George Foreman: Monster

dr_devious
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by dr_devious »

Controversial wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 05:39 This reminds me of the thread I started before about why was Foreman so highly rated. His power was very good but he was far from unbeatable in his prime. The fact is his opponents up to fighting Frazier were average at best, lots had very poor records and many were under 200lbs. Not really surprising he was smashing these guys out in quick time. Ali knocked him out, Lyle came close to knocking him out and a feather fisted Young outpointed him. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion he would easily beat the modern HWs.
Ali was Ali and Foreman fought a pretty dumb fight against him and Lyle and Young were both fine heavies in their prime and both in George's post prime.

I don't see any of the top modern heavies having the chin to last very long with George other than Vitali
margaret thatcher
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by margaret thatcher »

Thing that always stands out to me about good old Jorge is how despite being so slow and crude he had not that much trouble landing on opponents. His accuracy was actually pretty good. Why though? Cus just to the eye he looks so slow and telegraphed. Someone explain the nuances to me, he clearly had some craftiness to him even if it sounds funny to think of him like that
Controversial
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Controversial »

dr_devious wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 16:34
Ali was Ali and Foreman fought a pretty dumb fight against him and Lyle and Young were both fine heavies in their prime and both in George's post prime.
Post prime, he was only 28 when he retired!! It's not like he was in many wars, most of his fights finished early. Yes they were decent fighters but I'm sure if they gave Foreman trouble then the top guys today would also give him trouble.
dr_devious
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by dr_devious »

Post prime as in his prime dippen after the Ali beating and before his late 80s comeback.

You've got more faith than me in Wilder et al giving Big George a go. I think he'd frighten them to death and have them mentally beaten before the start. He's cut from a totally different cloth than his modern day successors.
Controversial
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Controversial »

dr_devious wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 17:45 Post prime as in his prime dippen after the Ali beating and before his late 80s comeback.

You've got more faith than me in Wilder et al giving Big George a go. I think he'd frighten them to death and have them mentally beaten before the start. He's cut from a totally different cloth than his modern day successors.
I'd go as far to say Foreman was a better fighter when he was older and fatter. He had learned to pace himself and the extra weight made him stronger. Love him or hate him Wilder is capable of hurting anyone and Fury is capable of frustrating and outboxing anyone.
overhand_right
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by overhand_right »

Controversial wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 18:23
dr_devious wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 17:45 Post prime as in his prime dippen after the Ali beating and before his late 80s comeback.

You've got more faith than me in Wilder et al giving Big George a go. I think he'd frighten them to death and have them mentally beaten before the start. He's cut from a totally different cloth than his modern day successors.
I'd go as far to say Foreman was a better fighter when he was older and fatter. He had learned to pace himself and the extra weight made him stronger. Love him or hate him Wilder is capable of hurting anyone and Fury is capable of frustrating and outboxing anyone.
These types of posts have a tendency to age badly. A lot of people saw AJ as the best of the three and too big and strong for the greats of yore, although no one now admits to ever holding that opinion having seem him knocked silly by a morbidly obese midget. Wilder while a dangerous puncher is an accident waiting to happen and Fury has been down several times and struggled with a very mediocre Wallin. Why not just wait until you know more about them before picking them over George Foreman?
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by oogiebe »

overhand_right wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 18:52
Controversial wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 18:23

I'd go as far to say Foreman was a better fighter when he was older and fatter. He had learned to pace himself and the extra weight made him stronger. Love him or hate him Wilder is capable of hurting anyone and Fury is capable of frustrating and outboxing anyone.
These types of posts have a tendency to age badly. A lot of people saw AJ as the best of the three and too big and strong for the greats of yore, although no one now admits to ever holding that opinion having seem him knocked silly by a morbidly obese midget. Wilder while a dangerous puncher is an accident waiting to happen and Fury has been down several times and struggled with a very mediocre Wallin. Why not just wait until you know more about them before picking them over George Foreman?
LOL on the AJ opinions of the past. Everyone who annointed him became Peter to Jesus. Wilder's vulnerability is what makes him an exciting watch. In fact, the big boys of the division all have their vulnerabilities which makes for a very competitive division if only they would fight one another. That golden age of Foreman; Frazier; Ali; and Norton had something these guys have yet to show and can only do that by fighting one another. (and a higher punch output).
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Controversial »

overhand_right wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 18:52
Controversial wrote: 30 Sep 2019, 18:23

I'd go as far to say Foreman was a better fighter when he was older and fatter. He had learned to pace himself and the extra weight made him stronger. Love him or hate him Wilder is capable of hurting anyone and Fury is capable of frustrating and outboxing anyone.
These types of posts have a tendency to age badly. A lot of people saw AJ as the best of the three and too big and strong for the greats of yore, although no one now admits to ever holding that opinion having seem him knocked silly by a morbidly obese midget. Wilder while a dangerous puncher is an accident waiting to happen and Fury has been down several times and struggled with a very mediocre Wallin. Why not just wait until you know more about them before picking them over George Foreman?
I didn't say they would beat him, all I said was its not a forgone conclusion that he would beat them all no problem. Foreman could be hurt and he could be outboxed.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by dr_devious »

Wilder could wobble Big George and maybe put him down but do you see him keeping him down?

Fury could fiddle around with Big George for a while but do you think he keeps him away for more than a few rounds?

And do you see either of them having the chins to be able to withstand Foreman's power punches?
Onetimeonly
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Onetimeonly »

What I find amusing is I'd strongly favor the young and Lyle George faced over any of these guys.
overhand_right
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by overhand_right »

It took Ali and Young to beat 70s Foreman, heavies with not only two of the best radars for incoming punches ever, but also two of the best chins ever, and both were greatly aided by the hulking monster having to work in jungle heat.

I wonder how Anthony Joshua's stamina would hold up in jungle heat? Think it would improve?

I personally don't see anyone today with the defensive genius of Ali and Young, or the chins. And while Foreman looked caveman crude he had freakishly heavy fists and uncanny accuracy, and the ability to stalk and crowd while reading return punches and either catching them with his arms or shaving the power off them with just a slight turn of his head. It's a frightful composite, and as I said, it took the chins and ring brains of Ali and Young, and extenuating circumstances, to overcome them.
overhand_right
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by overhand_right »

Onetimeonly wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 08:22 What I find amusing is I'd strongly favor the young and Lyle George faced over any of these guys.
Yep, ditto
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Duran1970 »

Onetimeonly wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 08:22 What I find amusing is I'd strongly favor the young and Lyle George faced over any of these guys.
X2
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Ambling Alp II »

If Lyle was fighting today, we probably would be in the "Ron Lyle era". And some people would be saying how he would destroy Foreman, Ali, Young, and Quarry,
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Onetimeonly »

Ambling Alp II wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 12:37 If Lyle was fighting today, we probably would be in the "Ron Lyle era". And some people would be saying how he would destroy Foreman, Ali, Young, and Quarry,
Lol, his highlight reel wlad ko would be replayed over and over.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Cojimar 1946 »

Back in Foreman's era many older fans would have argued that his era didn't measure up to prior eras and that guys like Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey would have wiped the floor with him.

The whole past eras are better than the present era trend goes way back, it's nothing new. I just wish people could back their opinions with some sort of analysis.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Onetimeonly »

No you don't, you'd just ignore it and go about your trolling. The simplest way for you to learn is actually watch the fights. The two things that current fighters lack the most across the board is training. Not just the lackluster conditioning but you can't learn as much sparring as you can in a fight and the solid gatekeeper types are no longer around and if they were guys wouldn't risk losing to them. You used to find out what a guy was made of in 15 fights or so, now they can go a career proving nothing. Watch Vargas/miura and then chain/limon 4. Hell, watch holy field/bowe. Two heavyweights fighting at an exponentially more grueling pace than two Jr lightweights in a foty.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Enlightened-One »

At his physical prime, Foreman was simply a rehydrated cruiserweight by modern standards.

George Foreman’s mathematical average weight was 217lbs from the start of his career through until the end of 1973. He was 217½lbs when he faced Joe Frazier in 1973. He was also only 6’ 3.5” in height.

From the start of his career through until 1973, the average George Foreman opponent was typically 6’ 0” in height, weighing around the 206lbs mark.

Unsurprisingly, Foreman weighed more than 92% of his opponents, with only three of those heavier fighters being taller him.

It seems that people are allowing nostalgia to cloud their judgement to the point where they either believe that “size doesn’t matter” or they feel that George Foreman was a bigger heavyweight than he really was.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by oogiebe »

Enlightened-One wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 19:46 At his physical prime, Foreman was simply a rehydrated cruiserweight by modern standards.

George Foreman’s mathematical average weight was 217lbs from the start of his career through until the end of 1973. He was 217½lbs when he faced Joe Frazier in 1973. He was also only 6’ 3.5” in height.

From the start of his career through until 1973, the average George Foreman opponent was typically 6’ 0” in height, weighing around the 206lbs mark.

Unsurprisingly, Foreman weighed more than 92% of his opponents, with only three of those heavier fighters being taller him.

It seems that people are allowing nostalgia to cloud their judgement to the point where they either believe that “size doesn’t matter” or they feel that George Foreman was a bigger heavyweight than he really was.
Nah.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Cojimar 1946 »

Enlightened-One wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 19:46 At his physical prime, Foreman was simply a rehydrated cruiserweight by modern standards.

George Foreman’s mathematical average weight was 217lbs from the start of his career through until the end of 1973. He was 217½lbs when he faced Joe Frazier in 1973. He was also only 6’ 3.5” in height.

From the start of his career through until 1973, the average George Foreman opponent was typically 6’ 0” in height, weighing around the 206lbs mark.

Unsurprisingly, Foreman weighed more than 92% of his opponents, with only three of those heavier fighters being taller him.

It seems that people are allowing nostalgia to cloud their judgement to the point where they either believe that “size doesn’t matter” or they feel that George Foreman was a bigger heavyweight than he really was.
Foreman's 6'3, not 6'3 1/2
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Once the maniacally defensive  Kalan was eliminated and the infantile mythical fights was relocated, the thoughts were this could return to a serious discussion about boxing history, but, alas, the recent stupidity of Foreman proves otherwise.

No need to publicly shame the miscreants who will recognize themselves soon enough.

The 6-4 Foreman is obviously taller with more bone and muscle mass than the 6-3 Norton and Ali. He debuted at 219 lb, age 20, and at the same age Ali first touched the 200 mark. Moreover George was withheld water and nutrition in the last day and fight night to make him more surly and destructive while under the regrettable Sadler who sold George down the river in Zaire. Norton turned pro at 205, age 24. Wlad turned pro age 20 at 220. Only thing small here is the intellect thinking George is a small heavy. After ditching Sadler to swing with Clancy, he jumps to 224-231 because now he's allowed small portions of food and drink. Today he'd be hydrated out the gills and muscled up like nobody's biz because they'd have him on a body weight/weight lifting program. 

AJ! Kalan still rules your hearts, minds, and souls so admit it. AJ set some modern day records probably to never be repeated for 100 years and may well be back where he started if he regains his belts.

Ruiz a midget! He's formidable looking in the 240s, now you dullards pray tell me when you've ever seen a one off build like this in boxing? In the 260s for Josh his pant size near the same as Josh, but compare the inseam to his stumps. He's got a longer upper body than the 6-6 Josh. The Dempsey dumpster would be telling us he's a lightheavy if he was still around! Only thing midget here is your demonstrable IQs.

Image

If Ali and Young had defensive genius they would not have ended up in such a pitiable, dangerously derelict condition...duh!!!

The only guy to definitively beat Foreman was Tommy, and even he risked DQ by turning his back to walk away from old, slow George by then. Zaire was an orchestrated and documented French Farce, and all Jimmy did was stink and run from his beating until he was lucky enough to walk the exhausted George being ducked by Ali for the flash KD. George had Mr. Evan Field hanging on for his life, and point in fact after Ali and Field took beatings by George, they looked like stink as their KO% shrunk to your popcorn levels. Briggs ran like the school girl he really is.

You sweethearts have yet to rise above the infantile mythical fights section. Time to firm up the flab lest ye dissolve into a tub of communal goo.
:TU:
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Controversial »

dr_devious wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 07:20 Wilder could wobble Big George and maybe put him down but do you see him keeping him down?

Fury could fiddle around with Big George for a while but do you think he keeps him away for more than a few rounds?

And do you see either of them having the chins to be able to withstand Foreman's power punches?
Its HW boxing, Wilder can punch very hard, he has shown very good one punch power. Anyone with that kind of power can knock anyone out if he lands flush. Yes of course Foreman could knock him out too. Same for Fury, he has the ability to make an awkward fight with anyone, his size, speed and unconventional style allows that. Yes again Foreman has the ability to knock him out but also Fury has the ability to spoil and frustrate and nicking it on points. To give neither a chance is silly.
oogiebe
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by oogiebe »

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 21:36 Once the maniacally defensive  Kalan was eliminated and the infantile mythical fights was relocated, the thoughts were this could return to a serious discussion about boxing history, but, alas, the recent stupidity of Foreman proves otherwise.

No need to publicly shame the miscreants who will recognize themselves soon enough.

The 6-4 Foreman is obviously taller with more bone and muscle mass than the 6-3 Norton and Ali. He debuted at 219 lb, age 20, and at the same age Ali first touched the 200 mark. Moreover George was withheld water and nutrition in the last day and fight night to make him more surly and destructive while under the regrettable Sadler who sold George down the river in Zaire. Norton turned pro at 205, age 24. Wlad turned pro age 20 at 220. Only thing small here is the intellect thinking George is a small heavy. After ditching Sadler to swing with Clancy, he jumps to 224-231 because now he's allowed small portions of food and drink. Today he'd be hydrated out the gills and muscled up like nobody's biz because they'd have him on a body weight/weight lifting program. 

AJ! Kalan still rules your hearts, minds, and souls so admit it. AJ set some modern day records probably to never be repeated for 100 years and may well be back where he started if he regains his belts.

Ruiz a midget! He's formidable looking in the 240s, now you dullards pray tell me when you've ever seen a one off build like this in boxing? In the 260s for Josh his pant size near the same as Josh, but compare the inseam to his stumps. He's got a longer upper body than the 6-6 Josh. The Dempsey dumpster would be telling us he's a lightheavy if he was still around! Only thing midget here is your demonstrable IQs.

Image

If Ali and Young had defensive genius they would not have ended up in such a pitiable, dangerously derelict condition...duh!!!

The only guy to definitively beat Foreman was Tommy, and even he risked DQ by turning his back to walk away from old, slow George by then. Zaire was an orchestrated and documented French Farce, and all Jimmy did was stink and run from his beating until he was lucky enough to walk the exhausted George being ducked by Ali for the flash KD. George had Mr. Evan Field hanging on for his life, and point in fact after Ali and Field took beatings by George, they looked like stink as their KO% shrunk to your popcorn levels. Briggs ran like the school girl he really is.

You sweethearts have yet to rise above the infantile mythical fights section. Time to firm up the flab lest ye dissolve into a tub of communal goo.
:TU:
Thanks for that. This thread was intended as a tribute to the size and power of George. It went off the rails as you point out. I started watching boxing in the 60's and my dad and uncles never opined that George would lose to the 'old timers.' Quite the contrary, they were awed by the raw strength and power of the big guy. It's too bad that posters seem to have the need to put their contrarian opinions on seemingly every thread they see. Simply put and to repeat myself, this is about appreciating Foreman for what he was and always will be. :TU:
dr_devious
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by dr_devious »

Controversial wrote: 02 Oct 2019, 05:46
dr_devious wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 07:20 Wilder could wobble Big George and maybe put him down but do you see him keeping him down?

Fury could fiddle around with Big George for a while but do you think he keeps him away for more than a few rounds?

And do you see either of them having the chins to be able to withstand Foreman's power punches?
Its HW boxing, Wilder can punch very hard, he has shown very good one punch power. Anyone with that kind of power can knock anyone out if he lands flush. Yes of course Foreman could knock him out too. Same for Fury, he has the ability to make an awkward fight with anyone, his size, speed and unconventional style allows that. Yes again Foreman has the ability to knock him out but also Fury has the ability to spoil and frustrate and nicking it on points. To give neither a chance is silly.
Neither Fury nor Wilder have the punch resistance to survive a monster like Foreman and to think otherwise is silly.
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Re: George Foreman: Monster

Post by Controversial »

dr_devious wrote: 02 Oct 2019, 08:12
Controversial wrote: 02 Oct 2019, 05:46

Its HW boxing, Wilder can punch very hard, he has shown very good one punch power. Anyone with that kind of power can knock anyone out if he lands flush. Yes of course Foreman could knock him out too. Same for Fury, he has the ability to make an awkward fight with anyone, his size, speed and unconventional style allows that. Yes again Foreman has the ability to knock him out but also Fury has the ability to spoil and frustrate and nicking it on points. To give neither a chance is silly.
Neither Fury nor Wilder have the punch resistance to survive a monster like Foreman and to think otherwise is silly.
No it’s not. Boxing is full of upsets or fights that were harder than people expected. To not give a world class HW no chance in a two man fight is ridiculous. So if Foreman fought Fury or Wilder ten times each he would win every time? Reputations, records and past achievements don’t win fights. If that were the case predicting fights would be easy.
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