Sugar Ray Robinson's comments on Charley Burley

[Chuck1052]

I tend to believe that Sugar Ray Robinson was a better pound-for-pound fighter than Charley Burley. Robinson was a much more consistent fighter, losing only one bout during the 1940s. That loss was to Jake LaMotta, a truly great middleweight who had a large weight advantage over Robinson.

The assertion that Robinson was a protected fighter isn't supported by the facts. In fact, Robinson was facing top competition within a short time after becoming a professional boxer and continued to do so throughout his career. In regards to him not facing the so-called Murderers Row fighters, Robinson was in a much different league as a gate attraction during much of the 1940s. As a result, it would have been a huge financial risk for a promoter to stage a bout between Robinson and a member of Murderer's Row. Having Robinson fighting someone like LaMotta was a far smaller financial risk.

While being a truly great fighter with a lot of boxing skill and good punching power, Burley had dull fighting style and didn't have a colorful personality. I have already written about the lack of drawing power that Burley had. But while reading reports of Burley's bouts, I found that he had a very large number of them which were considered boring. Robinson was a far more exciting fighter and had much more charisma than Burley. LaMotta himself may have been a flawed human being, but he rarely had a boring bout. Unfortunately for Burley, professional boxing has always been a business.

- Chuck Johnston

[Cojimar 1946]

Anyway, I would agree that Burley is probably overrated to an extent today. People argue over the injustice of him not getting a title shot which I agree with but by the same token I would say Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall were at least as deserving if not more and they seem to get less mention.

An overall lb for lb ranking of the black murderers row members along with Moore and Charles who fought some of them would probably be as follows.

(1)Ezzard Charles
(2)Eddie Booker
(3)Archie Moore
(4)Lloyd Marshall
(5)Jimmy Bivins
(6)Holman Williams
(7)Charley Burley
(8)Jack Chase
(9)Bert Lytell
(10)Cocoa Kid

Burley should be above Williams. They were 3-3-1 nc but the nc Burley was ahead and it was an impulsive ref who just stopped the fight in the last round because he didn't like the action. Sure, Burley lost to Marshall (who he was also smaller than) but he washed Moore, who beat Marshall twice and beat a number of guys Marshall lost to as well. Chase was 1-1-1 vs. Marshall but 0-3 vs. Burley.

Of the fighters considered "Murderers Row" in Springs Toledo's book (Burley, Marshall, Booker, Williams, Wade, Lytell, Chase, Cocoa) I believe it was Burley who had the best head-to-head overall. Something like 11-5-2 whereas I think Marshall was something like 3-4-1 and Williams was something like 3-8-1 vs. Cocoa Kid. If I'm not mistaken I believe Lytell and Booker had the 2nd and 3rd best records.

Of those fighters Burley couldn't be any less than fourth IMO. I'd personally place him as the #1 of the fighters in Toledo's book and #3 of the fighters you mentioned.

Burley over Williams could certainly be argued. I think Lloyd Marshall should probably rank higher based on resume depth. In addition to the murderers row group he also has wins over Ken Overlin, Jake LaMotta, and Joey Maxim to name a few. The win over Ezzard Charles also seems like it helps his case.

I think Jimmy Bivins may be underrated due to frequently being assessed at heavyweight. I think he rates higher at light heavyweight/middleweight at least H2H

[goose 5]

Would Burley top the list of the most boring fighters ever ?

[Ambling Alp II]

No.

[Chuck1052]

John Ruiz ranks high on my list of the most boring fighters ever. As far as I concerned, any referee should have disqualified Ruiz in short order any time he employed his usual fighting style.

- Chuck Johnston

[goose 5]

Ruiz had an awful style but he made plenty of money and was champ. Burley's era must have been different.

[Ambling Alp II]

He was a WBS title holder. He was never a real champ. You would be hard pressed to find a fighter who got more breaks in the sport than him.

[Chuck1052]

He was a WBS title holder. He was never a real champ. You would be hard pressed to find a fighter who got more breaks in the sport than him.

For once, I agree with you.

- Chuck Johnston

[Ambling Alp II]

For once! I agree with you a lot!

[Chuck1052]

I found that Tommy O'Loughlin essentially quit promoting boxing shows at the Armory in Minneapolis after his last one, which featured a rematch between Fritzie Zivic and Reuben Shank, on June 4, 1942. There weren't any professional boxing shows staged in Minneapolis from June 4, 1942 to the beginning of 1944. Afterwards, Joe Stecher promoted professional boxing shows at the Auditorium with Jackie Graves being the main gate attraction.

During 1942, O'Loughlin promoted eight boxing shows at the Armory. Charley Burley fought on six of those shows. Zivic and Shank fought in the main events of the two remaining shows. Burley fought in his first show at the Armory on December 12, 1941, the only one that he had at the venue that year. As I noted in previous posts on this forum, the gates were generally dismal for the shows that featured Burley at the Armory. But the two shows featuring bouts between Zivic and Shank also had relatively dismal gates.

As a promoter of boxing shows at the Armory, O'Loughlin probably used Bobby Eaton, the listed manager of Burley for a time, as a front to get around the conflict of interest rules. But according to items found in a number of Pittsburgh newspapers during the first half of 1942, O'Loughlin was the manager of Burley. Of course, Pennsylvania is located outside of Minnesota.

- Chuck Johnston

[Chuck1052]

I found the following for Charley Burley's bouts at the Armory in Minneapolis during 1941 and 1942:

Dec. 13, 1941- Burley stopped Ted Morrison in two rounds after toying with him in the first round and knocking him down multiple times in the second. The gate was "about $1,100. "The promoter didn't make any money."

Jan. 9, 1942- Burley knocked out Shorty Hogue in the 10th round. Hogue had a 12-pound advantage and made it tough for Burley at times, but Burley still battered Hogue much of the time. During the 10th round, Burley knocked Hogue down twice, the second time for the count. The attendance was 2,000 while the gate was $1,400. Note- According to Harry Otty's book, The Tragedy of the Hogue Twins, Shorty Hogue was guaranteed $1,300. for his bout with Burley.

Jan. 23, 1942- Burley won by a technical knockout over Jackie Burke in the 5th round. Burke took a beating and was floor six times, including three times in the fifth before Referee Wilbur Palm stopped the bout. A "small crowd" was in attendance. The gate was "less than $1,000."

Feb. 26, 1942- Burley won a decision in a 10-round bout with Holman Williams. Williams took a beating to the body during the bout. Burley got to a good start with Williams getting back in the contest during the middle rounds. But Burley went back ahead when he landed "a hard right to the kidney" in the 8th and "another barrage of body punches" in the 9th. The net gate was $1,500.

March 13, 1942- Burley stopped Jay Turner at the beginning of the 7th round. Outweighed by 70 pounds, Burley used his left jab repeatedly, leaping in to do so. Turner landed hardly a punch and had a cut inside his mouth. His corner didn't allow him to come out for the 7th round. The doctor said that Turner could have continued, which was taken into account by the commission when they suspended Turner for 60 days. But the suspension was essentially moot because Turner intended to enter the army on Monday.

April 10, 1942- Burley knocked out Cleo McNeal at 47 seconds of the 5th round. Taking a real beating during the bout, McNeal was knocked down twice in the second round, twice in the 4th and once in the fifth. On the undercard, Reuben Shank won "a hard-earned victory" over Johnny Roszina with Shank receiving applause. The gate was less than $1,000.

April 30, 1942- Burley knocked out Sammy Wilson at 1 minute, 33 seconds of the first round. Wilson, a 1941 Chicago Gold Glove champion, was knocked down three times in the 1st round and was knocked out "with a terrific right" in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson knocked out Dick Banner at 32 seconds of the 2nd round. In the 1st round, Robinson started out landing left jabs to Banner's face. Banner rushed out at the start of the second round, but walked into a long right uppercut that knocked him out. Reuben Shank won by a technical knockout over Bobby Berger when the referee stopped the bout in the 5th round. As far as the fans were concerned, Robinson stole the show. The attendance was about 5,000 while the gate was $3, 416.22.

- Chuck Johnston

[Chuck1052]

Besides Charley Burley, Tommy O'Loughlin also managed three heavyweights: Elmer "Violent" Ray, Clayton Worlds and Paul Hartnek during the 1940s.

The hard-punching Ray eventually became a contender and had wins over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles by split-decisions. But he lost in rematches with both Walcott and Charles.

A black boxer from Chicago at 6 feet, 6 inches or 6 feet, 5 inches in height, Worlds was was known as "Skyscraper." Before becoming a pro boxer, he won the Open Chicago Tribune Golden Gloves championship in the heavyweight division and represented Chicago in the Intercity Golden Gloves championship in the heavyweight division, all during 1941. Worlds went on to be a pro boxer from 1942 to 1946. In a total of 33 pro bouts, he had 18 wins (2 by knockout), 12 losses (1 by knockout) and 3 draws. Among the fighters that Worlds faced were Joe Muscato, Pat Comiskey, Turkey Thompson, Tiger Jack Fox and Lee Q. Murray,, In his knockout loss, Worlds had "a comfortable lead" going into the 9th round in a bout with Murray. But Murray "opened up" in the 9th round, cornered Worlds and put him down for the count, although it appeared that World went down due to exhaustion.

Especially for a heavyweight, Worlds appeared to have an astounding lack of punching power with only two stoppage wins to his credit. Could that have been one reason that he was pro boxer for only four years? But with only one stoppage loss on his record, Worlds seemed to take a punch quite well.

After having quite a bit of success as an amateur boxer, notably in the Golden Gloves, Paul Hartnek was a pro boxer from 1937 to 1945. In a total of 64 pro bouts, he had 38 wins (13 by knockout), 20 losses (11 by knockout) and 6 draws. Among the fighters he faced were Frank Rowsey, Gunnar Barlund, Carl Vinciquerra, Steve Dudas, Johnny Paychek, Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Eddie Booker, Rusty Payne, Lou Nova, Ken Overlin and Joe Kahut.

Needless to say, Burley was a far better fighter than Ray, Worlds or Hartnek. But all three heavyweights had bouts at certain venues in which Burley never had a bout.

- Chuck Johnston

[goose 5]

I found this information the other day: On December 8, 1945, The Pittsburgh Courier reported that The Dapper Dan Club offered Robinson $25,000 to fight Burley in 1945 and Robinson turned it down. The same article said that Robinson had rejected a previous offer of $17,500-made by the same club- to fight Burley.

[goose 5]

August 25, 1945, New Pittsburgh Courier reported that matchmaker Jake Mintz of the Rooney-Mcginley Boxing Club offered Robinson $25,000 to fight Burley in September at Forbes Field. George Gainsford accepted the offer but, 3 days later, Robinson demanded $50,000. Mintz said he then made a replacement bout between Ike Williams and Sammy Angott.