Dan
Don't you think fighters back then moved faster with hands and feet than the what you see today.?Fighters today are very ponderous,expecially their feet.
Rog, remember the line we hear trainers tell fighters today, "Win this time, look good next time". Because of contracts and TV, todays fighters can afford to do that. Everything today is strategy to get that win. Which is OK, but doesn't do anything for the guy in the seat. While these guys today are posing and going minute by minute looking for the opening, the fighters of yesterday would have been all over them to put on a good show. It's like I said in the earlier post, you want to be asked back and those guys like Rosi and Alvarez were entertainers. I agree with your assesment 100%.
Dan
All the gyms in San Diego are a composite of all the Asian arts of self defense,wrestling,and boxing. The guys who offer instruction in boxing never were fighters or they fought but never were any good.. You can see the lack of skills in their fighters because these "trainers' couldn't teach them the basic fundamentals. it was the blind leading the blind. You see it on TV with fighters today.Unless it's a guy like Freddie Roach or a Ronnie Shields the list starts running dry in a hurry. Take it a step further. These fighters who went along in their careers without gaining much in technique,then go on to be a "trainer." It's the blind leading the blind.Back in the 40's and earlier there was no Little League nor Pop Warner Football. Kids went to the gym to learn how to box.Every dad of my era(and sure your dad too)spent many afternoons in the local boxing gym getting instruction from someone who knew something about boxing.Gil Clancy was a P.E. teacher when asked to train Emile Griffith. I know a guy who was a fighter in San Diego awhile back.He lost as many as he won. He trains fighters now.For the life of me I watch him giving instruction and I know more than him and I was never a fighter,but I hung around enough good trainers like Burke Emery and Eddie Futch(and of course Archie Moore) to pick up a thing or two.
Toney fought in spurts...clearly not in shape...Tiberi fought the whole 3 minutes of each round...very good body punching..Toney outworked plain and simple..and recently went on record admitting he lost...
Disgraceful decision
Sat down and watched the Dick Tiger v Henry Hank fight today out of MSG. Terrific fight. No point in tabulating scoring here because I had it 9-0-1 for Tiger, giving only the 8th round even. One might also dispute the 4th round which was very close but I still felt Tiger did enough. Official scores were 8-1-1, 9-0-1 and 10-0. But don't look at the scores and figure it was one-sided, because every round was close. Hank came along in a very competitive and rough era. Today, I would see him with multiple titles. Anyways, enjoy if you can open the link. I would also point out checking out at 40:48 of this link. It was the 10th round and these two exchanged left hooks that made me yell, "Whoooooa!"
Always enjoyed watching a Curtis Parker fight. I just saw this was up on youtube. His bout with Tony Braxton from AC. Here we go, on the NJ rounds basis.
Official scores were 6-3-1 and 8-2 for Parker and 5-5 Even for a majority decision win. Two things to take from this was that it was a terrific fight and there is no scorecard wrong. Some of these rounds were so close it will test your skills and patience. This was not the same Curtis Parker who was beating Mike Colbert and getting robbed by Hamsho in their first fight. He was burning out fast by this time. Man, Braxton could not miss him with a lead right. It was workrate alone that won this fight for Parker. But, good fight.
Round 1: 10-9 Vargas
Round 2: 10-9 Vargas
Round 3: 10-9 Ike
Round 4: 9-9 Even (Scored the round for Vargas but he had a point deduction for a low blow)
Round 5: 10-10 Even
Round 6: 10-9 Vargas
Round 7: 10-9 Vargas
Round 8: 10-9 Vargas
Round 9: 10-9 Ike
Round 10: 10-9 Ike
Round 11: 10-9 Vargas
Round 12: 10-9 Vargas
Total: 116-112 Vargas
Good scrap and Vargas never fought better in his life. Fast combos for 12 rounds kept Ike in check. Actual scores were 116-111 (twice) and 114-113 all for Vargas.
I must be binging on Ike Quartey lately. I don't know how I missed this match back in the day but here is the controversial bout between Ike Quartey and Vernon Forrest.
Round 1: 10-9 Forrest
Round 2: 10-9 Ike
Round 3: 10-9 Ike
Round 4: 10-9 Forrest
Round 5: 10-10 Even
Round 6: 10-9 Ike
Round 7: 10-9 Forrest
Round 8: 10-10 Even
Round 9: 10-9 Ike (I had this round even but a point deduction from Forrest's score for a low blow)
Round 10: 10-9 Ike
Total: 97-95 Ike Quartey
Actual scores were 95-94 (twice) and 96-93 all for Forrest. Ike should have and did feel hard-done-by from this decision. Although a decent enough fight from two veterans of the game, Ike forced the fight with heavy hands and Vernon just couldn't keep up the speedy combos that were needed to offset Ike. Harold Lederman scored it 97-92 for Ike.
Watched a great old fight today from the '50s out of Chicago stadium. Eduardo Lausse v Bobby Boyd. Two top-ten ranked fighters in a 10 rounder, which rarely happens today. Amazingly, Illinois was utilizing the 10 point must system. So, here we go.
Actual scores were 94-93 Lausse, 95-88 Boyd and 94-91 Boyd for a split decision win for Boyd. Illinois may have adopted the 10 point must system but I do not know their criteria on scoring, because those scores make little sense to me. Regarding the fight, Lausse was your typical Argentine that we have seen through the years. strong as an ox, good jaw, clubbing puncher. Boyd was a slick boxer with a very good jab who didn't mind engaging with a sharp-shooting right hand. I felt it was tit-for-tat throughout until fatigue really got them in the last two rounds. The 9th you could really see them take the round off with a lot of mauling, but in the 10th Lausse was winning the round on my card, but Boyd flurried really well a couple of times during the round which pulled that even. If I gave that to Lausse I would have had a draw, which would also have been a good score. It was a good, hard 10 rounder.
Checked this out today on recommendation, Gaspar Ortega v Charley Scott from MSG. and I gotta say, wow! Phone booth warfare. Scoring on the NY rounds basis.
Round 1: Ortega
Round 2: Scott
Round 3: Scott
Round 4: Even
Round 5: Scott
Round 6: Scott
Round 7: Ortega
Round 8: Ortega
Round 9: Even
Round 10: Scott
Total: 5-3-2 Scott
This bout was fought with close phonebooth-style of infighting, which made for one exciting fight. Man, there is no telling what these two could've do in today's era. Today's fans would be talking about them as all-time greats. But they just happen to come from a very strong era that entertained audiences. Outstanding fight. Incidentally, for those that love stats, Actual scores were 5-4-1, 6-3-1 and 6-1-3 all for Scott.
scartissue wrote: ↑15 Oct 2019, 13:49
Checked this out today on recommendation, Gaspar Ortega v Charley Scott from MSG. and I gotta say, wow! Phone booth warfare. Scoring on the NY rounds basis.
Round 1: Ortega
Round 2: Scott
Round 3: Scott
Round 4: Even
Round 5: Scott
Round 6: Scott
Round 7: Ortega
Round 8: Ortega
Round 9: Even
Round 10: Scott
Total: 5-3-2 Scott
This bout was fought with close phonebooth-style of infighting, which made for one exciting fight. Man, there is no telling what these two could've do in today's era. Today's fans would be talking about them as all-time greats. But they just happen to come from a very strong era that entertained audiences. Outstanding fight. Incidentally, for those that love stats, Actual scores were 5-4-1, 6-3-1 and 6-1-3 all for Scott.
Dan
Did you ever see the two fights between Charley Scott and Benny Paret. Paret's two wins put him in line to fight Griffith. More phonebooth fights. You just don't see much of that today.
scartissue wrote: ↑15 Oct 2019, 13:49
Checked this out today on recommendation, Gaspar Ortega v Charley Scott from MSG. and I gotta say, wow! Phone booth warfare. Scoring on the NY rounds basis.
Round 1: Ortega
Round 2: Scott
Round 3: Scott
Round 4: Even
Round 5: Scott
Round 6: Scott
Round 7: Ortega
Round 8: Ortega
Round 9: Even
Round 10: Scott
Total: 5-3-2 Scott
This bout was fought with close phonebooth-style of infighting, which made for one exciting fight. Man, there is no telling what these two could've do in today's era. Today's fans would be talking about them as all-time greats. But they just happen to come from a very strong era that entertained audiences. Outstanding fight. Incidentally, for those that love stats, Actual scores were 5-4-1, 6-3-1 and 6-1-3 all for Scott.
Dan
Did you ever see the two fights between Charley Scott and Benny Paret. Paret's two wins put him in line to fight Griffith. More phonebooth fights. You just don't see much of that today.
Rog, I was hoping to see Paret-Scott on youtube but all they had was the first and 10th rounds. From what there was, I would love to see their fights in their entirety. Man, Benny and Scott could fight. I'll bet any 'fan' of today would look at their records and say that Paret was the guy that died in the ring and that Scott has a poor record. But that doesn't even begin to tell the story on these two. This was a hard era where you had to entertain or you wouldn't be asked back.
Dan
Did you ever see the two fights between Charley Scott and Benny Paret. Paret's two wins put him in line to fight Griffith. More phonebooth fights. You just don't see much of that today.
Rog, I was hoping to see Paret-Scott on youtube but all they had was the first and 10th rounds. From what there was, I would love to see their fights in their entirety. Man, Benny and Scott could fight. I'll bet any 'fan' of today would look at their records and say that Paret was the guy that died in the ring and that Scott has a poor record. But that doesn't even begin to tell the story on these two. This was a hard era where you had to entertain or you wouldn't be asked back.
In those days, you really had to fight. I mean, fight!
Here are a couple of Ruben Olivares fights I recently scored. The first one is the second fight between Ruben and Rafael Herrera. Ruben just didn't come alive until the last few rounds, like he was in la-la land. Anyways, scoring is on the California system of 1 point for a round, and extra point for a knockdown and none for an even round.
Actual scores were 6-4 (twice) for Herrera and 5-5 draw. Rafael Herrera was about the strongest bantam I have ever seen and is a nightmare working the body. This was pure poison to Ruben who was trying to boil down to make weight. You can't show up for Rafael being weakened in any way.
Still on the Olivares kick, I saw that the Ruben Olivares v David Kotey 15 rounder is up on youtube. Saw it back in '75 and scored it a draw but don't remember my score. Sat down to score and here is how I had it on the 10 point must system employed.
Can you believe it? Again I had it a draw. But also like '75, I still would have called those 2 'slips' in the 2nd round and the 4th round as knockdowns for Kotey. I will give credit to Olivares for something though. Although having trained in every bar leading up to this fight, he certainly ended with a flourish which I felt Kotey did not. But it is what it is. Kotey wins a split with all three judges only one point apart.
Floro was a monster puncher, which made some of the scores a bit tougher. Gaspar would be boxing nicely, taking the round then Floro would bang in something to turn it around. Excellent fight. Actual scores were 97-90, 97-91 and 96-93 all for Floro.
First of all, this was a very hot Griffith in '61 and a past his best Logart. Logart's prime would've been ca. '55-'57, but he had a ton of experience to give Griff a hard time, which he did. When they fought on the outside is was beauty. Griffith had a busy jab followed by a sweet straight right. Logart on the other hand, had one very subtle and sneaky left hook which he caught Griffith with many times coming in. But the fight was mired in what some may call infighting, but in this instance, bordered on mauling. So that took a bit of the edge off it for me. still, I enjoyed the fight with two talented practitioners in there. Incidentally, actual scores were 5-3-2 and 7-3 for Griffith and a 5-5 draw.
This bout has been bothering me for awhile to watch. It is the second fight between Curtis Parker and Mustafa Hamsho. I was very disappointed with this back in the day because Parker, whom I felt was robbed blind in their first encounter, didn't fight up to his standards in this one and I agreed with the decision for Hamsho. Now move on some 30 plus years and it's time to watch it again. I know New Jersey scored on the rounds basis, but the commentators mentioned something I never heard of, saying in NJ if the round is even they go to supplemental scoring. I don't know if they got that wrong and meant the supplemental scoring if the entire scorecard is even like NY had, but it was mentioned twice during the fight. Still, here is how I had it.
Round 1: Parker
Round 2: Hamsho
Round 3: Even
Round 4: Hamsho
Round 5: Parker
Round 6: Hamsho (a point is deducted somewhere from Hamsho for butting)
Round 7: Hamsho
Round 8: Even (a point is deducted somewhere from Parker for some infraction that I'm not sure of)
Round 9: Hamsho
Round 10: Parker
Total: 5-3-2 for Hamsho (I have no idea where to take the points from)
First of all, this was one rough fight. No choir boys here. Years ago when a point was taken from a fighter for an infraction on the rounds basis, they would simply take the round from one fighter and give it to the other. Really dumb when you think of it. Anyway, wild fight. Well worth watching. Actual scores were 5-3-2 and 5-2-3 for Hamsho and a 5-5 draw. When Parker was throwing leather he dominated but the minute he stopped Hamsho was banging him with hard jabs and body shots. The decision was good IMO.
Nordine Oubaali vs Takuma Inoue (WBC World bantamweight title) 2019-11-07
1.10-9 NO
2. 10-9 TI
3. 10-9 NO
4.10-8 NO (Oubaali scores knockdown)
5. 10-9 TI
6. 10-9 TI
7. 10-9 TI
8. 10-9 NO
9.10-9 NO
10. 10-9 NO
11. 10-9 NO
12. 10-9 TI
