Joe Calzaghe - Question Mark

[dirk2686]

Did Pavlik even ever fight at supermiddle?

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

But then bhop beat pavlik so that win imo strengthened calzaghes legacy. Personally I don’t think he challenged himself enough but I have no real doubt that at super middle (not light heavy) he was in the top 3 all time super middles along side Toney and RJJ.

Perhaps but it's very clear that your legacy looks better if you beat the man, rather than someone you scraped to win against in a fight many thought you lost schooled him.

Calzaghe had so few big fights that this is what we're reduced to. You could even argue his legacy is tainted slightly by Lacy ultimately proving himself to be a hype job. I agree based on talent he was absolutely elite but he's the boxing equivalent of a Nadal type tennis player who played Federer once and spent 95% of his career slaughtering guys ranked in the 20's and 30's.

[Finn]

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

But then bhop beat pavlik so that win imo strengthened calzaghes legacy. Personally I don’t think he challenged himself enough but I have no real doubt that at super middle (not light heavy) he was in the top 3 all time super middles along side Toney and RJJ.

Perhaps but it's very clear that your legacy looks better if you beat the man, rather than someone you scraped to win against in a fight many thought you lost schooled him.

Calzaghe had so few big fights that this is what we're reduced to. You could even argue his legacy is tainted slightly by Lacy ultimately proving himself to be a hype job. I agree based on talent he was absolutely elite but he's the boxing equivalent of a Nadal type tennis player who played Federer once and spent 95% of his career slaughtering guys ranked in the 20's and 30's.

I agree with what you are saying. Froch has a superior cv and a has cemented his legacy as being a warrior. yet I think joe would have beaten froch and even Ward. It’s frustrating but at the same time it wasn’t quite the same era. He should have had a couple more fights against top fighters before retiring and he would have an unquestionable legacy.

[chrisjs1985]

Robin Reid , their opponent in kind, picks Froch to beat Calzaghe.

Reid also dislikes Calzaghe on a personal level.

Kessler said Calzaghe was the best fighter he fought in his whole career.

[liamlion]

I have no idea why so many fight fans have such negative views on Joe. It was something he had to endure throughout his top level career. He beat Eubank emphatically; folk said Eubank had been out two years and was rusty. He totally schools Lacy, who the boxing world had been lauding as the most exciting talent the sport had seen since Tyson, suddenly those same pundits started saying that Lacy had been massively overrated. Hopkins employs every dirty trick in the book and Joe still outpoints him comfortably: the neg-heads all dismiss Hopkins as an old man and refuse to readdress the matter when B-Hop goes on to beat several high level fighters over the subsequent five years. As for Joe's victory over Kessler when the Dane was at his absolute peak... Well all the haters conveniently just forget about that one .
In my mind, there is no question mark. British boxers of the past 40 years - Calzaghe, P4P, number 1

You have no Idea? Let me assist, do you know how long it was in terms of years between Eubank and the Lacy fight? Too fecking long is the answer. The years of dross in between were awful and painful. I lived through them, it was often poor quality WBO stuff with an occasional interesting challenge.

To wait 9 1/2 years for a unification fight is not good going and certainly not p4p number 1 type stuff.

Secondly, Eubank had been preparing to fight on that bill for a light-heavyweight fight against Mark Prince, if I recall correct and was drafted in on minimal notice. It was far from prime Eubank. And no, Calzaghe didn't win emphatically. It was a fast start from Joe but watch the last minute of the fight, calzaghe is hanging on desperately. He's made various comments over the years to that effect too.

[Boxerbeetle]

Robin Reid , their opponent in kind, picks Froch to beat Calzaghe.

Reid also dislikes Calzaghe on a personal level.

Kessler said Calzaghe was the best fighter he fought in his whole career.

Didn’t Reid and Calzaghe spend half of their pre-fight press conference arguing over who was better looking?

[chrisjs1985]

Hi there, I've not posted in this part of the forum so sorry about bringing up an old thread. I was responding in the other thread created earlier about who the 10 best British fighters of all-time were.

I'll try to offer a balanced and unbiased breakdown of his career. I think he's "overrated" by those that say matter of fact that he's the best British fighter ever because if you say that you either aren't going back far enough in history or are strictly going off what you've seen in your own lifetime (which is fine) but I've generally found him to be underrated in general by Boxing fans especially American Boxing fans. The truth usually lies in the middle but I'd say overall he's an underrated great.

First of all I think he was an exceptional fighter in the ring. He had great hand speed, good movement, fast feet although his punching technique sometimes wasn't pretty but the volume got the job done as his power overtime did diminish. He was a very adaptable fighter and always seemed in control for the majority of his contests. That ability to adapt on the fly and never look puzzled in the ring is very underrated and beyond an unbeaten record it's hard to show on paper. It's what makes him a tough out for some truly great fighters in and around his weight class in history. His balance was good, his defense wasn't stellar but he wasn't one to catch a ton of punches thanks to that adaptability and ability to turn it up in fights and completely take over. His chin was good too generally though he started to get dropped late in his career I never really saw him "hurt", buzzed perhaps but never did I think he's hurt or in danger.

His career. On paper what's not to like? 46-0 with 32 KO's, won every title at 168 and then became lineal and Ring champion at 175 to cap off his career. Defeated 10 other men who at one time or another held world titles, didn't have any controversial wins (the Reid and Hopkins fights weren't that close) and had a 10 year reign with 21 defenses. Of course the WBO belt wasn't fully respected in 1997 but it's fair to say he was one of the fighters who helped legitimize the belt and it was clear he was always the best at 168. In hindsight was his reign really inferior to Hopkins' at 160? Hopkins was a vacant belt against Segundo Mercado and then didn't unify until years later and his toughest opponent was the much smaller, but legendary Felix Trinidad. Hopkins had a technical draw in there were he just didn't fancy fighting that night and three defenses against Robert Allen. It also ended with him losing (though I believe he won both times) to Jermain Taylor. He was undisputed for six defenses and over three years though. Calzaghe's reign is at least in the argument with Hopkins' no matter what.

Competition
Now it appears this is the part where most have an issue with Calzaghe and I get where the detractors are coming from. From winning the title in October of 1997 to the unification fight vs. Lacy in March of 2006 his career always seemed like one of unfulfillment. Eubank at that time was a good victory for a young, upcoming fighter with limited experience. Sure he wasn't prime so on paper we may look at it and say "Oh well he's supposed to win", but it was a great way to introduce yourself into the division. From there it was a good opponent here and there but a number of injuries, time on the sidelines and utterly abysmal opponents. I don't care what Lacy did or didn't accomplish afterwards. Calzaghe ruined him. He was also an underdog especially with the US press and fans who didn't give him a prayer. That's a brilliant win made even better by the virtuoso performance. The Kessler win is also great given Kessler's stature and momentum coming in. This wasn't the oft-injured, semi-retired Kessler. This was prime Kessler and almost a 50/50 unification fight between two unbeaten champions with Calzaghe being almost a decade older. The Hopkins win is also excellent. Hopkins was 43 (but he was probably juiced to perfection let's face it), lineal champion after dominating Antonio Tarver (himself riding some great form and career momentum) and Winky Wright. He also had enough in the tank to utterly toy with Pavlik in his next fight and go on to unify titles in the division years later. It wasn't an ideal performance due to Hopkins' awful style but it was a clear victory over a fighter rightfully ranked highly on all pound for pound lists.

The rest
Sobot - average opponent but blow out so not a terrible 1st defense
Giminez - average opponent did what he's supposed to
Reid - good opponent recently lost his title but being a rivalry fight was up for it. Joe didn't fight well but got a clear cut win so I'd say it's a good win even though he performed below expectations
Thornberry - crap opponent, awful fight not a good performance despite dominating
Starie - solid domestic level opponent, dominated but awful fight and didn't look good
Sheika - good opponent at the time, also beat Glen Johnson to earn the shot. Excellent performance really looked the part
Woodhall - good opponent, not a world beater but recently relinquished champion. Nice entertaining fight.
Veit - good opponent, three good one's in a row. Veit was unbeaten and everyone expected a hard fight and Joe blew him out. Veit picked up his consistency again until he met Joe again.
McIntyre - awful opponent did what he was supposed to
Brewer - good opponent. Brewer should have won at least one of the Ottke fights and the ref stopped it way too quickly against Echols. Brewer came to fight and this was one of the more entertaining fights of Joe's career though it was a dominant win.
Jiminez - very ordinary opponent and boring fight. Did what he's supposed to
Pudwill - Terrible opponent, maybe the worst. Absolute blow out.
Mitchell - good opponent, ran Ottke very close in Germany and came to fight. Electrifying performance and overcame some adversity in entertaining style.
Mkhtaryen - Average unproven opponent did what he's supposed to.
Salem - Average opponent basically a waste of time and not a good performance.
Veit - Repeat match to a 1st round KO. Veit had rattled off a lot of wins (some decent) and was mandatory.
Ashira - Crap opponent and boring fight. Hurt his hand early and went the distance
Bika - Turns out he was decent and tough as hell. No shame in going the distance but not a pretty fight
Manfredo - Average opponent, undersized and basically just a "name" for the 20th defense due to "The Contender" series. Did what supposed to.
Jones - Badly faded and just a name. Calzaghe did what he wanted as he was supposed to and I think at this point that's all that mattered.

Didn't fight
Collins - Collins pulled out ducked him
Ottke - Wouldn't leave Germany were friendly judging and officiating helped him maintain an "unbeaten" career and Calzaghe was in his right not to go there, kick his ass and get robbed. Calzaghe would have dominated.
Johnson - Joe was in the wrong pulling out so much. Common opponents show Joe was obviously better and had he beaten Sheika he's have gotten the crack then. I refuse to believe the Johnson who was life and death with Woods three times would have given Joe much of a fight.
Hopkins earlier - It's Hopkins' fault. He was about to sign a deal in 2002 with Showtime giving him three fights. A mandatory, a fight with Harry Simon and Calzaghe and he walked away demanding $6m for the Calzaghe fight.
Jones earlier - Calzaghe just wasn't on Jones' radar and I think Warren was happy with that.
Froch - Bad timing. People don't like this but Froch turned the fight down in 2006 because he "wasn't ready" after yapping off for years then Joe vacated because he'd beaten all the champions and took his career to America.
Dawson - He wasn't going to get up for Dawson at that stage.

So overall I'd say his accomplishments, longevity and qualities as a fighter help cover up some of the dross he fought and he unquestionably is a great fighter who had a great career but one which could and should have been better but still a career he and his fans should be rightfully proud of. I'd personally rate him between 7-12, of fighters of the last quarter of a century (I'd personally have him closer to #7), the best British fighter of the last 50 years and as I put him on that "Top 10 British fighters" list #5 all-time from fighters from Britain and undoubtedly one of the top 10 European fighters of all-time.

[ALI]

One last thing I would say is that Carl Froch has proven a big problem for Calzaghe's legacy.

Whilst Joe had fought B class fighters for a long time, Carl Froch - when he rose to prominence often fought the best fighters in the world consistently, fight after fight - it was either a highly ranked contender or a fellow Champion or a former Champion.

Froch was an absolute breath of fresh air.

Sports Network had been pimping Calzaghe and Hatton to us for years, fight after fight, bum after bum, and the fans were getting really fed up of it. Calzaghe was pondering terribly, Hatton was stepping up fight by fight, sort of, but slowly. When Hatton made his move to the world stage, by beating Tyszu in a barnstormer at the MEN, then winning a 2nd world title, then a 3rd in a higher weight class, Calzaghe finally realised it was time for him to step up to the plate too. He then had his big night against Lacy, and apparantly he was very reluctant to take it, and almost pulled out on the night. He went on to fight Kessler, his best win, and an old Hopkins and Jones, but all in all, for such a talent, IMO his career was very much wasted. Had Hatton not made the move to the true world stage, i often wonder if Calzaghe may not have done so also.

Then Froch came along and showed Calazaghe how its really done, Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler, Abraham, Johnson, Ward, Bute, Kessler 2, Groves, Groves 2.

As a fan who lived through it, i will never forgive Calzaghe for not taking on the bigger names in his, and gheir, primes.

[stujones]

Its a question mark for me.

I think he did have a beautifully managed career. I think had he taken the Ricky Hatton route and fought the likes of Jones, Hopkins etc. in their prime then I really don't think he would have had a 0 on his resume. But we ultimately still don't know how good he was and for a 10 year world champion that is pretty poor.

However, I noticed when they were talking about Josh Taylor's accomplishments and looking at modern british greats and also all time greats - I didn't hear one reference to Calzaghe - like he's largely been forgotten about. More people will reference Naz as an ATG over Calzaghe.

I think some of his better wins have been possibly overated - Kessler was the heir apparent and whilst did well was ultimately outclassed by Ward. I think Hopkins' run post Calzaghe - whilst remarkable in its own way was more attainable through careful match making.

So I'm in both camps - had he been mentioned continually as Britains finest - then I think we could look as overated (for me Lennox Lewis will always be higher just in the same era), but being forgotten about when discussing modern greats is underating him.

[ILikeBeer]

Remember when Calzaghe fought Manfredo Jr?

[Ruthless-RKO]

Remember when Calzaghe fought Manfredo Jr?

At Millennium Stadium?? Or MEN?

I think they built him up as a threat..

[ILikeBeer]

Remember when Calzaghe fought Manfredo Jr?

At Millennium Stadium?? Or MEN?

I think they built him up as a threat..

A quick google check tells me it's The Millennium Stadium.

Weren't it on ITV?

[Ruthless-RKO]

At Millennium Stadium?? Or MEN?

I think they built him up as a threat..

A quick google check tells me it's The Millennium Stadium.

Weren't it on ITV?

I believe it was. Most of his fights where.

[polecateddy]

I think people tend to overlook that Calzaghe had chronic hand injuries and still went on to achieve a remarkable set of results. I believe to this day his left hand is so bad he can't even make a fist. To my mind he had extra ordinary stamina, which were possibly in part to all the running he did on the Welsh hills, and amazing hand speed, which really was genetic.

[paddy chavez]

Calzaghe was at a time when we simply didn't have any/many world no1 fighters so the normal route for Warren fighters was to go for a WBO belt and defend it against the easiest fighter they could get ,eubanks did the same so did Benn and hatton so Joe was no different .now Eddie throws his fighters in much quicker which is great for the fans but maybe not so the fighter there's no way Warren would of let cleverly faces kovalev or burns Crawford.

Edit I just realised cleverly fought kovalev in his last fight for Warren..

[Deserter]

I think people tend to overlook that Calzaghe had chronic hand injuries and still went on to achieve a remarkable set of results. I believe to this day his left hand is so bad he can't even make a fist. To my mind he had extra ordinary stamina, which were possibly in part to all the running he did on the Welsh hills, and amazing hand speed, which really was genetic.

That's a great point (and one Coco has also made in previous posts). Calzaghe was smashing guys earlier in his career and had to adapt to more of a 'slapping' style because of his hand problems. To make those adjustments and still keep on winning is quite something.

[stujones]

I think people tend to overlook that Calzaghe had chronic hand injuries and still went on to achieve a remarkable set of results. I believe to this day his left hand is so bad he can't even make a fist. To my mind he had extra ordinary stamina, which were possibly in part to all the running he did on the Welsh hills, and amazing hand speed, which really was genetic.

That's a great point (and one Coco has also made in previous posts). Calzaghe was smashing guys earlier in his career and had to adapt to more of a 'slapping' style because of his hand problems. To make those adjustments and still keep on winning is quite something.

I think though the think Calzaghe critics mention is on this is the hands got worse as he also stepped up in opposition. So how would the power carried over at world class minus the injuries..... would he have been a Naz or would it not have carried over.

So many W12 on his resume when he stepped into world class....... Bruno didn't have the injuries but he did not score even score a KD in world class - but yet sub world class all of his fights ended with a KO victory.

So for me - even that has a question mark..... I'm not saying no he didn't have power, and I am certainly not disputing he had to change cos of his hand damage - its again though a case of guesswork, like it is if we think of Calzaghe vs Hopkins in 2001.

[Deserter]

That's a great point (and one Coco has also made in previous posts). Calzaghe was smashing guys earlier in his career and had to adapt to more of a 'slapping' style because of his hand problems. To make those adjustments and still keep on winning is quite something.

I think though the think Calzaghe critics mention is on this is the hands got worse as he also stepped up in opposition. So how would the power carried over at world class minus the injuries..... would he have been a Naz or would it not have carried over.

So many W12 on his resume when he stepped into world class....... Bruno didn't have the injuries but he did not score even score a KD in world class - but yet sub world class all of his fights ended with a KO victory.

So for me - even that has a question mark..... I'm not saying no he didn't have power, and I am certainly not disputing he had to change cos of his hand damage - its again though a case of guesswork, like it is if we think of Calzaghe vs Hopkins in 2001.

It's not guesswork though Stu - his adaption in style was very clearly visible.

[stujones]

I think though the think Calzaghe critics mention is on this is the hands got worse as he also stepped up in opposition. So how would the power carried over at world class minus the injuries..... would he have been a Naz or would it not have carried over.

So many W12 on his resume when he stepped into world class....... Bruno didn't have the injuries but he did not score even score a KD in world class - but yet sub world class all of his fights ended with a KO victory.

So for me - even that has a question mark..... I'm not saying no he didn't have power, and I am certainly not disputing he had to change cos of his hand damage - its again though a case of guesswork, like it is if we think of Calzaghe vs Hopkins in 2001.

It's not guesswork though Stu - his adaption in style was very clearly visible.

Yes - but it is guess work if he would have had the power to KO even someone like Charles Brewer with his old style and perfect hands. World class boxers have better chins / defence (usually) than non-world class boxers and some of the fighters Joe fought prior to his world title were really rubbish.

He never fought at world class with good hands really - so we just don't know how powerful he was. The signs were that he would carry it up, but sadly its a question mark for me - cos officially he didn't.

[mickey1975]

A quick google check tells me it's The Millennium Stadium.

Weren't it on ITV?

I believe it was. Most of his fights where.

They weren’t. BBC1, ITV, Sky Sports, Setanta all had him a few times.

[Coco]

It's not guesswork though Stu - his adaption in style was very clearly visible.

Yes - but it is guess work if he would have had the power to KO even someone like Charles Brewer with his old style and perfect hands. World class boxers have better chins / defence (usually) than non-world class boxers and some of the fighters Joe fought prior to his world title were really rubbish.

He never fought at world class with good hands really - so we just don't know how powerful he was. The signs were that he would carry it up, but sadly its a question mark for me - cos officially he didn't.

He dropped Eubank even when his hands were bad! Suggests power to me

[Wee Tommy]

He had huge power just badly damaged hands. I despair of posters on here sometimes they just have no clue about boxing/punching and injuries.

I’ve been training with Alex Arthur recently and his opinion of Calzaghe is ‘superhuman’. He rates him as Britain’s best by a mile. Now Alex himself is a machine so I’d take his word over most on this subject.

[jamesmcdonnell]

He had huge power just badly damaged hands. I despair of posters on here sometimes they just have no clue about boxing/punching and injuries.

I’ve been training with Alex Arthur recently and his opinion of Calzaghe is ‘superhuman’. He rates him as Britain’s best by a mile. Now Alex himself is a machine so I’d take his word over most on this subject.

Calzaghe sadly didn't have the resume to back that up, despite the talent. No chance would he have beaten Jones at 168, and judging by his fight with old man Hopkins he wouldn't have beaten him a few years earlier.

I rate Joe, but best UK fighter ever.... Nah.

[lillywhite14]

Neither. He wasted his prime fighting sub par opposition.

I think he was in a particularly weak era for risk taking. If he was about today I’d like to think he’d be moving around to chase fights with the big names as opposed to sitting at home, defending his WBO against mandatory after mandatory.

It’s a shame looking back because he was definitely good enough to mix it with the very best at the time.

[lillywhite14]

He did his hands early in his career didn’t he?

[polecateddy]

I think so. He had quite a busy junior amateur career before taking 3 Senior ABA titles along the way. Stopped Dean Francis, for example, in one of them. I think by the time he'd won the British pro title and beaten then Eubank, hand injury issues were starting to raise their head. A peak Roy Jones would probably have been too much, but I think he beats everyone else on one of his good nights.

You can't really put too much stock in the fact Hopkins ran him close at the end, as I think Calzaghe's injury issues were so acute by then he couldn't spar or hit a heavy bag. Imagine you're going to fight on the world stage and you can't even train half the things you're supposed be doing! At various other stages in his late career I don't think his back was that great either.