My Daddy Doesn't Like the Great Roberto Duran, but Loves the Great Sugar Ray Leonard

[Onetimeonly]

there's like 5 people that browse that subforum

Lol, that's what cracked me up about the complaints on mythical match ups. I'm over them myself having giving my opinion on just about every conceivable bout, but without them we have Elmer starting a Duran/Leonard thread, his take is certainly refreshing but it will be on the front page for a year.

[Onetimeonly]

I skipped from lightweight to heavy. Duran was bigger than all the lightweights he beat. Don't you ever get sick of being a hypocrite?

He never does. He never gets it.
He wants to count light heavyweights who are severely outweighed by heavyweights at the time of the fight.
However, he want to throw out Duran's losses when Duran himself weighed about the same as his opponent. (He acts like Duran still weighed 1235 for these fights)

He wants to count fights where Fitzsimmons was 44, McAllum was almost 40, Tiger was 37.
However, Duran was tool old when he lost to Benitez and the legendary Laing. Duran was 30 when he lost to Benitez, 31 to Laing.

He thinks he has a smoking gun for argument for Duran being better than Leonard by saying that Davey Moore and Donny Lalonde.

He pretends like Leonard didn't beat Duran.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
Now he is saying that Harry Wills is not a great fighter? Come on. Probably because it doesn't fit his current argument about Langford.
He never seems to get why so many people don't take him seriously.

I think he's the most bizarre poster I've ever encountered.

[Duran1970]

And again, YOU MISSED THE DOGGONE POINT.

First, you know well that Duran at 154lbs was not convincing enough. He struggled with NOBODIES like Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez at 154. He looked so bad that even some boxing experts were saying that the fire was gone. Welterweight and Jr middleweight is 7 pounds over. Or you just don't know that, or you just want to be ignorant about it? Which one is it?

Second, you know damn well that his fights with Benitez and Hearns were not a Welterweight. Leonard beat all of them at 147. Oh! But somehow, Leonard is better than Duran? Duran didn't fight them at 147. Or did he? You know the answer.

Third, if Benitez and Hearns would have beaten Duran at 147 at least, then you can clearly say that Leonard was better. Even though Duran jumped to 12 pounds and the speed was not the same as in Lightweight, but still, his speed at Welterweight was fair enough to judge the fights. But, at 154? Where you know damn well that is 20lbs north of Lightweight, in his 30s and looked FAT, LETHARGIC, and SLOW while Hearns and Benitez looked COMFORTABLE at that weight, YOU KNOW FOR A FACT YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR, BUT OUTRAGEOUSLY BIASED. That's like Sugar Ray going 20pounds over to fight guys like Matthew Saad Muhammad, Michael Spinks, Marvin Johnson and Dwight Muhammad Qawi. Would Leonard beat those guys? No! Absolutely not! They are or were too big! Sugar STRUGGLED with a BUM called Donny Lalonde. How he is going to beat the Spinks and the Muhammads?

Fourth, sorry, I shouldn't called Lalonde a bum. He is YOUR FRIEND. I APOLOGISE. Even at that, Lalonde had to drop 7 pounds to fight Sugar Ray. And he almost beat Sugar Ray. Some guys are comfortable at other weight class. That's according to their frame. Hearns' frame was tall enough to go all the way to cruiserweight. But, did he looked as good as he did in Welterweight and Jr middleweight? No! He didn't.

My question is: did Benitez and Hearns beat Duran at 147lbs? You don't have to answer. I am aware that my point is getting across to others that read my posts.
Thanks.
.

And you have missed every doggone point that people had made to to for the last 15 years. You never think, never use you brain. Never actually consider what other people are saying.

You keep saying that Leonard fighting light-heavyweights would be the same as Duran fighting at 154. Well, light heavyweight is 28 pounds and four weight classes above 147.
154 is only 3 weight classes and 19 pounds heavier than 135.
So Leonard would have to fight someone at 168 which is 3 weight classes and 21 pounds "North" of 147. . Who was he supposed to beat there that would have meant anything?


No reason that Duran could not have been more successful at 154. He gradually bulked up, like a zillion other guys.
It's not like he fought at 135 one fight and then 154 the next. He did it gradually over a period of several years.
Yet you have no problem counting Ketchel losing to Johnson when he was outweighed by 30 pounds. Or Conn to use Louis.

And Lalonde didn't almost beat Leonard. He scored a knockdown. Leonard dominated most of the rest of the fight before stopping him. It wasn't like he got a dubious decision, like say Duran got against Barkley.

Your hypocrisy knows no end. you have excuses for Duran at 154. However you made crap out of De La Hoya (whom you don't like) when he lost to Hopkins at 160.

There was nothing"dubious" about the Duran Barkley decision...gimme a f'n break.

[Onetimeonly]

Yeah, that's ridiculous. Close war, but nothing dubious about it. Leonard/hearns 2 was dubious.

[elmersalsa]

See, the Problem with Ambling Alp in these discussions is that, first, he doesn't like Duran.

Second, HIS ASSESSMENTS, about Duran losing to Hearns, Benitez and Hagler but Sugar Ray beating them was that Leonard beat Benitez and Hearns at 147lbs

But HE DOESN'T GET THE POINT that Duran didn't fight them at 147. He fought them at 154. A division 20lbs north of Lightweight.

If anyone thinks that because he beat those guys and Duran didn't that Sugar Ray was better, IS NOT GIVING A FAIR ASSESSMENT AT ALL.

IS not a smart assessment by any means.

Thanks.

I love Duran, in my top 5 or 6 all-time favorites and you're ridiculous. Trying to shoot down wills as a great win for a former lightweight. Are you laughing when you post that garbage? I got news for you too, Duran's absolute peak was at welter. Dejesus 3 was the only fight at 35 where he looked as good as he did against palomino and Leonard. I really don't know why I bother conversing with you. It's just that you know the fighters and have watched the fights but you're so hypocritical, biased and stubborn that you're an imbecile. Have you ever mentioned Leonard's Olympic gold medal? Or does that only factor in for the great pascual Perez?

The conversation wasn't with you.

If I'm an imbecile, then you're an ASSHOLE. THANKS.

[elmersalsa]

And again, YOU MISSED THE DOGGONE POINT.

First, you know well that Duran at 154lbs was not convincing enough. He struggled with NOBODIES like Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez at 154. He looked so bad that even some boxing experts were saying that the fire was gone. Welterweight and Jr middleweight is 7 pounds over. Or you just don't know that, or you just want to be ignorant about it? Which one is it?

Second, you know damn well that his fights with Benitez and Hearns were not a Welterweight. Leonard beat all of them at 147. Oh! But somehow, Leonard is better than Duran? Duran didn't fight them at 147. Or did he? You know the answer.

Third, if Benitez and Hearns would have beaten Duran at 147 at least, then you can clearly say that Leonard was better. Even though Duran jumped to 12 pounds and the speed was not the same as in Lightweight, but still, his speed at Welterweight was fair enough to judge the fights. But, at 154? Where you know damn well that is 20lbs north of Lightweight, in his 30s and looked FAT, LETHARGIC, and SLOW while Hearns and Benitez looked COMFORTABLE at that weight, YOU KNOW FOR A FACT YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR, BUT OUTRAGEOUSLY BIASED. That's like Sugar Ray going 20pounds over to fight guys like Matthew Saad Muhammad, Michael Spinks, Marvin Johnson and Dwight Muhammad Qawi. Would Leonard beat those guys? No! Absolutely not! They are or were too big! Sugar STRUGGLED with a BUM called Donny Lalonde. How he is going to beat the Spinks and the Muhammads?

Fourth, sorry, I shouldn't called Lalonde a bum. He is YOUR FRIEND. I APOLOGISE. Even at that, Lalonde had to drop 7 pounds to fight Sugar Ray. And he almost beat Sugar Ray. Some guys are comfortable at other weight class. That's according to their frame. Hearns' frame was tall enough to go all the way to cruiserweight. But, did he looked as good as he did in Welterweight and Jr middleweight? No! He didn't.

My question is: did Benitez and Hearns beat Duran at 147lbs? You don't have to answer. I am aware that my point is getting across to others that read my posts.
Thanks.
.

And you have missed every doggone point that people had made to to for the last 15 years. You never think, never use you brain. Never actually consider what other people are saying.

You keep saying that Leonard fighting light-heavyweights would be the same as Duran fighting at 154. Well, light heavyweight is 28 pounds and four weight classes above 147.
154 is only 3 weight classes and 19 pounds heavier than 135.
So Leonard would have to fight someone at 168 which is 3 weight classes and 21 pounds "North" of 147. . Who was he supposed to beat there that would have meant anything?


No reason that Duran could not have been more successful at 154. He gradually bulked up, like a zillion other guys.
It's not like he fought at 135 one fight and then 154 the next. He did it gradually over a period of several years.
Yet you have no problem counting Ketchel losing to Johnson when he was outweighed by 30 pounds. Or Conn to use Louis.

And Lalonde didn't almost beat Leonard. He scored a knockdown. Leonard dominated most of the rest of the fight before stopping him. It wasn't like he got a dubious decision, like say Duran got against Barkley.

Your hypocrisy knows no end. you have excuses for Duran at 154. However you made crap out of De La Hoya (whom you don't like) when he lost to Hopkins at 160.

You're talking like if Duran had the same foot and hand speed at 154lbs as in Welterweight when his 5'7" frame indicated that he was SLUGGISHLY SLOW at that weight and beyond.

I asked you if Duran fought Benitez and Hearns at 147? You know the answer.

Did Leonard beat those guys at 154lbs or at Welterweight, which was his best class?

How could that be a convincing assessment when the fighters fought at different weight classes. I could understand if Duran lost to them at 147. Then, Sugar Ray should be better.

No matter how many years Duran fought at 154 or beyond, the weigh class was not his.

And again, 20pounds north of Welterweight is light-heavyweight in those days. The great Billy Conn weigh in at 168lbs when he challenged for the heavyweight crown. So, Sugar Ray at 168lbs in the 70s decade and before that would have been a light-heavyweight, not super middleweight.

I have never said nothing about Oscar De La Hoya. What Oscar got to do in the conversation?

The REASON I put Ketchel vs Johnson was a list of exceptional greats fighting other greats in bigger classes and that MOST OF THE TIME the BIGGER MAN wins. That's nature. That's LOGICAL. It wasn't a fair fight. Neither Hearns vs Duran, Hagler vs Duran, nor Louis vs Conn.

[oogiebe]

Another thread turned to crap.

[Onetimeonly]

I love Duran, in my top 5 or 6 all-time favorites and you're ridiculous. Trying to shoot down wills as a great win for a former lightweight. Are you laughing when you post that garbage? I got news for you too, Duran's absolute peak was at welter. Dejesus 3 was the only fight at 35 where he looked as good as he did against palomino and Leonard. I really don't know why I bother conversing with you. It's just that you know the fighters and have watched the fights but you're so hypocritical, biased and stubborn that you're an imbecile. Have you ever mentioned Leonard's Olympic gold medal? Or does that only factor in for the great pascual Perez?

The conversation wasn't with you.

If I'm an imbecile, then you're an ASSHOLE. THANKS.

Id rather be an asshole than an idiot. Seriously, Elmer, a guy that started at lightweight beat McVey, Jeanette & wills at heavyweight. The first two many times and you're questioning his move up in weight. If you really believe that, imbecile is too flattering a moniker for you.

[Onetimeonly]

Another thread turned to crap.

It started as crap.

[oogiebe]

Another thread turned to crap.

It started as crap.

I was being nice.

[elmersalsa]

The conversation wasn't with you.

If I'm an imbecile, then you're an ASSHOLE. THANKS.

Id rather be an asshole than an idiot. Seriously, Elmer, a guy that started at lightweight beat McVey, Jeanette & wills at heavyweight. The first two many times and you're questioning his move up in weight. If you really believe that, imbecile is too flattering a moniker for you.

You are an Asshole=idiot. But, then again. I shouldn't answer a fool according to his folly.

Sam McVey, Joe Jeannette nor Harry Wills were considered all time top pound per pounders. They are almost in the same class or category of Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Marvin Johnson at light-heavyweight. Which I don't see them at the pound per pound category, either.

If you say that they are or were pound per pound 100 greats, that's for another debate.

But, I asked you about to school me about Harry Wills. What has he done to be considered a top 100 all time pound per pound great? If he's great in your eyes, then Iran Barkley that beat the great Tommy Hearns should be a top 100 pound per pound great? School me, asshole!

[elmersalsa]

It started as crap.

I was being nice.

Ain't we talking about boxing? What is the fuzz about the conversation or topic, oogiebe?

[Onetimeonly]

I've schooled you a million times. You refuse to back off of your dumb ass statements. All you need to know about Harry wills is he would have kicked Duran's ass. As I already told you, there has been more than 100 great fighters in this sport. Even with your obsession there, nobody would be out of line putting mcvey, Jeanette, wills, Norfolk, ketchel, flowers, etc.. on their list. Nobody has ever been more wrong than you are, and you already were the leader in the clubhouse with eusebio pedroza, another fighter I was a fan of, was the most complete fighter you've ever seen!

[Onetimeonly]

I was being nice.

Ain't we talking about boxing? What is the fuzz about the conversation or topic, oogiebe?

You're just regurgitating the same argument you've had with alp for 20 years. You're dad deserves better and he would be ashamed.

[oogiebe]

I was being nice.

Ain't we talking about boxing? What is the fuzz about the conversation or topic, oogiebe?

Crap might be a little harsh. I just feel like we've seen this argument of yours time and time again. I can appreciate sharing a convo with your dad, but the topic is a bit old now. The decent into the back and forth with you and Alp was the real turn-off.

[elmersalsa]

I've schooled you a million times. You refuse to back off of your dumb ass statements. All you need to know about Harry wills is he would have kicked Duran's ass. As I already told you, there has been more than 100 great fighters in this sport. Even with your obsession there, nobody would be out of line putting mcvey, Jeanette, wills, Norfolk, ketchel, flowers, etc.. on their list. Nobody has ever been more wrong than you are, and you already were the leader in the clubhouse with eusebio pedroza, another fighter I was a fan of, was the most complete fighter you've ever seen!

School me some more, then. You are the expert.

You haven't told me nothing that I don't know to begin with. Your sarcasm doesn't scare one bit. You called me a name like "imbecile", then I will call you an "asshole". Simple as that.

Once a person starts calling someone one names, to me, he lost his mind and argument. I'm not frustrated one bit of what your opinions about me. Who the fuuuck are you, moron?

For years, you have been an asshole in this forum. For years! You are the Asshole of the Year award every year at boxrec. You don't respect nobody. It's easy to write behind the keyboard and say things like a bitch.

That Harry Wills would have kicked Duran's ass? Do I care about that? Of course he would. That's LOGICAL. We're talking about logical things.

Now, when I have said that the great Eusebio Pedroza was more and a better complete fighter than the great Sugar Ray Robinson, is my damn opinion. What makes the reverse statement true? Because a bunch of American writers say that Robinson was the most complete fighter? I don't buy that nonsense. How can a guy like Robinson that cannot fight inside should be the most complete fighter ever? I don't even think that in accomplishments he was the best ever. As a matter of fact, I can name 10 fighters in my view that were MORE COMPLETE than Robinson, and Pedroza was one of them.

And again, school me about Harry Wills, without calling names. You keep on, and I will keep on. You ain't gonna disrespect me. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. You want to keep going, asshole?

[elmersalsa]

Ain't we talking about boxing? What is the fuzz about the conversation or topic, oogiebe?

You're just regurgitating the same argument you've had with alp for 20 years. You're dad deserves better and he would be ashamed.

That doesn't make Ambling Alp or me any less wrong or right. That's what the forum is all about. To talk about boxing.

[Onetimeonly]

I've schooled you a million times. You refuse to back off of your dumb ass statements. All you need to know about Harry wills is he would have kicked Duran's ass. As I already told you, there has been more than 100 great fighters in this sport. Even with your obsession there, nobody would be out of line putting mcvey, Jeanette, wills, Norfolk, ketchel, flowers, etc.. on their list. Nobody has ever been more wrong than you are, and you already were the leader in the clubhouse with eusebio pedroza, another fighter I was a fan of, was the most complete fighter you've ever seen!

School me some more, then. You are the expert.

You haven't told me nothing that I don't know to begin with. Your sarcasm doesn't scare one bit. You called me a name like "imbecile", then I will call you an "asshole". Simple as that.

Once a person starts calling someone one names, to me, he lost his mind and argument. I'm not frustrated one bit of what your opinions about me. Who the fuuuck are you, moron?

For years, you have been an asshole in this forum. For years! You are the Asshole of the Year award every year at boxrec. You don't respect nobody. It's easy to write behind the keyboard and say things like a bitch.

That Harry Wills would have kicked Duran's ass? Do I care about that? Of course he would. That's LOGICAL. We're talking about logical things.

Now, when I have said that the great Eusebio Pedroza was more and a better complete fighter than the great Sugar Ray Robinson, is my damn opinion. What makes the reverse statement true? Because a bunch of American writers say that Robinson was the most complete fighter? I don't buy that nonsense. How can a guy like Robinson that cannot fight inside should be the most complete fighter ever? I don't even think that in accomplishments he was the best ever. As a matter of fact, I can name 10 fighters in my view that were MORE COMPLETE than Robinson, and Pedroza was one of them.

And again, school me about Harry Wills, without calling names. You keep on, and I will keep on. You ain't gonna disrespect me. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. You want to keep going, asshole?

[elmersalsa]

School me some more, then. You are the expert.

You haven't told me nothing that I don't know to begin with. Your sarcasm doesn't scare one bit. You called me a name like "imbecile", then I will call you an "asshole". Simple as that.

Once a person starts calling someone one names, to me, he lost his mind and argument. I'm not frustrated one bit of what your opinions about me. Who the fuuuck are you, moron?

For years, you have been an asshole in this forum. For years! You are the Asshole of the Year award every year at boxrec. You don't respect nobody. It's easy to write behind the keyboard and say things like a bitch.

That Harry Wills would have kicked Duran's ass? Do I care about that? Of course he would. That's LOGICAL. We're talking about logical things.

Now, when I have said that the great Eusebio Pedroza was more and a better complete fighter than the great Sugar Ray Robinson, is my damn opinion. What makes the reverse statement true? Because a bunch of American writers say that Robinson was the most complete fighter? I don't buy that nonsense. How can a guy like Robinson that cannot fight inside should be the most complete fighter ever? I don't even think that in accomplishments he was the best ever. As a matter of fact, I can name 10 fighters in my view that were MORE COMPLETE than Robinson, and Pedroza was one of them.

And again, school me about Harry Wills, without calling names. You keep on, and I will keep on. You ain't gonna disrespect me. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. You want to keep going, asshole?