Controversial wrote: ↑04 Oct 2019, 06:03
Why does it matter who you have beaten before? Boxing isn't that black and white and easy to predict. Boxing is full of upsets. Most HWs are the first to admit it only takes one punch and styles do make fights. Fighters like Frazier and Norton were made for Foreman, Peralta gave Foreman a tougher fight than they did, that doesn't mean Peralta was a better fighter than them.
Rahman beat Lewis, Braddock beat Baer, Douglas beat Tyson, Spinks beat Ali and so on. Had these fights never happened would anyone have given them any chance. Had Cooper landed that left hook 30 seconds earlier he may have stopped Ali. So all I'm saying in a two man fight it's silly to dismiss guys like Wilder and Fury because they have their own skillsets, which love it or hate it, has proven to be successful.
The best way to judge a fighter's pedigree is to check who they have beaten and lost to on their record, and the best way to predict a fight outcome (real or hypothetical) is to assess the fighter's pedigree and records.
Agree that upsets do happen as you've mentioned above, although Spinks only beat the ghost of Ali.
Wilder and Fury have been very successful in a very poor HW era whereas Foreman was very successful in probably the strongest HW era which indicates a much better pedigree.
And yet again, I just don't see how Wilder or Fury have got the chins to withstand Foreman for very long. Stylistically he's a very bad match up for them imo.
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Oct 2019, 06:03
Why does it matter who you have beaten before? Boxing isn't that black and white and easy to predict. Boxing is full of upsets. Most HWs are the first to admit it only takes one punch and styles do make fights. Fighters like Frazier and Norton were made for Foreman, Peralta gave Foreman a tougher fight than they did, that doesn't mean Peralta was a better fighter than them.
Rahman beat Lewis, Braddock beat Baer, Douglas beat Tyson, Spinks beat Ali and so on. Had these fights never happened would anyone have given them any chance. Had Cooper landed that left hook 30 seconds earlier he may have stopped Ali. So all I'm saying in a two man fight it's silly to dismiss guys like Wilder and Fury because they have their own skillsets, which love it or hate it, has proven to be successful.
The best way to judge a fighter's pedigree is to check who they have beaten and lost to on their record, and the best way to predict a fight outcome (real or hypothetical) is to assess the fighter's pedigree and records.
Agree that upsets do happen as you've mentioned above, although Spinks only beat the ghost of Ali.
Wilder and Fury have been very successful in a very poor HW era whereas Foreman was very successful in probably the strongest HW era which indicates a much better pedigree.
And yet again, I just don't see how Wilder or Fury have got the chins to withstand Foreman for very long. Stylistically he's a very bad match up for them imo.
Yes but it doesn't guarantee a win thats all I'm saying. Different fighters, different strengths and weaknesses. Marciano fought in a weak era. Holmes fought in the 80s which wasn't as strong as the 70s. Frazier and Norton were obviously great wins for Foreman but Frazier was made for a fighter like Foreman, short and stands in front of him and tries to trade. Perfect. Norton was a fairly slow starter and often struggled against big punchers. Perfect.
Of course Foreman could blow Wilder and Fury both out in quick time but Foreman could be hurt and he could be outboxed. I just don't go along with the argument that you need to have a proven pedigree or be classed as a great fighter to beat someone good, if that were the case no underdog would ever win.
The gap between Foreman's pedigree and resume and those of Wilderand Fury is significant.
Wilder and Fury have both been staggered and in Fury's case knocked down by boxers with only a fraction of the power and less than a fraction of the killer instinct of Foreman.
As well as this neither of them have been anywhere near a ring with a man as intimidating as Foreman, in fact I can't think of anyone else in the same league in this respect other than Sonny Liston and possibly the young Mike Tyson.
All in all a bout with George Foreman wouldn't bode well for Wilder or Fury.
dr_devious wrote: ↑04 Oct 2019, 15:34
The gap between Foreman's pedigree and resume and those of Wilderand Fury is significant.
Wilder and Fury have both been staggered and in Fury's case knocked down by boxers with only a fraction of the power and less than a fraction of the killer instinct of Foreman.
As well as this neither of them have been anywhere near a ring with a man as intimidating as Foreman, in fact I can't think of anyone else in the same league in this respect other than Sonny Liston and possibly the young Mike Tyson.
All in all a bout with George Foreman wouldn't bode well for Wilder or Fury.
I wouldn't read too much into Fury being knocked down. Wilder hit him with punches that would have flattened most fighters and he got up. Anyone can get knocked down, it's how you react that matters. Neither seem the type that get easily intimidated to be honest.
overhand_right wrote: ↑28 Sep 2019, 13:01
Holyfield at 208 had the brute strength to lift a 260lb Foreman off his feet with his punches. Behemoths like Savarese and Briggs couldn't make him blink with their punches. There's so much more to heavyweight boxing than height and reach. Razor Ruddock at his peak was "only" 6'3'', at his best in the 220s, and was a total monster.
Exactly. Foreman could easily give Fury and Joshua 40lbs weight advantage and take their heads off their shoulders.
Look at the make up of their respective physiques. Fury is a little gangly and lanky, waspish legs, fat gut and skinny arms. Joshua has a pretty skinny frame that is carrying a lot of added muscle. Foreman has a bigger frame than both.
dr_devious wrote: ↑04 Oct 2019, 15:34
The gap between Foreman's pedigree and resume and those of Wilderand Fury is significant.
Wilder and Fury have both been staggered and in Fury's case knocked down by boxers with only a fraction of the power and less than a fraction of the killer instinct of Foreman.
As well as this neither of them have been anywhere near a ring with a man as intimidating as Foreman, in fact I can't think of anyone else in the same league in this respect other than Sonny Liston and possibly the young Mike Tyson.
All in all a bout with George Foreman wouldn't bode well for Wilder or Fury.
I wouldn't read too much into Fury being knocked down. Wilder hit him with punches that would have flattened most fighters and he got up. Anyone can get knocked down, it's how you react that matters. Neither seem the type that get easily intimidated to be honest.
Neither have fought anyone particularly intimidating though. Ortiz is possibly the most intimidating fighter either have faced and he’s hardly a terror.
Wilder never actually landed his money shot on Fury. He didn’t land much at all! The first knockdown was actually pitiful and had me worried for Fury that if a shot like that can drop him he’s in trouble. The big knock down which brought about the incredible recovery was not a full blooded shot, Fury was going backwards and sort of rode the shot/took the sting out of it.
Wilders money shot is the straight right hand and Fury never felt it. If, and it’s a big if, Deontay can land that in a rematch, Fury isn’t getting up.
I wouldn't read too much into Fury being knocked down. Wilder hit him with punches that would have flattened most fighters and he got up. Anyone can get knocked down, it's how you react that matters. Neither seem the type that get easily intimidated to be honest.
Neither have fought anyone particularly intimidating though. Ortiz is possibly the most intimidating fighter either have faced and he’s hardly a terror.
Wilder never actually landed his money shot on Fury. He didn’t land much at all! The first knockdown was actually pitiful and had me worried for Fury that if a shot like that can drop him he’s in trouble. The big knock down which brought about the incredible recovery was not a full blooded shot, Fury was going backwards and sort of rode the shot/took the sting out of it.
Wilders money shot is the straight right hand and Fury never felt it. If, and it’s a big if, Deontay can land that in a rematch, Fury isn’t getting up.
He took two punches, the right hand and then a left hook as he was going down which was probably the better punch. The fact Wilder couldn't land for most of the fight is testament to Fury. Of course anyone can get knocked out in HW boxing. I'm not really a fan of Fury, his style is boring but it is effective. I thought Haye would beat him had they fought. Not so sure now though. I thought Klitschko would beat him and I thought Wilder would beat him. The guy is huge, awkward, can switch hit and move, that makes him a difficult opponent.
This is George Foreman we are talking about though who annhilated far better heavyweights than Wilder and Fury who have only beaten one elite HW between them who was nearly 40 at the time. They've never been anywhere near someone like Foreman and have both shown vulnerability in the ring which Big George would be all over like a shark after blood. That's why I give them no chance whatsover in a hypothetical match with Foreman.
I'm sure you'll come back with Wilder has this monster punch and Fury is very awkward which I agree with, and its possible they could have fleeting moments of success e.g. Wilder could rock Foreman early, Fury could win a couple of early rounds. But in the end both are getting KOd and probably sooner rather than later.
Why does it matter who you have beaten before? Boxing isn't that black and white and easy to predict. Boxing is full of upsets. Most HWs are the first to admit it only takes one punch and styles do make fights. Fighters like Frazier and Norton were made for Foreman, Peralta gave Foreman a tougher fight than they did, that doesn't mean Peralta was a better fighter than them.
Rahman beat Lewis, Braddock beat Baer, Douglas beat Tyson, Spinks beat Ali and so on. Had these fights never happened would anyone have given them any chance. Had Cooper landed that left hook 30 seconds earlier he may have stopped Ali. So all I'm saying in a two man fight it's silly to dismiss guys like Wilder and Fury because they have their own skillsets, which love it or hate it, has proven to be successful.
Yes there are upsets. Yes you pontificate that styles make fights and all that. But the vast majority of the time, the better fighters wins.
If the best argument that you can make for Wilder and Fury is that upsets happen, you don't have much.
Why you are impressed with Tyson Fury's "skill set" is baffling. He simply is not that good. Foreman was great.
So yes you should look at what these guys have done in past fights.
Johann Duhaupas and Artur Szpilka wouldn't go 11 rounds with todays Foreman let alone any version of him fighting, Foreman would murder, and I mean murder Wilder
Fury lasts longer but still gets wrecked...
Can you imagine what would happen if Prime Foreman hit Charlie Zelenoff?? Charlies head would liquidise on impact, Wilder couldn't even keep him down
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Oct 2019, 10:49
Yes there are upsets. Yes you pontificate that styles make fights and all that. But the vast majority of the time, the better fighters wins.
If the best argument that you can make for Wilder and Fury is that upsets happen, you don't have much.
Why you are impressed with Tyson Fury's "skill set" is baffling. He simply is not that good. Foreman was great.
So yes you should look at what these guys have done in past fights.
I've already said I'm not a fan of Fury. He's character has grown on me but I've betted against him in all his big fights. His style bores me. But love him or hate him he isn't an easy opponent for anyone. His size and movement make him hard work, you listen to any sparring partner of his and they all say he is a nightmare to fight. A prime Foreman vs Fury my money would still be on Foreman but Fury has shown the ability to frustrate and win fights against the odds.
