hagler/hearns/leonard/duran: who was truly the best?

[Seamus]

Leonard is number 1. Number 2 is between Duran and Hearns.

[ewenhay]

Which all proves how difficult it is to split them on an all time basis

[bigjack]

that might be true, but leonard beat duran at welterweight, hagler at middleweight, and hearns at super middle, so the overall greatest of the four is probably leonard

Did he ?

[oogiebe]

that might be true, but leonard beat duran at welterweight, hagler at middleweight, and hearns at super middle, so the overall greatest of the four is probably leonard

Did he ?

Wasn't that a draw?

[Onetimeonly]

Leonard definitely didn't win. Lol

[oogiebe]

Leonard definitely didn't win. Lol

He certainly lost the fight, but the decision was a draw. The other poster said he won at SMW. Um...nope.

[Onetimeonly]

Yeah, I read it, that triggered my response.

[Duran1970]

Leonard is fourth? Really?

Yep

[BoxBuzz]

Pound for pound it would be Duran

[bigjack]

Did he ?

Wasn't that a draw?

Yes i was there.

[Ambling Alp II]

Pound for pound it would be Duran

Nope it was Leonard. Duran didn't weight 135 when he lost all those fights. And you can't have an excuse for all of them.

Leonard won the head to head, was much better against common opponents, beat better competition, didn't lose fights he should have.
i.e. Leonard was better in everything that matters.
If you substituted the name Smith for Leonard, and Jones for Duran and reviewed their careers, almost everyone would say Smith (Leonard) was better.

[gilgamesh]

Leonard definitely didn't win. Lol

He certainly lost the fight, but the decision was a draw. The other poster said he won at SMW. Um...nope.

I had it 114-112 Tommy when I watched it. Good fight, but Leonard never quite overcame the 2 knockdowns.

I felt like Leonard vs Hagler was a draw too.

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard is fourth? Really?

Yep

Love to hear why.

[BoxBuzz]

Pound for pound it would be Duran

Nope it was Leonard. Duran didn't weight 135 when he lost all those fights. And you can't have an excuse for all of them.

Leonard won the head to head, was much better against common opponents, beat better competition, didn't lose fights he should have.
i.e. Leonard was better in everything that matters.
If you substituted the name Smith for Leonard, and Jones for Duran and reviewed their careers, almost everyone would say Smith (Leonard) was better.

Nope it was Duran.
The fighter that beat SRL when both were at their best. (If you think Duran was as good a fighter in his second appearance as he was in the his first go-round, I think you should perhaps consider a recalculation). Just because SRL was more cerebral, did not make him "better" overall. For me these are two different categories.. And I understand that this mincing of words is quite subjective. But Duran was a bit smaller, and stepped up, and beat SRL where they were both at their best.

Now....SRL was much smarter at guiding his career, and is an absolute stellar talent. But all things being equal, I think Duran was more gifted pound for pound.

And what I say goes.

......Unless of course someone happens to see it differently.

In which case it still goes, but not quite as far.

[Ambling Alp II]

What makes Leonard at this best in the first fight, but Duran not at his best in the rematch: the tummy ache?

Duran was a welterweight when he fought Leonard. Enough of the "forever a lightweight". The great majority of non-heavyweights move up in weight. It's been proven over and over and over that it's not a big deal.

Wasn't Duran at his best when he lost to the great Esteban DeJesus?

Even if you buy at their best line; you have to consider more than that.

TKO8 trumps winning by a decision.
Leonard beat Benitez. Duran lost to him. (I know, there has to b a crybaby excuse for Duran. There always is)

With Leonard, you don't have to be so creative with the excuses.

[Duran1970]

Yep

Love to hear why.

No. You don't.

[Ambling Alp II]

I take it you don't have anything new. Probably the same crybaby excuses for his opponents that have been recycled for years.

[Duran1970]

Im not gonna play into your shit Alp, it's been done to death..you believe Leonards the best so be it, it's your opinion....when others bring up valid truths facts events you say they're wrong just because you disagree..show's your unable to have a mature discussion

[Ambling Alp II]

The facts are if we judge their careers like we judge anyone elses' (things like head to head, common opponents, best wins, vs embarrassing losses etc.) then Leonard comes out on top. It's not rocket science.

However, with Leonard, people start bringing up excuses for his opponents that we almost never hear with anyone else.

Duran and the tummy ache, he gained 70 pounds or whatever and then had to lose it. Was always a lightweight.
Benitez didn't train enough.
Hearns didn't weigh enough.
The ring was too big against Hagler. If it was 15 rounds, Hagler would have won. etc.

We never hear this kind of crap with hardly anyone else.

Being mature is using the same criteria all the time. Not grasping at straws when it helps your guy.

[BoxBuzz]

The facts are if we judge their careers like we judge anyone elses' (things like head to head, common opponents, best wins, vs embarrassing losses etc.) then Leonard comes out on top. It's not rocket science.

However, with Leonard, people start bringing up excuses for his opponents that we almost never hear with anyone else.

Duran and the tummy ache, he gained 70 pounds or whatever and then had to lose it. Was always a lightweight.
Benitez didn't train enough.
Hearns didn't weigh enough.
The ring was too big against Hagler. If it was 15 rounds, Hagler would have won. etc.

We never hear this kind of crap with hardly anyone else.

Being mature is using the same criteria all the time. Not grasping at straws when it helps your guy.

Ray's career was simply managed better. He was more thoughtful, less impulsive, and had an upbringing that gave him a bit of an advantage in the planning and executing dept. He had what you could legitamately call a better career.

Perhaps some would say Aaron Pryor is better than both of them. I mean he only lost once, and then just stopped. I suppose if Aaron hadn't fought that last fight, he's the GOAT.

I'm havin' some fun here. But Duran was the smaller guy, and was more dominant in his weight class. Some would say he gave Marvin a better fight than SRL did. But SRL was very clever and managed the win, by managing the fight and the judges in a nearly genius fashion. Nothing wrong with that by the way. A win is a win. But I do see a difference whereas you do not.



And that's diversity, and we should always honor diversity.

[BoxBuzz]

oh......and SRL didn't ALWAYS do better against the same opposition.

I mean his fight against Camacho was superior to SRL's . And you shouldn't comment on this...otherwise it's going to be looked at as an excuse. And SRL needs none of those.

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard's career was managed better? How so?
Had the advantage of a upbringing? You mean he won the Gold medal (I guess they and those out to just anyone) and then actually beat top contenders before fighting for the title?
Not sure what Arron Pryor has to do with anything.

Duran was more dominant in the lightweight division than Leonard was in the welterweight division. I agree, so what? His competition at lightweight was a joke compared to Leonard's at welter.

Always love the smaller man crap. They weighed the same for the fight. Duran had more fights above 135 than Leonard had fights.

Duran gave Hagler a better fight? Well I guess there are idiots out there that would say that. Would you? Leonard beat him. Duran didn't.

Managing the judges? I see the difference. Leonard was good enough to actually win. Which is what counts.

As for Camacho, yes Duran came closer to beating Camacho. Obviously Leonard was off for 5 years before that fight. You are trying to be clever and say well that's an excuse. Pat yourself on the back for that one.

Well you know damn well that it's not the same thing as Durans' excuses. I would not count that fight for anybody. We don't use the crybaby excuses for anyone else but Leonard's opponents.


Not sure what the diversity line was supposed to mean that you danced away with.

[Onetimeonly]

The only pathetic Leonard excuse was he fought the wrong fight in Montreal. He had no choice.

[Ambling Alp II]

That's what that saad guy always said. Funny how Duran always struggled so much when the other guy boxed.

[BoxBuzz]

I expected you to be less reactive. Sounds like one of your points here is that that Duran lacked boxing skills. Odd observation. I don’t agree at all. I do think he was far less calculating about his career, and could be more impulsive, and fall victim to his emotions. This played out in his ups and downs. Which was my point about srl. His gift was his level headed consistency. Give Duran that gift and he outperforms Ray. As he did in their first encounter. Ray was one of the most stable and poised fighters in history. And “good” and “better” are quite subjective.