Ray. Round 3 was tough to score so I can see a draw. Regardless, Holmes presents such a tougher task than Mercer it's not even funny. If Mercer and his jab could win a close fight with Lewis, Holmes with his skill-set, speed, movement, and stamina beats Lewis fairly easily

I think a prime Holmes would have beaten Lewis as well, but don’t see any analogy between Mercer-Lewis and a hypothetical Lewis-Holmes. With this logic you could also say that if a past his prime Shavers (not to mention Snipes) could nearly KO Holmes then certainly a quicker more gifted puncher like Lewis would have been able to destroy him. See, that doesn’t make any sense does it?

However, your comment about Holmes’ jab being able to reach LL and unsettling him makes a great deal of sense. I think the Mercer fight was just a bad night for LL. Kind of like Ali against Doug Jones. But on the plus side LL showed a good heart and a pretty good chin against Mercer. Lesser fighters might have folded up against Mercer, in a tough fight like that. Of course, I still think Holmes could have outpointed him. It probably would have been a very difficult fight for Holmes, but I think he could have beaten Lewis.

[Ambling Alp]

Well, several fights have been brought up as being bad decisions. I think some were and some weren't.

As already mentioned, I feel that Mercer beat Lewis. It was a close fight, and certainly wasn't a "robbery" At the time, many people didn't think Lewis won. Somehow this fight seems to have been forgotten by many people.

Holmes -Witherspoon was also close, but I feel that Holmes did enough to win.

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Holmes-Carl Williams. This was a highway robbery. Williams won at least 10 of the 15 rounds, yet all the judges had Holmes winning easily. I have never seen Witherspoon-Mercer.

[Autobarn]

Well, several fights have been brought up as being bad decisions. I think some were and some weren't.

As already mentioned, I feel that Mercer beat Lewis. It was a close fight, and certainly wasn't a "robbery" At the time, many people didn't think Lewis won. Somehow this fight seems to have been forgotten by many people.

Holmes -Witherspoon was also close, but I feel that Holmes did enough to win.

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Holmes-Carl Williams. This was a highway robbery. Williams won at least 10 of the 15 rounds, yet all the judges had Holmes winning easily. I have never seen Witherspoon-Mercer.

you think mercer beat lewis, but that holmes did enough to beat spoon? mein gott. i agree with you on Williams-Holmes - Holmes was following him around, pretty clueless looking. mercer-spoon was very tight. mercer throwing lots of jabs, spoon pounding his body with superb hooks. similar punch output but i felt that was spoon's last excellent performance


i'll address a few points that ppl (can't remember exactly who) made

if lewis-mercer is such a great measuring stick for lewis-holmes, look at those sickening uppercuts and hooks that lennox landed. only mercer could soak up those shots. most ppl would have crumbled. one arm cooney wasn't beaten as easily as ppl say he was by holmes -larry really had to grind him down. cooney was throwing little more than left hooks and holmes - in supposedily his greatest performance - was right in front of him most of the fight. would he have liked lewis' repertoire of shots?

sure larry's jab would be very bothersome for lewis. and holmes was tougher, at least more able to recover from MASSIVE SHOTS. but lewis was bigger, far far physically stronger, hit much harder and had a much better repertoire of shots. holmes didn't have great technique excelt in his jab.

no way holmes can just jab and circle away from lewis. he'd pull himself out of distance. holmes puts so much in his jab he steps into a forces a lot of weight behind it. my view is that he;d be stranded in front of lewis trying to land something meaningful and soak up some very hurtful shots. only in two fights has lennox been outjabbed. he may be able to throw his right over holmes' left


Holmes vs Mercer was interesting. it was also a case of mercer having a total neglect for technique and holmes being very negative & fighting an extremely negative, defensive fight off the ropes. old fighters don't have much offense, but if they're former greats they normally know how to defend themselves & make ppl look bad. carlos ortiz was totally out of it when he fought buchanan, but he still made ken look bad (before he himself quit). shit, holmes made holyfield look like a sack of shit, and we know that's not true

[The Great John L]

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Alp,

I was the one that brought up this fight. Actually I mentioned it twice in this thread. If you read my posts, I did not say it was a bad decision, or that Ali was lucky to win. I simply said in the first post that it was a close official decision (which it was on 2 cards) and if 2 judges had scored one more round for Jones it would have had a dramatic affect on HW history.

In the second post, I was simply saying that I thought it was an off night for Ali. He won, but I just don’t think he was at his best that night. The fight was competitive, but Ali clearly won.

[dempseyfire]

Well, several fights have been brought up as being bad decisions. I think some were and some weren't.

As already mentioned, I feel that Mercer beat Lewis. It was a close fight, and certainly wasn't a "robbery" At the time, many people didn't think Lewis won. Somehow this fight seems to have been forgotten by many people.

Holmes -Witherspoon was also close, but I feel that Holmes did enough to win.

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Holmes-Carl Williams. This was a highway robbery. Williams won at least 10 of the 15 rounds, yet all the judges had Holmes winning easily. I have never seen Witherspoon-Mercer.

you think mercer beat lewis, but that holmes did enough to beat spoon? mein gott. i agree with you on Williams-Holmes - Holmes was following him around, pretty clueless looking. mercer-spoon was very tight. mercer throwing lots of jabs, spoon pounding his body with superb hooks. similar punch output but i felt that was spoon's last excellent performance


i'll address a few points that ppl (can't remember exactly who) made

if lewis-mercer is such a great measuring stick for lewis-holmes, look at those sickening uppercuts and hooks that lennox landed. only mercer could soak up those shots. most ppl would have crumbled. one arm cooney wasn't beaten as easily as ppl say he was by holmes -larry really had to grind him down. cooney was throwing little more than left hooks and holmes - in supposedily his greatest performance - was right in front of him most of the fight. would he have liked lewis' repertoire of shots?

sure larry's jab would be very bothersome for lewis. and holmes was tougher, at least more able to recover from MASSIVE SHOTS. but lewis was bigger, far far physically stronger, hit much harder and had a much better repertoire of shots. holmes didn't have great technique excelt in his jab.

no way holmes can just jab and circle away from lewis. he'd pull himself out of distance. holmes puts so much in his jab he steps into a forces a lot of weight behind it. my view is that he;d be stranded in front of lewis trying to land something meaningful and soak up some very hurtful shots. only in two fights has lennox been outjabbed. he may be able to throw his right over holmes' left


Holmes vs Mercer was interesting. it was also a case of mercer having a total neglect for technique and holmes being very negative & fighting an extremely negative, defensive fight off the ropes. old fighters don't have much offense, but if they're former greats they normally know how to defend themselves & make ppl look bad. carlos ortiz was totally out of it when he fought buchanan, but he still made ken look bad (before he himself quit). shit, holmes made holyfield look like a sack of shit, and we know that's not true

Lewis had a better repetoire of shots? What Larry Holmes fights have you seen? Holmes had one of the quickest sharpest right hands of the past 30 years, and also had a great picture perfect uppercut on the inside. He could throw excellent combinations to the body and head, and possessed great reflexes and a fairly tight defense.

You talk about the uppercuts and hooks Mercer absorbed . . .that was b/c Mercer was a flat-footed boxer whose defense was to use his head to block punches! Let's not over-rate Ray Mercer . . .this is a guy who couldn't secure a clear win over an old Jesse Ferguson twice, lost to Marion Wilson, and was way behind on points vs Damiani until he came back and broke the spaniard's nose. There's no way Lewis would be able to land the same shots on Holmes that he did on Mercer. Also, how does Holmes have such a range problem as you keep mentioning. Lewis's reach was a paltry 2 inches longer, as was his height. That means next to nothing in boxing. Mercer was 6'1 with a 76 inch reach and his jab was hitting Lewis all night.

And only in 2 fights he was outjabbed? He was outjabbed by Bruno, Mercer, Klitschko, Rahman 1, and the Holyfield rematch (except when age and wear contributed to Evander not pulling the trigger). Hell, Shannon Briggs was outjabbing Lewis until the guy began hyperventilating at the end of round 2 b/c his stamina was so awful. Lewis had a good jab but it's a myth that its up there with the likes of Liston and Holmes. When did Lewis put on his so-called 'jabbing clinics?' Vs the likes of Tyson, Tua and Morrison, all short guys with short arms and poor jabs of their own (Tyson did in the 80s but in 2002 he was just a weightlifting headhunter). Hell, if you look at the Rahman rematch you can even see that Rahman was landing as many jabs as Lewis, but Lennox was throwing the power shots after the jab while Rahman wasn't.

Holmes beats Lewis

[Autobarn]

Well, several fights have been brought up as being bad decisions. I think some were and some weren't.

As already mentioned, I feel that Mercer beat Lewis. It was a close fight, and certainly wasn't a "robbery" At the time, many people didn't think Lewis won. Somehow this fight seems to have been forgotten by many people.

Holmes -Witherspoon was also close, but I feel that Holmes did enough to win.

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Holmes-Carl Williams. This was a highway robbery. Williams won at least 10 of the 15 rounds, yet all the judges had Holmes winning easily. I have never seen Witherspoon-Mercer.

you think mercer beat lewis, but that holmes did enough to beat spoon? mein gott. i agree with you on Williams-Holmes - Holmes was following him around, pretty clueless looking. mercer-spoon was very tight. mercer throwing lots of jabs, spoon pounding his body with superb hooks. similar punch output but i felt that was spoon's last excellent performance


i'll address a few points that ppl (can't remember exactly who) made

if lewis-mercer is such a great measuring stick for lewis-holmes, look at those sickening uppercuts and hooks that lennox landed. only mercer could soak up those shots. most ppl would have crumbled. one arm cooney wasn't beaten as easily as ppl say he was by holmes -larry really had to grind him down. cooney was throwing little more than left hooks and holmes - in supposedily his greatest performance - was right in front of him most of the fight. would he have liked lewis' repertoire of shots?

sure larry's jab would be very bothersome for lewis. and holmes was tougher, at least more able to recover from MASSIVE SHOTS. but lewis was bigger, far far physically stronger, hit much harder and had a much better repertoire of shots. holmes didn't have great technique excelt in his jab.

no way holmes can just jab and circle away from lewis. he'd pull himself out of distance. holmes puts so much in his jab he steps into a forces a lot of weight behind it. my view is that he;d be stranded in front of lewis trying to land something meaningful and soak up some very hurtful shots. only in two fights has lennox been outjabbed. he may be able to throw his right over holmes' left


Holmes vs Mercer was interesting. it was also a case of mercer having a total neglect for technique and holmes being very negative & fighting an extremely negative, defensive fight off the ropes. old fighters don't have much offense, but if they're former greats they normally know how to defend themselves & make ppl look bad. carlos ortiz was totally out of it when he fought buchanan, but he still made ken look bad (before he himself quit). shit, holmes made holyfield look like a sack of shit, and we know that's not true

Lewis had a better repetoire of shots? What Larry Holmes fights have you seen? Holmes had one of the quickest sharpest right hands of the past 30 years, and also had a great picture perfect uppercut on the inside. He could throw excellent combinations to the body and head, and possessed great reflexes and a fairly tight defense.

You talk about the uppercuts and hooks Mercer absorbed . . .that was b/c Mercer was a flat-footed boxer whose defense was to use his head to block punches! Let's not over-rate Ray Mercer . . .this is a guy who couldn't secure a clear win over an old Jesse Ferguson twice, lost to Marion Wilson, and was way behind on points vs Damiani until he came back and broke the spaniard's nose. There's no way Lewis would be able to land the same shots on Holmes that he did on Mercer. Also, how does Holmes have such a range problem as you keep mentioning. Lewis's reach was a paltry 2 inches longer, as was his height. That means next to nothing in boxing. Mercer was 6'1 with a 76 inch reach and his jab was hitting Lewis all night.

And only in 2 fights he was outjabbed? He was outjabbed by Bruno, Mercer, Klitschko, Rahman 1, and the Holyfield rematch (except when age and wear contributed to Evander not pulling the trigger). Hell, Shannon Briggs was outjabbing Lewis until the guy began hyperventilating at the end of round 2 b/c his stamina was so awful. Lewis had a good jab but it's a myth that its up there with the likes of Liston and Holmes. When did Lewis put on his so-called 'jabbing clinics?' Vs the likes of Tyson, Tua and Morrison, all short guys with short arms and poor jabs of their own (Tyson did in the 80s but in 2002 he was just a weightlifting headhunter). Hell, if you look at the Rahman rematch you can even see that Rahman was landing as many jabs as Lewis, but Lennox was throwing the power shots after the jab while Rahman wasn't.

Holmes beats Lewis

bruno and at times mercer were outjabbing him. lewis had rahman 1 ready to quit, he was outclassing him but he laid on the ropes and ate a huge shot. as for vitali, well lewis was so out of shape he wasn't even trying to box. mercer did become a very good fighter, pushing not only lewis but hoyfield all the way. holyfield was not outjabbing lewis in fight two. evander didn't win particularly many rounds.

talk all you like about jabs- holyfield was thoroughly outboxed in the first fight. also, lewis had a full arsenal of wicked punches, look at all those big guys he put away: rahman, morrison, ruddock, golota, briggs, grant. holmes had a snappy right but it wasn't a great punch. often he's put so much into the jab his follow ups weren't so great. holmes was a big guy and he was not great at altering range. so many times he'd get caught - especially with the bigger guys cooney and truth.

despite the #s of inches in reach, it's not easy fighting a taller man. it's daunting. thier chins are higher up, their stance is much wider & you have to step in their 'zone' more, you have to step in and reach. (holmes wasn't particlarly athletic, or hugely agile to alter range continually.) punches drop down from above you and it's far harder than fighting someone your own size. holmes had the same reach as Cooney and he was bang in front of limited Gerry and soaked some big shots up.

crude guys like weaver, shavers, snipes had peak holmes in all kinds of trouble. definitely, these were the shots that lewis wouldn't be able to recover from. but what would a finesse fighter with massive strength & power do, someone with the class to follow up?


i can't believe ppl see this as such a formality for Holmes. this is a very hard fight for him.

[Ambling Alp]

Jones -Clay (Ali) . This really bugs me when I hear people say that Ali was lucky to win the decison. Jones did well, but not enough. There is no way that Jones won as many rounds as Ali.

Alp,

I was the one that brought up this fight. Actually I mentioned it twice in this thread. If you read my posts, I did not say it was a bad decision, or that Ali was lucky to win. I simply said in the first post that it was a close official decision (which it was on 2 cards) and if 2 judges had scored one more round for Jones it would have had a dramatic affect on HW history.

In the second post, I was simply saying that I thought it was an off night for Ali. He won, but I just don’t think he was at his best that night. The fight was competitive, but Ali clearly won.

Sorry John L, I didn't read your post closely enough the first time. I had heard the myth about Jones getting ripped off against Ali many times before and thought that was what you were implying.

[dempseyfire]

you think mercer beat lewis, but that holmes did enough to beat spoon? mein gott. i agree with you on Williams-Holmes - Holmes was following him around, pretty clueless looking. mercer-spoon was very tight. mercer throwing lots of jabs, spoon pounding his body with superb hooks. similar punch output but i felt that was spoon's last excellent performance


i'll address a few points that ppl (can't remember exactly who) made

if lewis-mercer is such a great measuring stick for lewis-holmes, look at those sickening uppercuts and hooks that lennox landed. only mercer could soak up those shots. most ppl would have crumbled. one arm cooney wasn't beaten as easily as ppl say he was by holmes -larry really had to grind him down. cooney was throwing little more than left hooks and holmes - in supposedily his greatest performance - was right in front of him most of the fight. would he have liked lewis' repertoire of shots?

sure larry's jab would be very bothersome for lewis. and holmes was tougher, at least more able to recover from MASSIVE SHOTS. but lewis was bigger, far far physically stronger, hit much harder and had a much better repertoire of shots. holmes didn't have great technique excelt in his jab.

no way holmes can just jab and circle away from lewis. he'd pull himself out of distance. holmes puts so much in his jab he steps into a forces a lot of weight behind it. my view is that he;d be stranded in front of lewis trying to land something meaningful and soak up some very hurtful shots. only in two fights has lennox been outjabbed. he may be able to throw his right over holmes' left


Holmes vs Mercer was interesting. it was also a case of mercer having a total neglect for technique and holmes being very negative & fighting an extremely negative, defensive fight off the ropes. old fighters don't have much offense, but if they're former greats they normally know how to defend themselves & make ppl look bad. carlos ortiz was totally out of it when he fought buchanan, but he still made ken look bad (before he himself quit). shit, holmes made holyfield look like a sack of shit, and we know that's not true

Lewis had a better repetoire of shots? What Larry Holmes fights have you seen? Holmes had one of the quickest sharpest right hands of the past 30 years, and also had a great picture perfect uppercut on the inside. He could throw excellent combinations to the body and head, and possessed great reflexes and a fairly tight defense.

You talk about the uppercuts and hooks Mercer absorbed . . .that was b/c Mercer was a flat-footed boxer whose defense was to use his head to block punches! Let's not over-rate Ray Mercer . . .this is a guy who couldn't secure a clear win over an old Jesse Ferguson twice, lost to Marion Wilson, and was way behind on points vs Damiani until he came back and broke the spaniard's nose. There's no way Lewis would be able to land the same shots on Holmes that he did on Mercer. Also, how does Holmes have such a range problem as you keep mentioning. Lewis's reach was a paltry 2 inches longer, as was his height. That means next to nothing in boxing. Mercer was 6'1 with a 76 inch reach and his jab was hitting Lewis all night.

And only in 2 fights he was outjabbed? He was outjabbed by Bruno, Mercer, Klitschko, Rahman 1, and the Holyfield rematch (except when age and wear contributed to Evander not pulling the trigger). Hell, Shannon Briggs was outjabbing Lewis until the guy began hyperventilating at the end of round 2 b/c his stamina was so awful. Lewis had a good jab but it's a myth that its up there with the likes of Liston and Holmes. When did Lewis put on his so-called 'jabbing clinics?' Vs the likes of Tyson, Tua and Morrison, all short guys with short arms and poor jabs of their own (Tyson did in the 80s but in 2002 he was just a weightlifting headhunter). Hell, if you look at the Rahman rematch you can even see that Rahman was landing as many jabs as Lewis, but Lennox was throwing the power shots after the jab while Rahman wasn't.

Holmes beats Lewis

bruno and at times mercer were outjabbing him. lewis had rahman 1 ready to quit, he was outclassing him but he laid on the ropes and ate a huge shot. as for vitali, well lewis was so out of shape he wasn't even trying to box. mercer did become a very good fighter, pushing not only lewis but hoyfield all the way. holyfield was not outjabbing lewis in fight two. evander didn't win particularly many rounds.

talk all you like about jabs- holyfield was thoroughly outboxed in the first fight. also, lewis had a full arsenal of wicked punches, look at all those big guys he put away: rahman, morrison, ruddock, golota, briggs, grant. holmes had a snappy right but it wasn't a great punch. often he's put so much into the jab his follow ups weren't so great. holmes was a big guy and he was not great at altering range. so many times he'd get caught - especially with the bigger guys cooney and truth.

despite the #s of inches in reach, it's not easy fighting a taller man. it's daunting. thier chins are higher up, their stance is much wider & you have to step in their 'zone' more, you have to step in and reach. (holmes wasn't particlarly athletic, or hugely agile to alter range continually.) punches drop down from above you and it's far harder than fighting someone your own size. holmes had the same reach as Cooney and he was bang in front of limited Gerry and soaked some big shots up.

crude guys like weaver, shavers, snipes had peak holmes in all kinds of trouble. definitely, these were the shots that lewis wouldn't be able to recover from. but what would a finesse fighter with massive strength & power do, someone with the class to follow up?


i can't believe ppl see this as such a formality for Holmes. this is a very hard fight for him.

Cooney-Holmes was a one-sided fight. I don't know why you keep bringing that fight up.

Lewis was not a great finisher. How many rounds did it take him to put out a shot Tyson until Mike practically asked him to finish the job? Tyson's meltdowns vs Williams and McBride sure makes that fight look even less impressive than it already was.

-you keep talking about the size of Grant, Briggs, Morrison, Ruddock etc. They were big, but poor boxers with poor stamina. I say Lewis excelled in his era primarily b/c his opponents lacked the finesse and conditioning to finish the job when they had HIM hurt. Lewis was knocked out twice by fringe contenders and hurt by the likes of Briggs, Mercer, Klitschko, Bruno, and Holyfield, but those opponents either lacked the youth,skills, or conditioning to take advantage. Lewis had better stamina than most of his opponents, but stamina was not his strong suit. In the last round vs Mercer and the Holyfield rematch, he failed to come out strong for the final round in close fights, simply b/c his big body was too tired. Lennox Lewis also NEVER had to go 15 rounds. Holmes not only went 15 many times, but he often turned up the heat in those championship rounds. Lewis would be fighting a guy who not only was out-boxing him, but wasn't getting tired like so many of his overtly-muscled comp did.

Unlike you claim, Holmes was extremely agile and had great speed and reflexes. Holyfield bothered Lewis all night in their rematch despite throwing a laughingly low amount of punches, simply b/c he employed foot movement and feints, something he did not do in their first fight. Holmes not only could submit a high punch output but was very fleet of foot and had great ring movement. Lewis, not fighting some flat-footed banger who gets tired by the 5th round, is out of his element.

[jezzamundo]

I scored the fight to Lewis by 1 round, but I am a Lewis fan and I think that a draw would have been a fairer result. It WAS a close fight, but it really shouldn't have been. I think that fight was probably the worst I have ever seen Lewis.

Dempseyfire, as always I really think you do underrate Lewis, but I do agree that Holmes would have beaten him by a clear decision or late KO.

[dempseyfire]

I scored the fight to Lewis by 1 round, but I am a Lewis fan and I think that a draw would have been a fairer result. It WAS a close fight, but it really shouldn't have been. I think that fight was probably the worst I have ever seen Lewis.

Dempseyfire, as always I really think you do underrate Lewis, but I do agree that Holmes would have beaten him by a clear decision or late KO.

I actually think it's one of Lewis's best fights. Those combos in round 4 are the most vicious exchanges he ever had, and unlike vs the likes of Tyson and Holyfield (in which Lewis seemed incredibly worried about inside exchanges), Lewis really gutted out a tough fight and showed that he was a warrior and not a 'Wlad' type fighter who's scared to get hit. Perhaps that contributed to Lewis's fatigue in rounds 9 and 10, but Lewis in rounds 1-6 never fought a more exciting fight.

[The Great John L]

I actually think it's one of Lewis's best fights. Those combos in round 4 are the most vicious exchanges he ever had, and unlike vs the likes of Tyson and Holyfield (in which Lewis seemed incredibly worried about inside exchanges), Lewis really gutted out a tough fight and showed that he was a warrior and not a 'Wlad' type fighter who's scared to get hit. Perhaps that contributed to Lewis's fatigue in rounds 9 and 10, but Lewis in rounds 1-6 never fought a more exciting fight.

Interesting perspective dempsey.

[jezzamundo]

I actually think it's one of Lewis's best fights. Those combos in round 4 are the most vicious exchanges he ever had, and unlike vs the likes of Tyson and Holyfield (in which Lewis seemed incredibly worried about inside exchanges), Lewis really gutted out a tough fight and showed that he was a warrior and not a 'Wlad' type fighter who's scared to get hit. Perhaps that contributed to Lewis's fatigue in rounds 9 and 10, but Lewis in rounds 1-6 never fought a more exciting fight.

I agree with everything you said there except that it was one of his best fights. Yes, it showed that he could tough it out, but I think that was the last thing Lewis should have been doing against Mercer. I always thought Lewis did better when he fought cautiously, and looked vulnerable when he went for all out aggression. I will however, admit that Lewis was overly defensive against Holyfield and this did not serve him well.

I think Lewis underestimated Mercer. He had the ability to outbox him and win a lopsided decision, but he did not use his jab well enough and got hit a lot more than he would have had he been more cautious. Mercer did expose Lewis a bit with his jab though, as Bruno did earlier in his career.

I think these are Lewis's best performances (in no particular order):
Ruddock
Rahman II
Tua
Morrison
Tyson

I don't put Golota in there because of his mental frailties and the fact that Brewster blew him away in similar style.