Sol Butler: trainer, manager... and boxer? (1930s in LA)

[Brian Hallstoos]

I'm writing a biography on Olympian & all-around athlete SOL BUTLER. In Dec. 1931 he moved to LA. By 1933 he was training DYNAMITE JACKSON, "YOUNG" PETER JACKSON, and CHALKY WRIGHT (managed by WIRT ROSS). He would later train CHARLEY "KILLER" COATES (managed by SUEY WELCH) and manage DYNAMITE JACKSON. Once he returned to Chicago he trained ALTUS ALLEN (late-30s/early-40s). I came across one article that said he (Butler) was "a former fighter" - and the 1934 LA City Directory lists him as a pugilist - but I've not found any other evidence of him boxing. He apparently spent a lot of time at MAIN STREET GYM. Do any images of him as a trainer/with others exist (aside from 1935 LA Times images w/ Coates and Welch)? Do any stories/info about Butler with any of these boxers & managers exist beyond what's in LA Times, Pittsburgh Courier, and a few other newspapers? Any knowledge of Butler training/managing Gorilla Jones or any other boxers in LA? Any evidence of Butler himself boxing? What I've found so far - including in Callis and Johnston's "Boxing In the Los Angeles Area 1880-2005" - suggests that he worked with many of the most promising black boxers of the 1930s (in particular Wright). I'm eager to learn more about what Butler experienced, how he fit in, etc. Thanks. -Brian Hallstoos

[chrisjs1985]

If you post in the classic west coast thread here you may be able to be pointed in the right direction.

[Chuck1052]

I'm writing a biography on Olympian & all-around athlete SOL BUTLER. In Dec. 1931 he moved to LA. By 1933 he was training DYNAMITE JACKSON, "YOUNG" PETER JACKSON, and CHALKY WRIGHT (managed by WIRT ROSS). He would later train CHARLEY "KILLER" COATES (managed by SUEY WELCH) and manage DYNAMITE JACKSON. Once he returned to Chicago he trained ALTUS ALLEN (late-30s/early-40s). I came across one article that said he (Butler) was "a former fighter" - and the 1934 LA City Directory lists him as a pugilist - but I've not found any other evidence of him boxing. He apparently spent a lot of time at MAIN STREET GYM. Do any images of him as a trainer/with others exist (aside from 1935 LA Times images w/ Coates and Welch)? Do any stories/info about Butler with any of these boxers & managers exist beyond what's in LA Times, Pittsburgh Courier, and a few other newspapers? Any knowledge of Butler training/managing Gorilla Jones or any other boxers in LA? Any evidence of Butler himself boxing? What I've found so far - including in Callis and Johnston's "Boxing In the Los Angeles Area 1880-2005" - suggests that he worked with many of the most promising black boxers of the 1930s (in particular Wright). I'm eager to learn more about what Butler experienced, how he fit in, etc. Thanks. -Brian Hallstoos

While reading newspaper articles about Sol Butler in the Los Angeles Times, I find it likely that he was helping Young Peter Jackson and Dynamite Jackson get into condition, but not necessarily to help them with their boxing skills. Is there any indication that Butler knew anything about the fine points of boxing?

By the way, Wirt Ross also was managing Henry Armstrong from 1932 to 1936. But Armstrong was having a tough time making a living much of the time with Ross at the helm. In fairness to Ross, it was during the Great Depression, a time when the situation was absolutely terrible in professional boxing in California. Things were really picking up for Armstrong during 1936. Not long afterwards, Ross sold Armstrong's contract. Armstrong's new brain trust had connections in New York City, enabling Armstrong to get lucrative bouts and become a world titleholder in three weight divisions at the same time.

- Chuck Johnston

[Brian Hallstoos]

While reading newspaper articles about Sol Butler in the Los Angeles Times, I find it likely that he was helping Young Peter Jackson and Dynamite Jackson get into condition, but not necessarily to help them with their boxing skills. Is there any indication that Butler knew anything about the fine points of boxing?

By the way, Wirt Ross also was managing Henry Armstrong from 1932 to 1936. But Armstrong was having a tough time making a living much of the time with Ross at the helm. In fairness to Ross, it was during the Great Depression, a time when the situation was absolutely terrible in professional boxing in California. Things were really picking up for Armstrong during 1936. Not long afterwards, Ross sold Armstrong's contract. Armstrong's new brain trust had connections in New York City, enabling Armstrong to get lucrative bouts and become a world titleholder in three weight divisions at the same time.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

I just now discovered your post minutes after reading relevant portions of Armstrong's autobiography Gloves, Glory and God, which concur with what you write about Ross. I didn't find Butler referenced in this book, and it appears that Armstrong's friend/"brother" Harry Armstrong served as Henry's trainer during these years. It's interesting to compare Henry Armstrong's experience with Ross and at Main Street Gym with that described by Jay Thomas Caldwell in his 1950's novel Me An' You. Caldwell - who appears to have been a Golden Gloves champ in CA - apparently got his info on Ross (character One Gun in book) and the gym from Chalky Wright, to whom Caldwell dedicated his novel. Caldwell/Wright describe Main Street Gym as a place where a black boxer felt comfortable and not racially on guard ("he did not have to think about being a Negro"); perhaps Armstrong felt similarly, although he wrote that a couple/few of the managers there, after a manager named Paddy Quaid rejected him, would not consider signing him as a pro b/c they only handled white boxers. Armstrong and Caldwell/Wright all agree that black boxers had difficulty getting good fights, especially if they did well, like Armstrong. Based on Butler's experience in other sports, an opportunity to help black boxers get fair/appropriate opportunities (e.g. fight quality white boxers, get title fights...) would have motivated him.

Regarding your question on if Butler may have simply served to get his fighters in shape, I'm not sure. It's a great question. In one Associated Negro Press article I found the following: Butler "concentrated on teaching the big fast powerful part Cherokee [referring to Bendy/Dynamite Jackson] how to change that long left of his into a machine gun bullet, also how to use his weight and heighth [sic] to advantage in every other blow and maneuver.” This suggests that he did work on skills/fine points. The fact that the directory lists him as a pugilist, and a later article refers to his boxing career (whatever it was) suggests he had some training, but I can't figure out how much. When Butler worked as sports editor for the Chicago Bee during the 1920s, he wrote about boxing/appeared to follow it closely (from what little evidence of the Bee has survived). He was probably friends with Jack Johnson since both men lived in Chicago and there belonged to an organization called Ye Olde Tymers Club (retired sports greats who met regularly and sought to train/build up African American youth through athletics). These facts don't necessarily mean Butler knew how to teach boxing skills. Perhaps the strongest argument that he did teach skills were the number of articles in the Black Press that refer to him as a trainer, even if they don't go into specifics about what exactly he taught. Maybe he aspired/tried to teach the skills, but best served his fighters by getting them in shape??? I'm struggling with how to judge his impact on boxing and vice versa. Regarding the latter, perhaps one of the biggest impacts of boxing on him was how it/individuals like Wright and Gorilla Jones may have exposed him to Hollywood and celebrities, like Mae West - Butler had film career ambitions.

-Brian

[Brian Hallstoos]

If you post in the classic west coast thread here you may be able to be pointed in the right direction.

Chris, Thanks for the suggestion. Would it be bad form/unacceptable to copy/paste my post and Chuck Johnson's reply in the Classic West Coast thread? Is there a way to link between this thread and that one? No worries if you don't have answers to this - I'm simply thinking "out loud." -Brian

[chrisjs1985]

If you post in the classic west coast thread here you may be able to be pointed in the right direction.

Chris, Thanks for the suggestion. Would it be bad form/unacceptable to copy/paste my post and Chuck Johnson's reply in the Classic West Coast thread? Is there a way to link between this thread and that one? No worries if you don't have answers to this - I'm simply thinking "out loud." -Brian

No, just put it in there. That will be fine.

[Chuck1052]

While reading newspaper articles about Sol Butler in the Los Angeles Times, I find it likely that he was helping Young Peter Jackson and Dynamite Jackson get into condition, but not necessarily to help them with their boxing skills. Is there any indication that Butler knew anything about the fine points of boxing?

By the way, Wirt Ross also was managing Henry Armstrong from 1932 to 1936. But Armstrong was having a tough time making a living much of the time with Ross at the helm. In fairness to Ross, it was during the Great Depression, a time when the situation was absolutely terrible in professional boxing in California. Things were really picking up for Armstrong during 1936. Not long afterwards, Ross sold Armstrong's contract. Armstrong's new brain trust had connections in New York City, enabling Armstrong to get lucrative bouts and become a world titleholder in three weight divisions at the same time.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

I just now discovered your post minutes after reading relevant portions of Armstrong's autobiography Gloves, Glory and God, which concur with what you write about Ross. I didn't find Butler referenced in this book, and it appears that Armstrong's friend/"brother" Harry Armstrong served as Henry's trainer during these years. It's interesting to compare Henry Armstrong's experience with Ross and at Main Street Gym with that described by Jay Thomas Caldwell in his 1950's novel Me An' You. Caldwell - who appears to have been a Golden Gloves champ in CA - apparently got his info on Ross (character One Gun in book) and the gym from Chalky Wright, to whom Caldwell dedicated his novel. Caldwell/Wright describe Main Street Gym as a place where a black boxer felt comfortable and not racially on guard ("he did not have to think about being a Negro"); perhaps Armstrong felt similarly, although he wrote that a couple/few of the managers there, after a manager named Paddy Quaid rejected him, would not consider signing him as a pro b/c they only handled white boxers. Armstrong and Caldwell/Wright all agree that black boxers had difficulty getting good fights, especially if they did well, like Armstrong. Based on Butler's experience in other sports, an opportunity to help black boxers get fair/appropriate opportunities (e.g. fight quality white boxers, get title fights...) would have motivated him.

Regarding your question on if Butler may have simply served to get his fighters in shape, I'm not sure. It's a great question. In one Associated Negro Press article I found the following: Butler "concentrated on teaching the big fast powerful part Cherokee [referring to Bendy/Dynamite Jackson] how to change that long left of his into a machine gun bullet, also how to use his weight and heighth [sic] to advantage in every other blow and maneuver.” This suggests that he did work on skills/fine points. The fact that the directory lists him as a pugilist, and a later article refers to his boxing career (whatever it was) suggests he had some training, but I can't figure out how much. When Butler worked as sports editor for the Chicago Bee during the 1920s, he wrote about boxing/appeared to follow it closely (from what little evidence of the Bee has survived). He was probably friends with Jack Johnson since both men lived in Chicago and there belonged to an organization called Ye Olde Tymers Club (retired sports greats who met regularly and sought to train/build up African American youth through athletics). These facts don't necessarily mean Butler knew how to teach boxing skills. Perhaps the strongest argument that he did teach skills were the number of articles in the Black Press that refer to him as a trainer, even if they don't go into specifics about what exactly he taught. Maybe he aspired/tried to teach the skills, but best served his fighters by getting them in shape??? I'm struggling with how to judge his impact on boxing and vice versa. Regarding the latter, perhaps one of the biggest impacts of boxing on him was how it/individuals like Wright and Gorilla Jones may have exposed him to Hollywood and celebrities, like Mae West - Butler had film career ambitions.

-Brian

Brian, I got off a tangent when the name of Wirt Ross came up. Henry Armstrong was the best-known fighter that he managed, but Henry didn't get that many decent paydays while managed by Ross, especially from 1932 to 1935. During the early 1930s, Dynamite Jackson and Young Peter Jackson were getting main events at the Olympic Auditorium. But the Olympic with Jack Doyle as the promoter and Wad Wadhams as the matchmaker was going through a really bad period during the early 1930s. It became so bad during 1933 that Doyle and Wadhams got out of the business, especially after the big financial flop in the promotion of world welterweight title bout between Jimmy McLarnin and Young Corbett III at Wrigley Field.

The Hollywood Legion Stadium was the most successful and most stable professional boxing venue in California by a considerable margin during the 1930s. However, black boxers were not permitted to fight at the Legion Stadium (there were two versions) from its beginning in 1921 to 1940. That made it much tougher for even the best black boxers to make a decent living in Los Angeles, especially during the 1930s. But while the second version of the Hollywood Legion Stadium was being built on the same site as the first version during the late 1930s, black boxers were fighting on Hollywood Legion shows staged at Gilmore Stadium. The ban on black boxers fighting at the Legion Stadium was lifted when a protest was made at the time that the Hollywood Legion was in the process of staging the California version of the world middleweight title between Ceferino Garcia, the champion, and Armstrong, the challenger, during 1940.

- Chuck Johnston

[chrisjs1985]

While reading newspaper articles about Sol Butler in the Los Angeles Times, I find it likely that he was helping Young Peter Jackson and Dynamite Jackson get into condition, but not necessarily to help them with their boxing skills. Is there any indication that Butler knew anything about the fine points of boxing?

By the way, Wirt Ross also was managing Henry Armstrong from 1932 to 1936. But Armstrong was having a tough time making a living much of the time with Ross at the helm. In fairness to Ross, it was during the Great Depression, a time when the situation was absolutely terrible in professional boxing in California. Things were really picking up for Armstrong during 1936. Not long afterwards, Ross sold Armstrong's contract. Armstrong's new brain trust had connections in New York City, enabling Armstrong to get lucrative bouts and become a world titleholder in three weight divisions at the same time.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

I just now discovered your post minutes after reading relevant portions of Armstrong's autobiography Gloves, Glory and God, which concur with what you write about Ross. I didn't find Butler referenced in this book, and it appears that Armstrong's friend/"brother" Harry Armstrong served as Henry's trainer during these years. It's interesting to compare Henry Armstrong's experience with Ross and at Main Street Gym with that described by Jay Thomas Caldwell in his 1950's novel Me An' You. Caldwell - who appears to have been a Golden Gloves champ in CA - apparently got his info on Ross (character One Gun in book) and the gym from Chalky Wright, to whom Caldwell dedicated his novel. Caldwell/Wright describe Main Street Gym as a place where a black boxer felt comfortable and not racially on guard ("he did not have to think about being a Negro"); perhaps Armstrong felt similarly, although he wrote that a couple/few of the managers there, after a manager named Paddy Quaid rejected him, would not consider signing him as a pro b/c they only handled white boxers. Armstrong and Caldwell/Wright all agree that black boxers had difficulty getting good fights, especially if they did well, like Armstrong. Based on Butler's experience in other sports, an opportunity to help black boxers get fair/appropriate opportunities (e.g. fight quality white boxers, get title fights...) would have motivated him.

Regarding your question on if Butler may have simply served to get his fighters in shape, I'm not sure. It's a great question. In one Associated Negro Press article I found the following: Butler "concentrated on teaching the big fast powerful part Cherokee [referring to Bendy/Dynamite Jackson] how to change that long left of his into a machine gun bullet, also how to use his weight and heighth [sic] to advantage in every other blow and maneuver.” This suggests that he did work on skills/fine points. The fact that the directory lists him as a pugilist, and a later article refers to his boxing career (whatever it was) suggests he had some training, but I can't figure out how much. When Butler worked as sports editor for the Chicago Bee during the 1920s, he wrote about boxing/appeared to follow it closely (from what little evidence of the Bee has survived). He was probably friends with Jack Johnson since both men lived in Chicago and there belonged to an organization called Ye Olde Tymers Club (retired sports greats who met regularly and sought to train/build up African American youth through athletics). These facts don't necessarily mean Butler knew how to teach boxing skills. Perhaps the strongest argument that he did teach skills were the number of articles in the Black Press that refer to him as a trainer, even if they don't go into specifics about what exactly he taught. Maybe he aspired/tried to teach the skills, but best served his fighters by getting them in shape??? I'm struggling with how to judge his impact on boxing and vice versa. Regarding the latter, perhaps one of the biggest impacts of boxing on him was how it/individuals like Wright and Gorilla Jones may have exposed him to Hollywood and celebrities, like Mae West - Butler had film career ambitions.

-Brian

Brian, I've never read Armstrong's bio but saw it online at a reasonable price. Is it a good book and worth getting?

[Brian Hallstoos]

Chris, I hesitate to say one way or the other because I've only read about 30-40 pages (a chapter on his Los Angeles years toward the middle). This portion was enjoyable, lively, and useful for my research. One thing I found a bit odd was that it's an autobiography, but the entire thing is written in third person (he, his, him for Armstrong). He kind of explains his reason for this in the introduction, but it gave me the impression that the two (I believe) people he thanks for helping him write the book had a lot to do with the writing. I got my copy through the library, but wouldn't have been disappointed if I had to order a used copy for a "reasonable price" (i.e. $5-$15). -Brian

[Brian Hallstoos]

Chuck,
Do you think black boxers would have had greater access to venues/more opportunities for success in Chicago during the Depression than in Los Angeles? Given how well-connected Butler was in Chicago, it seems that he could have trained boxers (whatever this meant exactly in his case) in this city just as well as in LA - and he did by the late-1930s. You mentioned the difficulty for black boxers to make a decent living during the Depression, and I'm guessing that black trainers may have struggled even more??? Do you think a trainer could have made a living on this work alone? Based on his previous experiences in Chicago, Butler likely had other jobs/sources of income. When I read about Henry Armstrong running multiple shoeshine businesses, I thought this sounded like something Sol might do (he shined shoes as a teenager). His friend Fritz Pollard (HOF football player) ran a dry cleaning or laundry business several miles from the Central Avenue African American community. Like most, Butler may have struggled to keep afloat, a stressful situation perhaps compounded by his desire to maintain an elite/Olympic image. Aside from financial concerns, I can imagine him doing what he could to help get black boxers into the Hollywood Legion Stadium. Plenty of reasons for frustration.
Thanks,
Brian

[Chuck1052]

Chuck,
Do you think black boxers would have had greater access to venues/more opportunities for success in Chicago during the Depression than in Los Angeles? Given how well-connected Butler was in Chicago, it seems that he could have trained boxers (whatever this meant exactly in his case) in this city just as well as in LA - and he did by the late-1930s. You mentioned the difficulty for black boxers to make a decent living during the Depression, and I'm guessing that black trainers may have struggled even more??? Do you think a trainer could have made a living on this work alone? Based on his previous experiences in Chicago, Butler likely had other jobs/sources of income. When I read about Henry Armstrong running multiple shoeshine businesses, I thought this sounded like something Sol might do (he shined shoes as a teenager). His friend Fritz Pollard (HOF football player) ran a dry cleaning or laundry business several miles from the Central Avenue African American community. Like most, Butler may have struggled to keep afloat, a stressful situation perhaps compounded by his desire to maintain an elite/Olympic image. Aside from financial concerns, I can imagine him doing what he could to help get black boxers into the Hollywood Legion Stadium. Plenty of reasons for frustration.
Thanks,
Brian

Professional boxing was having a very tough time of it throughout the United States from 1932 to 1935, including in Chicago and California. Yes, Joe Louis became a tremendous gate attraction very quickly after he had his pro debut in Chicago during 1934, but he was a young, fresh-faced heavyweight with an enormous amount of talent and a dynamic fighting style.

Despite the fact that professional boxing venues generally were having a very tough time of it in California from 1932 to 1935, the state still had a large number of professional boxing shows at the time. As a result, boxers, black or white, still could get quite a few bouts in California even if their paydays often were meager.

One positive development for black boxers in Los Angeles was when Joe Waterman, a tremendous all-around boxing man, became the matchmaker at the Olympic Auditorium during late 1935. Waterman quickly turned things around at the storied venue by slashing the admission prices drastically and putting on appealing boxing shows to draw good crowds. The new admission prices ranged from twenty-five cents for general admission to one dollar for a reserved seat. As a result, a capacity crowd with the new admission prices would result in a $5,200. gate. During the 1920s, a capacity crowd would have resulted in a gate of about $18,000. at the regular admission prices of the time. But a $5,200. gate for a regular boxing show was quite good during 1935.

Waterman was very willing to use black boxers on his boxing shows at the Olympic. Both Henry Armstrong and Charley "Killer" Coates seem to get a great boost to their boxing careers with Waterman at the helm, especially Armstrong.

- Chuck Johnston