My Daddy Doesn't Like the Great Roberto Duran, but Loves the Great Sugar Ray Leonard

[elmersalsa]

I just had this conversation with my dad about the great Roberto Duran. He never liked Duran, but he always loved the great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I loved both of them, but, I loved The Hands of Stone more than Sugar Ray.

His argument is saying that he could not beat the great and exceptional guys like Marvelous, Thomas Hearns, and Wilfred Benitez.

My argument was that it is VERY HARD to beat an exceptional boxer that is above your weight class. And I gave some examples:

Bob Foster was a destroyer at 175lbs, but, at heavyweight, he couldn't beat nobody.

Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was whupped by the great Carlos Monzon. His answer was that Mantequilla was old. I just laughed.

Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't beat Joey Maxim. He said that Robinson was beating Maxim, but , THE HEAT, THE HEAT, drained him. Still, Maxim won. Robinson NEVER went up to light heavyweight after that.

Dick Tiger was decapitated by Bob Foster.

Salvador Sanchez destroyed Wilfredo Gomez.

Marvelous knocked out The Hitman.

Aaron Pryor beat Alexis Arguello twice.

Did he see the point? I don't know.

He also said that Davey Moore and Iran Barkley weren't great fighters, which is true, but Barkley beat Hearns TWICE and Moore beat Benitez by knockout. He said that Hearns was washed up. But, ain't Duran was washed up when he fought the four of them?

I asked him if Sugar Ray Leonard could have beaten Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad and Dwight Braxton at 175lbs? His response was that is too much of a weight class for Leonard. But, 154lbs and Middleweight classes weren't too much of a weight class for Duran?

I told him that Duran went up 12 pounds to kick Sugar Ray's ass.

I said that is VERY RARE that a guy goes up and dominate another class, especially if the upper class got exceptional boxers.


How many fighters have done that? But, Duran gotta be the exception?

I told him no hard feelings, daddy. I love you. He said that the conversation or argument wasn't going anywhere.

Your thoughts.

[margaret thatcher]

Was your daddy not great too?

[elmersalsa]

Was your daddy not great too?

In my mind, yes. He is my dad. A great man.

[Noxy]

Agreed, I remember at school some people used to say Duran was the weak one of the Fab Four. I used to think - no, Duran was an LW who moved up. He was an amazing LW too, even before he moved up to be amazing again.

Holyfield’s the same. People only talk about his HW career. He cleaned up at Cruiser before moving up to HW.

[elmersalsa]

Agreed, I remember at school some people used to say Duran was the weak one of the Fab Four. I used to think - no, Duran was an LW who moved up. He was an amazing LW too, even before he moved up to be amazing again.

Holyfield’s the same. People only talk about his HW career. He cleaned up at Cruiser before moving up to HW.

Duran reigned for 7 years as World Lightweight Champion.

My dad even mentioned that he took Ken Buchanan's crown by a foul. I agreed with him about that. But I never told him that Duran was winning comfortably anyway.

[elmersalsa]

Agreed, I remember at school some people used to say Duran was the weak one of the Fab Four. I used to think - no, Duran was an LW who moved up. He was an amazing LW too, even before he moved up to be amazing again.

Holyfield’s the same. People only talk about his HW career. He cleaned up at Cruiser before moving up to HW.

Also, when Duran became Lightweight Champion, Marvelous, Sugar Ray, El Radar and The Hitman were not even pros yet.

As a matter of fact, when Sugar Ray and Tommy turned pro, Duran was already a ten year fighting veteran, and already a legendary champion for 5 years.

[Controversial]

People forget too that Duran was ahead on two cards against Hagler and even on the other after 13 rounds,

[Onetimeonly]

People forget too that Duran was ahead on two cards against Hagler and even on the other after 13 rounds,

Do they? That's usually the first thing I hear about the fight. What people forget is that scoring was highly favorable to Duran.

[chrisjs1985]

People forget too that Duran was ahead on two cards against Hagler and even on the other after 13 rounds,

Those scores were ludicrous. Duran won 5 rounds. 6 at best.

[Duran1970]

Thats rare...most of the ol timers I discuss boxing with can't stand ray Leonard

[Ambling Alp II]

Outside of the Boxrec world, everyone I talk boxing with thinks of a Duran as a quitter and likes Leonard.

[Ambling Alp II]

I just had this conversation with my dad about the great Roberto Duran. He never liked Duran, but he always loved the great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I loved both of them, but, I loved The Hands of Stone more than Sugar Ray.

His argument is saying that he could not beat the great and exceptional guys like Marvelous, Thomas Hearns, and Wilfred Benitez.

My argument was that it is VERY HARD to beat an exceptional boxer that is above your weight class. And I gave some examples:

Bob Foster was a destroyer at 175lbs, but, at heavyweight, he couldn't beat nobody.

Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was whupped by the great Carlos Monzon. His answer was that Mantequilla was old. I just laughed.

Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't beat Joey Maxim. He said that Robinson was beating Maxim, but , THE HEAT, THE HEAT, drained him. Still, Maxim won. Robinson NEVER went up to light heavyweight after that.

Dick Tiger was decapitated by Bob Foster.

Salvador Sanchez destroyed Wilfredo Gomez.

Marvelous knocked out The Hitman.

Aaron Pryor beat Alexis Arguello twice.

Did he see the point? I don't know.

He also said that Davey Moore and Iran Barkley weren't great fighters, which is true, but Barkley beat Hearns TWICE and Moore beat Benitez by knockout. He said that Hearns was washed up. But, ain't Duran was washed up when he fought the four of them?

I asked him if Sugar Ray Leonard could have beaten Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad and Dwight Braxton at 175lbs? His response was that is too much of a weight class for Leonard. But, 154lbs and Middleweight classes weren't too much of a weight class for Duran?

I told him that Duran went up 12 pounds to kick Sugar Ray's ass.

I said that is VERY RARE that a guy goes up and dominate another class, especially if the upper class got exceptional boxers.


How many fighters have done that? But, Duran gotta be the exception?

I told him no hard feelings, daddy. I love you. He said that the conversation or argument wasn't going anywhere.

Your thoughts.

Most of your arguements don't go anywhwre becasue you refuse to consider the other person's points.

Duran was not an excpetion moving up in weight to beat a great fighter.

To name a few:
Robinson beat LaMotta while still a welterweight. (Unlike Duran who was a welterweight when he beat Leonard)
Armstrong beat Ross
Greb beat Tunney
Fitzsimmons beat Corbett
Griiffith beat Tiger
Ross beat McLarnin
Canzoneri beat Kid Berg
Oh and Leonard beat Hagler. You always seem to forget about that one.

Most of your example are weak. Bob Foster fighting Ali Frazier is not remotely close to Duran fighting Leonard.
Sanchez beat Gomez because he simply was better.
Tiger was ancient well past it when Foster beat him. (btw Tiger did beat Torres at light heavy)

True Leonard never beat Michael Spinks, or Saad Muhammad or Qawi. Duran scraping by Iran Barkley is hardly comparable.

Your dad was right about Duran losing most of his big fights. He did. In the 5 biggest fights of his career, he went 1-4.

And all you can do is your Duran was always lightweight" crybaby excuses. Tough $hit.

Leonard beat better opponents than Duran.
Leonard won the head to head series with Duran.
Leonard even won more WBS titles than Duran, which is a big deal for you except when it works against your guy.
Leonard never lost to a DeJesus type fighter in his prime or to someone like Kirkland Laing.
Leonard was better against common opponents, and it isn't even close.
Leoanrd never quit like a dog like Duran.

Leonard was a better fighter and a better person. Your dad is right.

[fanman]

well, well, what passions.

if you draw a line at durans lightweight reign, he was one of the greatest lightweights of all time, if not the greatest.
i just checked. he won the lw world title at 21 years old!

he then beat one of the best welters of all time in ray leonard.
he then gave one of the best middleweights of all time an unexpectedly close fight.

and he had an incredible fighting style of aggression, but with great infighting and slipping of punches, as well as being able to box all around very well.

ray leonard had similarly great achievements.
they both add an awful lot to each others legacies.

[elmersalsa]

I just had this conversation with my dad about the great Roberto Duran. He never liked Duran, but he always loved the great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I loved both of them, but, I loved The Hands of Stone more than Sugar Ray.

His argument is saying that he could not beat the great and exceptional guys like Marvelous, Thomas Hearns, and Wilfred Benitez.

My argument was that it is VERY HARD to beat an exceptional boxer that is above your weight class. And I gave some examples:

Bob Foster was a destroyer at 175lbs, but, at heavyweight, he couldn't beat nobody.

Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was whupped by the great Carlos Monzon. His answer was that Mantequilla was old. I just laughed.

Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't beat Joey Maxim. He said that Robinson was beating Maxim, but , THE HEAT, THE HEAT, drained him. Still, Maxim won. Robinson NEVER went up to light heavyweight after that.

Dick Tiger was decapitated by Bob Foster.

Salvador Sanchez destroyed Wilfredo Gomez.

Marvelous knocked out The Hitman.

Aaron Pryor beat Alexis Arguello twice.

Did he see the point? I don't know.

He also said that Davey Moore and Iran Barkley weren't great fighters, which is true, but Barkley beat Hearns TWICE and Moore beat Benitez by knockout. He said that Hearns was washed up. But, ain't Duran was washed up when he fought the four of them?

I asked him if Sugar Ray Leonard could have beaten Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad and Dwight Braxton at 175lbs? His response was that is too much of a weight class for Leonard. But, 154lbs and Middleweight classes weren't too much of a weight class for Duran?

I told him that Duran went up 12 pounds to kick Sugar Ray's ass.

I said that is VERY RARE that a guy goes up and dominate another class, especially if the upper class got exceptional boxers.


How many fighters have done that? But, Duran gotta be the exception?

I told him no hard feelings, daddy. I love you. He said that the conversation or argument wasn't going anywhere.

Your thoughts.

Most of your arguements don't go anywhwre becasue you refuse to consider the other person's points.

Duran was not an excpetion moving up in weight to beat a great fighter.

To name a few:
Robinson beat LaMotta while still a welterweight. (Unlike Duran who was a welterweight when he beat Leonard)
Armstrong beat Ross
Greb beat Tunney
Fitzsimmons beat Corbett
Griiffith beat Tiger
Ross beat McLarnin
Canzoneri beat Kid Berg
Oh and Leonard beat Hagler. You always seem to forget about that one.

Most of your example are weak. Bob Foster fighting Ali Frazier is not remotely close to Duran fighting Leonard.
Sanchez beat Gomez because he simply was better.
Tiger was ancient well past it when Foster beat him. (btw Tiger did beat Torres at light heavy)

True Leonard never beat Michael Spinks, or Saad Muhammad or Qawi. Duran scraping by Iran Barkley is hardly comparable.

Your dad was right about Duran losing most of his big fights. He did. In the 5 biggest fights of his career, he went 1-4.

And all you can do is your Duran was always lightweight" crybaby excuses. Tough $hit.

Leonard beat better opponents than Duran.
Leonard won the head to head series with Duran.
Leonard even won more WBS titles than Duran, which is a big deal for you except when it works against your guy.
Leonard never lost to a DeJesus type fighter in his prime or to someone like Kirkland Laing.
Leonard was better against common opponents, and it isn't even close.
Leoanrd never quit like a dog like Duran.

Leonard was a better fighter and a better person. Your dad is right.

You sound like my dad. Truthfully.

The examples that you gave above are less than the other fights when the big guy beats the smaller guy.

I have much more examples when a exceptional boxers that are bigger beat the exceptional boxers that are smaller. And that is LOGICAL.

For starters, Sugar Ray beat Duran, Benitez and Hearns at 147lbs.......SUGAR RAY'S WEIGHT CLASS.

Tell me an exceptional fighter that Sugar Ray Leonard beat above his natural weight 20 pounds over? Tell me one, Alp?

Duran beat better guys 20 to 25 lbs over the lightweight limit than Leonard.

If Duran would have lost to Benitez and Hearns at Welterweight, which is A FAIRER FIGHT, then we can conclude that Leonard, Hearns and Benitez were better fighters than Duran and had better boxing skills. The point is they weren't. Duran fought them at 154 and 160lbs.

Let's play the game of bigger man vs smaller man battles, and I will win. Why because it's LOGICAL that the BIGGER MAN wins most of the time.

What Duran did when he whupped Leonard was INCREDIBLE! No doubt about it.

[Ambling Alp II]

Your dad sounds like he is a lot smarter than you.
Duran Benitez, and Hearns were in Leonard's weight class when they fought. That is a simple fact. All the crybaby excuses in the world doesn't change that.

Leonard never beat an exceptional fighter 20 pounds over his weight class. Neither did Duran.

It's not strange at all for a fighter in the lower weights to move up in weight and be successful. You act like Duran was the only guy whoever did it. Leonard did it. So did Benitez. So did Hearns.

So did Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Charles, Langford, Arguello, Chavez, ,Canzoneri, Fitzsimmons, Griffith, Jofre, Ross, Walker, Pac, Mayweather, De La hoya, Mosley, Jones, Toney etc. The list goes on and on.

You act like Duran was still weighing 135 when he fought these guys . He wasn't.

If a fighters starts in a lower weight class (not talking about a light heavy fighting a guy well over 200) when he young, he will usually naturally grow out of his original weight class. If he is a great fighter, he will adapt to it. It happens all the time.

[Onetimeonly]

Really Elmer, using your 'dad' to bring this up again? You're pretty sick.

[elmersalsa]

Examples of the exceptional boxers that were bigger won the most, Alp:

Carlos Monzon vs Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles
Carlos Monzon vs Emile Griffith (twice)
Marvin Hagler vs Thomas Hearns
Marvin Hagler vs Roberto Duran
Joe Louis vs Billy Conn (twice)
Muhammad Ali vs Bob Foster
Joe Frazier vs Bob Foster
Bob Foster vs Dick Tiger
Kid Gavilan vs Ike Williams (two out of three)
Kid Gavilan vs Beau Jack
Cassius Clay vs Archie Moore
Rocky Marciano vs Archie Moore
Jack Johnson vs Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack Johnson vs Stanley Ketchel
Salvador Sanchez vs Wilfredo Gomez
Wilfredo Gomez vs Carlos Zarate
Alexis Arguello vs Ruben Olivares
Aaron Pryor vs Alexis Arguello
Roy Jones, Jr vs Mike McCallum
Mike Tyson vs Michael Spinks
Georges Carpentier vs Ted "Kid" Lewis
Battling Battalino vs Panama Al Brown
Freddie Miller vs Panama Al Brown
Willie Pep vs Manuel Ortiz
Kid Chocolate vs Fidel La Barba (two out of three)
Ezzard Charles vs Charley Burley (twice)
Gene Fullmer vs Carmen Basilio (twice)
Carmen Basilio vs Ike Williams
Pernell Whitaker vs Azumah Nelson
Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Chavez (you can talk about a draw all you want to, Whitaker won!)
Jack "Kid" Berg vs Kid Chocolate (twice)
Tony Canzoneri vs Kid Chocolate (twice)
Maxie Rosenbloom vs Mickey Walker
Maxie Rosenbloom vs Ted "Kid" Lewis
Maxie Rosenbloom vs Tiger Flowers
Harry Greb vs Mickey Walker
Battling Battalino vs Fidel La Barba
Tommy Loughran vs Mickey Walker
Tommy Loughran vs Harry Greb (one win a piece)
Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Jack Johnson vs Sam Langford
Sam Langford vs Joe Gans
Sugar Ray Robinson vs Carmen Basilio (one win a piece)

There are 43 examples. And that's just counting of fighters that are in the top 100 greatest pound per pound in my view. If I go and look at other records, I will not finish. I am talking about EXCEPTIONAL vs EXCEPTIONAL all time greats of my top 100 list.

Now, Alp count me of the top 100 greatest boxers in your view, how many little men beat the bigger men. You will not count over 20.







,

[elmersalsa]

Really Elmer, using your 'dad' to bring this up again? You're pretty sick.

We were just having a conversation. He likes Sugar Ray. I like both of them.

[elmersalsa]

Your dad sounds like he is a lot smarter than you.
Duran Benitez, and Hearns were in Leonard's weight class when they fought. That is a simple fact. All the crybaby excuses in the world doesn't change that.

Leonard never beat an exceptional fighter 20 pounds over his weight class. Neither did Duran.

It's not strange at all for a fighter in the lower weights to move up in weight and be successful. You act like Duran was the only guy whoever did it. Leonard did it. So did Benitez. So did Hearns.

So did Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Charles, Langford, Arguello, Chavez, ,Canzoneri, Fitzsimmons, Griffith, Jofre, Ross, Walker, Pac, Mayweather, De La hoya, Mosley, Jones, Toney etc. The list goes on and on.

You act like Duran was still weighing 135 when he fought these guys . He wasn't.

If a fighters starts in a lower weight class (not talking about a light heavy fighting a guy well over 200) when he young, he will usually naturally grow out of his original weight class. If he is a great fighter, he will adapt to it. It happens all the time.

Thank you. You ADMITTED that Leonard didn't beat nobody EXCEPTIONAL over 20 pounds north of Welterweight. And that is LOGICAL!

NOW, Duran fought Benitez, Hearns and Marvelous 20 pounds north of lightweight. You see the point?

It is unfair for Sugar Ray to fight exceptional 175pounders, but it's fair for Duran fight exceptional 154pounders. Right?

You're talking like if Marvelous, Benitez and Hearns beat Duran at 147. Are you?

[Onetimeonly]

Really Elmer, using your 'dad' to bring this up again? You're pretty sick.

We were just having a conversation. He likes Sugar Ray. I like both of them.

I know you like your dad and Duran, but you've typed millions of words in this forum on this topic with most of them being the same. It's

[elmersalsa]

Your dad sounds like he is a lot smarter than you.
Duran Benitez, and Hearns were in Leonard's weight class when they fought. That is a simple fact. All the crybaby excuses in the world doesn't change that.

Leonard never beat an exceptional fighter 20 pounds over his weight class. Neither did Duran.

It's not strange at all for a fighter in the lower weights to move up in weight and be successful. You act like Duran was the only guy whoever did it. Leonard did it. So did Benitez. So did Hearns.

So did Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Charles, Langford, Arguello, Chavez, ,Canzoneri, Fitzsimmons, Griffith, Jofre, Ross, Walker, Pac, Mayweather, De La hoya, Mosley, Jones, Toney etc. The list goes on and on.

You act like Duran was still weighing 135 when he fought these guys . He wasn't.

If a fighters starts in a lower weight class (not talking about a light heavy fighting a guy well over 200) when he young, he will usually naturally grow out of his original weight class. If he is a great fighter, he will adapt to it. It happens all the time.

Now of the fighters you mentioned above, only these:
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Harry Greb
Bob Fitzsimmons
Emile Griffith
Mickey Walker

Beat exceptional boxers above their natural weight. When the bigger man was on his prime.

Now you see why Duran's whupping over Sugar Ray was special?

[Onetimeonly]

Langford beat atg fighters from lightweight to heavyweight and he doesn't count? You're ridiculous.

[Controversial]

People forget too that Duran was ahead on two cards against Hagler and even on the other after 13 rounds,

Do they? That's usually the first thing I hear about the fight. What people forget is that scoring was highly favorable to Duran.

I meant to the more casual fan, at the end of the day the judges made the right decision as they had Hagler winning by UD.

[elmersalsa]

Langford beat atg fighters from lightweight to heavyweight and he doesn't count? You're ridiculous.

Name me one all time great of the top 100 in your view that the great Sam Langford beat and had to go to that guy's weight class?

I found that Langford lost to the great Jack Johnson. That's logical. Johnson was bigger, but that doesn't mean he was better.

[Onetimeonly]

Langford beat atg fighters from lightweight to heavyweight and he doesn't count? You're ridiculous.

Name me one all time great of the top 100 in your view that the great Sam Langford beat and had to go to that guy's weight class?

I found that Langford lost to the great Jack Johnson. That's logical. Johnson was bigger, but that doesn't mean he was better.

I hate to break it to you, this sport is full of great fighters that didn't make the prestigious Elmo 100. This should be easy, even for you. Langford beat gans and wills. That's like Duran beating Norton. The guy you think beat the greatest 3 times.