Joe Calzaghe - Question Mark

[Counter-puncher]

I'm incapable of impartially judging Calzaghe's record as he gives me sucj a boner on the eye test and have general manlove issues with him

[Cyclops]

Remember when Calzaghe fought Manfredo Jr?

I member it very very well. Stupid overmatched undersized opponent stopped on slaps and MMA style hammer fists which don't have quite the impact with proper boxing gloves and the opponent still standing. Dreadful matchup and fight. This was after Calzaghe was ringside at Clinton Woods vs Glen Johnson too and wrote both off in a post fight interview. Both would have easily two of the best names on his resume.

Off the top of my head Calzaghe could have fought at SMW

Kelly Pavlik
Sven Ottke
Carl Froch
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor

And at LHW

Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Clinton Woods
Glen Johnson

Just wins over 3 or 4 of any of these guys and we would be barely arguing over his record today. He also could have fought better versions of Jones and Hopkins (although Hopkins is a good win)

Pretty much wasted his career fighting bums. I loved Joe at the time but if I'm going to hate on Canelo then I have to pick at the massive holes in Calzaghe's record. He swerved a lot of fights, waited until people got old and fought some proper old shite. He actually had the talent to beat all of these guys too. Prime Dawson at LHW would probably have beaten him but he would have won the rest.

Most of his record is atrocious.

[ewenhay]

He had huge power just badly damaged hands. I despair of posters on here sometimes they just have no clue about boxing/punching and injuries.

I’ve been training with Alex Arthur recently and his opinion of Calzaghe is ‘superhuman’. He rates him as Britain’s best by a mile. Now Alex himself is a machine so I’d take his word over most on this subject.

Calzaghe sadly didn't have the resume to back that up, despite the talent. No chance would he have beaten Jones at 168, and judging by his fight with old man Hopkins he wouldn't have beaten him a few years earlier.

I rate Joe, but best UK fighter ever.... Nah.

Joe should have had a better cv with his talent.

But people also forget that Joe was well past his best when he fought Hopkins and Jones.

It wasn't just the 2 Americans who were past their best.

[polecateddy]

Kelly Pavlik
Sven Ottke
Carl Froch
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor

The suggested list of missing super middle opponents is a load of nonsense. Pavlik and Wright never fought at supermiddle, or certainly not with any form whatsoever. Ottke would probably by his own admission never have taken the fight. Taylor is discredited and Froch was only right at the end of Calzaghe’s career when his hands were shot. Really the only fighter you’d want Calzaghe to have fought was a peak Roy Jones.

[Cyclops]

Kelly Pavlik
Sven Ottke
Carl Froch
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor

The suggested list of missing super middle opponents is a load of nonsense. Pavlik and Wright never fought at supermiddle, or certainly not with any form whatsoever. Ottke would probably by his own admission never have taken the fight. Taylor is discredited and Froch was only right at the end of Calzaghe’s career when his hands were shot. Really the only fighter you’d want Calzaghe to have fought was a peak Roy Jones.

It's not nonsense really is it? Pavlik was the person everybody wanted Joe to fight and there was plenty of speculation about them fighting before Calzaghe settled on Jones for his farewell. Pavlik fought Hopkins at a catchweight of 170 hoping to best Joe and lure him into a fight but it backfired. I don't know why you don't remember this. That said, it certainly is the only name on the list that reasonably could be classed as a duck.

Regarding the other names Winky went all the way up to 175 to fight Hopkins. He was undersized there but even though there was never any talk (I didn't frequent boxing message boards back in those early casual days) that I know of he was a respected name opponent and would have fleshed out Calzaghe's record nicely. Froch was a new upcoming lion and Calzaghe's mandatory. It could have happened. Ottke SHOULD have happened: they were both around at the same time and were both undefeated SMW's. I'm sure they both avoided each other like the plague like you said so my criticism is legit. Jermaine Taylor I'll concede was a name I threw in there probably more to do with the bottle of wine I had with my dinner but he was a respectable opponent kicking around roughly the same weight class with two wins over Hopkins. He was certainly better than Peter Manfredo Jnr as mentioned in the post I was responding to.

Edit: I'll just throw in that I had a look at the details around the Wright-Hopkins fight and it was contested at 170 catchweight same as Pavlik. I've never watched it so I can't really say anything about it but Harold Lederman scored it a draw so Wright was somewhat useful at the weight.

[polecateddy]

I think you're quite wide of the mark. I certainly followed boxing closely through Benn/Eubank into the Calzaghe era, and nobody was clambering for those match ups. Pavlik's alcohol demons surfaced very quickly after stopping Taylor, and his last decent performance where people thought he was going to be special was stopping Gary Lockett in 2008. Calzaghe was already in his final year, and had Jones and Hopkins to finish off with. Froch only arrived in proper world class beating Jean Pascal at the end of 2008, and Calzaghe had been retired for months. The Wright stuff is just not correct. Winky was never on anyone's radar at super-middle, and was only special at light-middle. At that weight he did come over and school some of our domestic level but handy light-middles in the early days. Against Hopkins he was out of his comfort zone, cut and easily schooled. It was effectively a novelty retirement fight. Otkke - nobody in the trade imagined he'd have a chance against Calzaghe, who was a level above. You'd never have got Otkke to budge out of Germany, and he was getting a lot of fishy decisions going his way. I think mainly though Oktte knew it wasn't a smart match for him, and he didn't need it.

[Cyclops]

I think you're quite wide of the mark. I certainly followed boxing closely through Benn/Eubank into the Calzaghe era, and nobody was clambering for those match ups. Pavlik's alcohol demons surfaced very quickly after stopping Taylor, and his last decent performance where people thought he was going to be special was stopping Gary Lockett in 2008. Calzaghe was already in his final year, and had Jones and Hopkins to finish off with. Froch only arrived in proper world class beating Jean Pascal at the end of 2008, and Calzaghe had been retired for months. The Wright stuff is just not right. Winky was never on anyone's radar at super-middle, and was only special at light-middle. At that weight he did come over and school some of our domestic level but handy light-middles in the early days.

That was his comeback after the Hopkins loss wasn't it? I'm not wide of the mark at all on Pavlik. Even Joe himself will acknowledge the Pavlik fight was on the table and, you can fact check this, but I'm pretty sure he parted ways with Warren because Warren wanted him to fight Pavlik and not Jones (amongst other reasons I'm sure).

When did I say anything about Benn or Eubank? I was a little kid when they were fighting. And I just told you Wright was competitive with B-Hop at a higher weight. The list is just fighters of merit around the weight class. Read the post. It says "off the top of my head he could have fought..."

[polecateddy]

Pavlik - Lockett was pre-Hopkins. I think the problem is you're going off databases and records, and you're too young to have watched it all live and read the trade boxing papers at the time. Pavlik was a middleweight, and he was still proving himself there when his bubble suddenly burst against Hopkins. I think part of the issue is you're looking too much around 2008. It's was Calzaghe's final year, and it's remarkable given the state of his hands he came out of it in one piece with an unbeaten record. But he did, and he did it in style considering his issues.

[Cyclops]

Pavlik - Lockett was pre-Hopkins. I think the problem is you're going off databases and records, and you're too young to have watched it all live and read the trade boxing papers at the time. Pavlik was a middleweight, and he was still proving himself there when his bubble suddenly burst against Hopkins.

I watched Hopkins-Pavlik live on Setanta and loved it. I was also reading Boxing News then. I generally post on memory so I concede that Lockett was before Hopkins as I've just had a look at the record.

So I actually watched these fights and wasn't any sort of internet nerd. I only started watching fights on youtube and posting in 2009 when I joined Boxec.

So there goes your theory, Grandad!

[Cyclops]

When was Pavlik's staph infection that stopped him fighting Paul Williams?

[polecateddy]

44 but anyway. I genuinely think Calzaghe if his hands had been better would probably have accepted more light-heavyweight challenges. From a fan point of view, Calzaghe - Michalczewski, the German WBO Champ could have been a fun fight years earlier. Probably much more of a spectacle than chasing after a peak Roy Jones for 12 rounds.

[Cyclops]

44 but anyway. I genuinely think Calzaghe if his hands had been better would probably have accepted more light-heavyweight challenges. From a fan point of view, Calzaghe - Michalczewski, the German WBO Champ could have been a fun fight years earlier. Probably much more of a spectacle than chasing after a peak Roy Jones for 12 rounds.

Fair enough

[stujones]

There was definately a number of fighters he could have / should have fought in his reign.

Ottke is the obvious one
Markus Beyer was another long reigning (over two spells) champion.
Eric Lucas
He fought David Starie but not his conqueror Dean Francis (but again not Calzaghe's fault her).
and yes in the era of fighters moving up and down - why couldn't he have tempted the likes of
Jermain Taylor, Kelly Pavlik, Harry Simon etc.

[polecateddy]

I was a big Dean Francis fan, and it's a bit tragic he dislocated his shoulder when he was coming into his peak years. I'm sure he would have had a shot at Calzaghe otherwise, and probably would have given him a run for his money. Lucas and Beyer were B level champions at best, and not really any different in levels from any number of fighters Calzaghe did fight. Harry Simon - went to jail for running someone over and disappeared off the face of the earth effectively ...and he was a light-middle!

[SAPFO]

To be fair he should’ve thought a lot more, but I honestly think it would’ve beat the lot anyhow

[SAPFO]

I’d love to see Ward vs JC. A game of chess

[Deserter]

I was a big Dean Francis fan, and it's a bit tragic he dislocated his shoulder when he was coming into his peak years. I'm sure he would have had a shot at Calzaghe otherwise, and probably would have given him a run for his money.

We all know the ams and the pros are different but this is still a good trip down memory lane:

[Controversial]

There was definately a number of fighters he could have / should have fought in his reign.

Ottke is the obvious one

JC would have beaten Ottke, assuming it wasn't in Germany otherwise he would have had to KO him to get a draw lol.

[milpool]

For me, the very fact that this thread exists shows that there will always be question marks over JC. No doubting he was good but it will always be of debate about how good he actually was.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Thread was created by myself on 24 Mar 2017.

9 pages.. over 200 posts..

I bump it every now and then.. See what new forum members think..

[SAPFO]

Regarding Hopkins. Was Hopkins not offered $3mill, then changed it to $6mill? We can’t lay the blame squarely on JC

[Cyclops]

Regarding Hopkins. Was Hopkins not offered $3mill, then changed it to $6mill? We can’t lay the blame squarely on JC

Warren said he did, but you never know with these chaps.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... oecalzaghe

[Ruthless-RKO]

Calzaghe raked it in at the end of his career,,

Apparently earned $10m for the Jones fight. He and Jones promoted the fight themselves..

Probably lost $3m. HBO predicted around 500k buys. It did half of that..

[dookus]

Calzaghe v Danny Green would have been fun

[danconnollyeire]

Calzaghe v Danny Green would have been fun

The aussie? Would've been one of Calazghe's mot one sided fights. Green makes Lacy look like Mayweather