Is valuev a threat to marcianos record?
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generic screen name
- Heavyweight
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What does it matter? If Valuev goes 50-0 then statistically he has beaten the record but the record is not that important, not really. It's better to have lost fights and to have beaten some great guys than to be over protected. If you put yourself up against the best then you are going to lose sometimes.
Good luck to Valuev... He's not as bad as some say.
Good luck to Valuev... He's not as bad as some say.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
While I stick with I stated earlier about Valuev not being a champion, the NC on his record has no real bearing on whether he can attain a 50-0 record. A NC is just that – “no contest”. It is intended to be regarded as a contest that does not count towards a fighter’s record. IF Valuev becomes undisputed champion and IF he goes 50-0 (1 NC) then he will have beaten the Rocks record. And hell will have frozen over.
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>>>the NC on his record has no real bearing on whether he can attain a 50-0 record. A NC is just that – “no contest”.<<<
It has total bearing if you want to be correct about the issue. Marciano's record is looked at not only because of the 49-0, but because there were no draws, no no contests, no blemishes and that is part of the mystique that surrounds the record and so is the fact that the 49-0 is consecutive, which Valuev won 19 consecutive, then the NC, and now he has won 25 consecutive. Whether it was his fault, or not, Valuev lost the record comparison with the NC!
It was a legitimate bout that was ruled a NC and it is now a blemish on his record. I don't know the details surrounding that bout, but Valuev will never be able to match Marciano's record because of the blemish...it won't matter if Valuev were to go 100-0, he will always have that blemish!
It has total bearing if you want to be correct about the issue. Marciano's record is looked at not only because of the 49-0, but because there were no draws, no no contests, no blemishes and that is part of the mystique that surrounds the record and so is the fact that the 49-0 is consecutive, which Valuev won 19 consecutive, then the NC, and now he has won 25 consecutive. Whether it was his fault, or not, Valuev lost the record comparison with the NC!
It was a legitimate bout that was ruled a NC and it is now a blemish on his record. I don't know the details surrounding that bout, but Valuev will never be able to match Marciano's record because of the blemish...it won't matter if Valuev were to go 100-0, he will always have that blemish!
Re: re
But surely a NC in essence means just that, that it wasnt deemed in the end to be a true contest for what ever reason and so therefore it shouldnt really have any bearing on his record... if he stays undefeated then he's undefeated... the NC shouldnt really be regarded as a blemish as such... if he cleans up the division and retires at 52-0 I really don't think that the NC would or should be an issue...barry wrote:>>>the NC on his record has no real bearing on whether he can attain a 50-0 record. A NC is just that – “no contest”.<<<
It has total bearing if you want to be correct about the issue. Marciano's record is looked at not only because of the 49-0, but because there were no draws, no no contests, no blemishes and that is part of the mystique that surrounds the record and so is the fact that the 49-0 is consecutive, which Valuev won 19 consecutive, then the NC, and now he has won 25 consecutive. Whether it was his fault, or not, Valuev lost the record comparison with the NC!
It was a legitimate bout that was ruled a NC and it is now a blemish on his record. I don't know the details surrounding that bout, but Valuev will never be able to match Marciano's record because of the blemish...it won't matter if Valuev were to go 100-0, he will always have that blemish!
re
>>>But surely a NC in essence means just that, that it wasnt deemed in the end to be a true contest for what ever reason and so therefore it shouldnt really have any bearing on his record... if he stays undefeated then he's undefeated... the NC shouldnt really be regarded as a blemish as such... if he cleans up the division and retires at 52-0 I really don't think that the NC would or should be an issue...<<<
Of course it was a true contest and it most certainly is an issue regarding Marciano’s streak of 49-0!
If Valuev would have scored a knockout in the first round of that bout it would now be listed as a KO 1 in his record...if he lost the bout by decision it would right now be listed as L 6 in his record.
For whatever reason, whether one of the fighters tested positive for drugs, or the bout was stopped because of an injury, or whatever, it was a legitimate contest that Valuev did not win and should be regarded as such. It was an actual bout, if not then it would have been called an exhibition, which it most certainly was not.
It's no different than Tyson's NC against Golota, where he stopped Golota, but tested positive for pot, which as a result his TKO was changed to a NC, or it’s no different than the NC that Jeff Lacy received in his bout with Vitali Tsypko, which because of a cut and being that the bout did not go four, or five rounds it was then called a NC, but it was a true bout.
Of course it was a true contest and it most certainly is an issue regarding Marciano’s streak of 49-0!
If Valuev would have scored a knockout in the first round of that bout it would now be listed as a KO 1 in his record...if he lost the bout by decision it would right now be listed as L 6 in his record.
For whatever reason, whether one of the fighters tested positive for drugs, or the bout was stopped because of an injury, or whatever, it was a legitimate contest that Valuev did not win and should be regarded as such. It was an actual bout, if not then it would have been called an exhibition, which it most certainly was not.
It's no different than Tyson's NC against Golota, where he stopped Golota, but tested positive for pot, which as a result his TKO was changed to a NC, or it’s no different than the NC that Jeff Lacy received in his bout with Vitali Tsypko, which because of a cut and being that the bout did not go four, or five rounds it was then called a NC, but it was a true bout.
Looking at his record the NC actually seems to have gone 6 rounds.... or is this the duration that the fight was set for?.... if it went 6 rounds it would be interesting to know why it was made a NC?.... what was the points standing after 5 rounds?... this doesnt seem to be a case of a fight stopped before it has begun so you have to wonder hwat actually happened here...
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I found a little info on the bout:
"But the fight that catapulted him into the memory of boxing experts was his only second professional contest where he faced 2,13m giant Nicolai Valuev on May 7, 1999, in Prague. In a highly confused event Sidon gave Valuev a competitive fight when suddenly the referee stopped the contest for no apparent reason in round three. Sidon opposed against this stoppage and urged Valuev to carry on the fight. While a riot broke out in the crowd Sidon and Valuev kept on fighting with bottles being thrown into the ring and with other people trying to clean the canvas. After six chaotic rounds the fight was declared a non-contest."
"But the fight that catapulted him into the memory of boxing experts was his only second professional contest where he faced 2,13m giant Nicolai Valuev on May 7, 1999, in Prague. In a highly confused event Sidon gave Valuev a competitive fight when suddenly the referee stopped the contest for no apparent reason in round three. Sidon opposed against this stoppage and urged Valuev to carry on the fight. While a riot broke out in the crowd Sidon and Valuev kept on fighting with bottles being thrown into the ring and with other people trying to clean the canvas. After six chaotic rounds the fight was declared a non-contest."
Re: re
So it did actually go 6 rounds... in that case I agree with you that it is a blemish as such... I was under the impression it was stopped after just a round or so, must be getting mixed up with someone else... its strange that theres no info on why it was ruled a NC... or what the points standings were up tp the finish... at least if we knew Valuev was ahead it would clear up the question of whether he might even have been behind at the finish and so technically perhaps not even undefeated as such... although now my imagination is starting to run away with me...barry wrote:>>>But surely a NC in essence means just that, that it wasnt deemed in the end to be a true contest for what ever reason and so therefore it shouldnt really have any bearing on his record... if he stays undefeated then he's undefeated... the NC shouldnt really be regarded as a blemish as such... if he cleans up the division and retires at 52-0 I really don't think that the NC would or should be an issue...<<<
Of course it was a true contest and it most certainly is an issue regarding Marciano’s streak of 49-0!
If Valuev would have scored a knockout in the first round of that bout it would now be listed as a KO 1 in his record...if he lost the bout by decision it would right now be listed as L 6 in his record.
For whatever reason, whether one of the fighters tested positive for drugs, or the bout was stopped because of an injury, or whatever, it was a legitimate contest that Valuev did not win and should be regarded as such. It was an actual bout, if not then it would have been called an exhibition, which it most certainly was not.
It's no different than Tyson's NC against Golota, where he stopped Golota, but tested positive for pot, which as a result his TKO was changed to a NC, or it’s no different than the NC that Jeff Lacy received in his bout with Vitali Tsypko, which because of a cut and being that the bout did not go four, or five rounds it was then called a NC, but it was a true bout.
Re: re
Blimey, I wish I had that on video, ...so they probably never read the score cards?. Sidon is actually quite an interesting character judging by his record... 43 and he didnt turn pro till he was 36 it seems...barry wrote:I found a little info on the bout:
"But the fight that catapulted him into the memory of boxing experts was his only second professional contest where he faced 2,13m giant Nicolai Valuev on May 7, 1999, in Prague. In a highly confused event Sidon gave Valuev a competitive fight when suddenly the referee stopped the contest for no apparent reason in round three. Sidon opposed against this stoppage and urged Valuev to carry on the fight. While a riot broke out in the crowd Sidon and Valuev kept on fighting with bottles being thrown into the ring and with other people trying to clean the canvas. After six chaotic rounds the fight was declared a non-contest."
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I think he is an even 7'. Funny, Valuev never tried to rectify that bout. A re-match was scheduled at one time, but canceled...I don't recall which fighter cancelled. As to they're fight...I would say that things just got so out of hand with the crowd that they had to stop the bout, though I would like to find some more info to verify. I'm sure no scorecards were read out, but they should exist somewhere. A person might be bale to go through the day after Prague newspapers to get the recap. I'll see if I can track it down somewhere.
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Hang on, this is odd... If the ref stopped the fight then why wasn't that the result? There have been many poor referee decisions so why isn't this a win?barry wrote:I found a little info on the bout:
"But the fight that catapulted him into the memory of boxing experts was his only second professional contest where he faced 2,13m giant Nicolai Valuev on May 7, 1999, in Prague. In a highly confused event Sidon gave Valuev a competitive fight when suddenly the referee stopped the contest for no apparent reason in round three. Sidon opposed against this stoppage and urged Valuev to carry on the fight. While a riot broke out in the crowd Sidon and Valuev kept on fighting with bottles being thrown into the ring and with other people trying to clean the canvas. After six chaotic rounds the fight was declared a non-contest."
re
I'm sure that after stopping it he changed his mind and decided to let things go on. I checked the Prague papers that are online, but was not able to get anything. The Prague Daily Monitor do not have any issues prior to January 12, 2004 online and I did not turn up anything in the Prague Post, or the New Prague Times. The NPT online archive goes back to 2002, but that doesn't help in this case.
re
>>>Hang on, this is odd... If the ref stopped the fight then why wasn't that the result? There have been many poor referee decisions so why isn't this a win?<<<
Not really odd. I would say that the ref stopped the bout to protect the fighters as the crowd was rioting and throwing bottles in the ring. As was said, the bout was close and it was stopped because of the crowd and not from something that Valuev did to Sidon, or vice-versa, so the ref had no other alternative except to call it an NC, or a Technical Draw...whatever the rulings of the commission involved were is why the bout was called a NC instead of a draw, but then again I don't think a draw could have been called as the fight was stopped due to the crowd and not as a result of an injury, or anything to the fighters.
Not really odd. I would say that the ref stopped the bout to protect the fighters as the crowd was rioting and throwing bottles in the ring. As was said, the bout was close and it was stopped because of the crowd and not from something that Valuev did to Sidon, or vice-versa, so the ref had no other alternative except to call it an NC, or a Technical Draw...whatever the rulings of the commission involved were is why the bout was called a NC instead of a draw, but then again I don't think a draw could have been called as the fight was stopped due to the crowd and not as a result of an injury, or anything to the fighters.
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But the ref stopped the bout for "no apparent reason" before the rioting began. I understand that he stopped it for the second time after the riot but... It all seems like a mess.barry wrote:>>>Hang on, this is odd... If the ref stopped the fight then why wasn't that the result? There have been many poor referee decisions so why isn't this a win?<<<
Not really odd. I would say that the ref stopped the bout to protect the fighters as the crowd was rioting and throwing bottles in the ring. As was said, the bout was close and it was stopped because of the crowd and not from something that Valuev did to Sidon, or vice-versa, so the ref had no other alternative except to call it an NC, or a Technical Draw...whatever the rulings of the commission involved were is why the bout was called a NC instead of a draw, but then again I don't think a draw could have been called as the fight was stopped due to the crowd and not as a result of an injury, or anything to the fighters.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Re: re
It was “no apparent reason” according to the person who wrote the account. Perhaps there was a valid reason, but the reporter was either not aware or not competent to judge.Ezzard wrote:But the ref stopped the bout for "no apparent reason" before the rioting began. I understand that he stopped it for the second time after the riot but... It all seems like a mess.
The NC doesnt affect the record...he would break Rocky's record for all intents and purposes if he becomes champ, etc, but Marciano would have a technical "won all his fights" record.Seamus wrote:Valuev's got a no contest against a German fighter, so perhaps his record isn't completely spotless. Does anyone know what happened in that NC ?
As to what happened, the ref called an early stoppage in favour of Valuev, who was massacring Sidon, and the crowd went nuts, made the fighters fight without a ref, who ran out of the ing, was forced back in, ran out again, and was forced back in again.
In the end Valuev won pretty much every round, but becasue of the absurdity surrounding the situation it was declared a NC...although Valuev should really be 45-0 at the moment.
Thanks AxeAxe wrote:The NC doesnt affect the record...he would break Rocky's record for all intents and purposes if he becomes champ, etc, but Marciano would have a technical "won all his fights" record.Seamus wrote:Valuev's got a no contest against a German fighter, so perhaps his record isn't completely spotless. Does anyone know what happened in that NC ?
As to what happened, the ref called an early stoppage in favour of Valuev, who was massacring Sidon, and the crowd went nuts, made the fighters fight without a ref, who ran out of the ing, was forced back in, ran out again, and was forced back in again.
In the end Valuev won pretty much every round, but becasue of the absurdity surrounding the situation it was declared a NC...although Valuev should really be 45-0 at the moment.
That seemed to be what the report was suggesting.
I'm no fan of valuev but if he beats the record then beats it. It doesn't diminsh Marciano's greatness in the slightest.