Ali vs Frazier 1968

[Syntax Error]

Ali did not have the power nor the physical strength to deter Frazier, so he always would have struggled with Joe.

1968 was Ali's mythical peak; he was 26 and had filled out, but still had 100% speed and could still dance for 15 rounds.

Frazier was in his pomp in '68 and he would have given Ali fits.

I'd take Ali in a very close fight with neither man tasting the canvas.

[hhaehre]

Ali did not have the power nor the physical strength to deter Frazier, so he always would have struggled with Joe.

1968 was Ali's mythical peak; he was 26 and had filled out, but still had 100% speed and could still dance for 15 rounds.

Did he ever dance for 15 rounds? Against anyone?

[Ambling Alp II]

He was moving for most of the Terrell and Chuvalo fights, the only ones where he it 15 rounds to that point. (Apparently the wind kept knocking down Ali's opponents throughout his career.)

Ali was on his feet a lot more in the the 1960s than he was in the 1970s. Anyone watching his fights can see that right away. He was younger, had a lot more energy, was much faster on his feet and was much harder to hit. His hand speed was also much faster in the 1960s.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have hit Ali a lot less, and been hit himself more.
And Frazier had not quite reached his best in 1968.

[Syntax Error]

Ali did not have the power nor the physical strength to deter Frazier, so he always would have struggled with Joe.

1968 was Ali's mythical peak; he was 26 and had filled out, but still had 100% speed and could still dance for 15 rounds.

Did he ever dance for 15 rounds? Against anyone?

Ok, he didn't dance for every minute of every round, but in the 60s, he was dancing the whole length of contests.

In the 70s, he couldn't do that, and would stop after a couple of rounds on average.

The only exception was the Spinks rematch, where he danced the whole contest, but Spinks was little threat and did not put him under pressure the second time around.

[Syntax Error]

He was moving for most of the Terrell and Chuvalo fights, the only ones where he it 15 rounds to that point. (Apparently the wind kept knocking down Ali's opponents throughout his career.)

Ali was on his feet a lot more in the the 1960s than he was in the 1970s. Anyone watching his fights can see that right away. He was younger, had a lot more energy, was much faster on his feet and was much harder to hit. His hand speed was also much faster in the 1960s.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have hit Ali a lot less, and been hit himself more.
And Frazier had not quite reached his best in 1968.

Bear in mind, peak Frazier wasn't that easy to hit with his bobbing and weaving style and Ali was a head hunter who rarely, if ever punched to the body.

I think he would also have found it difficult to hit Frazier a lot more.

[Ambling Alp II]

For a pressure fighter, Frazier was difficult to hit. The point is that Ali would have hit him more often in 1968 than he did in 1971; and Frazier would have hit Ali less in 1968 than he did in 1971.

[elmersalsa]

For a pressure fighter, Frazier was difficult to hit. The point is that Ali would have hit him more often in 1968 than he did in 1971; and Frazier would have hit Ali less in 1968 than he did in 1971.

That's nonsense! Both would have gotten hit a lot in a fight in 1968. Both men quality was exceptional. None of the two at that point in time fought the other one's type of caliber.

[Onetimeonly]

Neither of them could ever have an easy time with the other.

[elmersalsa]

Neither of them could ever have an easy time with the other.

Exactly.

[hhaehre]

Neither of them could ever have an easy time with the other.

[APerno]

What If Ali isn’t stripped. Frazier would have been a mandatory by then. I know Ali was fleet of foot and hand speed at this stage, but I honestly think Joe gives him trouble in any decade. I lean Ali split decision. Joe maybe too green at this point. Thoughts?

Ali by SD with a call for a rematch; Ali goes overseas for awhile and bangs on some Brits for easy money; in the interim Frazier is upended by Foreman; Ali then jumps Foreman before he is ready; Frazier has to wait for his rematch in Manila.

Everyone else if making shit up, why not me.

But anyway I think the '68 fight would have been an even a better fight than '71, although that seems impossible.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

He was moving for most of the Terrell and Chuvalo fights, the only ones where he it 15 rounds to that point. (Apparently the wind kept knocking down Ali's opponents throughout his career.)

Ali was on his feet a lot more in the the 1960s than he was in the 1970s. Anyone watching his fights can see that right away. He was younger, had a lot more energy, was much faster on his feet and was much harder to hit. His hand speed was also much faster in the 1960s.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have hit Ali a lot less, and been hit himself more.
And Frazier had not quite reached his best in 1968.

- What alternate universe you watch fights on?

Terrell made Ali fight a brawl until somewhere around the 5th when Ali shoved his face into the rope that scratched up his eye so bad he couldn't follow punches. Target practice thereafter where Ali couldn't put a wounded fighter away. And got so tired he had to take a rd off.

The ponderous Chuvalo on short notice raked Ali's body all night like Joe would do years later.

Now are we talkin' majic white unicorns here or Ali who never once ran for 10 rds much less 15?

Joe beat better and more legit. comp coming up than Ali and, yeah, 68 is prob when they'd have fought, but look what Joe did to in shape Buster Mathis who had fast hands, skills and power. Ali struggled against a fat, inactive, prediabetic Buster a few years later.

Joe whooped the best and most motivated Ali ever when Ali had become the peoples' champ, and arguably won the lethargic 2, and might've KOed Ali in the 15th in Manilla had not Futch pulled Joe who was bouncing in the corner while Ali was screaming for Dundee to cut his gloves off.

[oogiebe]

He was moving for most of the Terrell and Chuvalo fights, the only ones where he it 15 rounds to that point. (Apparently the wind kept knocking down Ali's opponents throughout his career.)

Ali was on his feet a lot more in the the 1960s than he was in the 1970s. Anyone watching his fights can see that right away. He was younger, had a lot more energy, was much faster on his feet and was much harder to hit. His hand speed was also much faster in the 1960s.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have hit Ali a lot less, and been hit himself more.
And Frazier had not quite reached his best in 1968.

- What alternate universe you watch fights on?

Terrell made Ali fight a brawl until somewhere around the 5th when Ali shoved his face into the rope that scratched up his eye so bad he couldn't follow punches. Target practice thereafter where Ali couldn't put a wounded fighter away. And got so tired he had to take a rd off.

The ponderous Chuvalo on short notice raked Ali's body all night like Joe would do years later.

Now are we talkin' majic white unicorns here or Ali who never once ran for 10 rds much less 15?

Joe beat better and more legit. comp coming up than Ali and, yeah, 68 is prob when they'd have fought, but look what Joe did to in shape Buster Mathis who had fast hands, skills and power. Ali struggled against a fat, inactive, prediabetic Buster a few years later.

Joe whooped the best and most motivated Ali ever when Ali had become the peoples' champ, and arguably won the lethargic 2, and might've KOed Ali in the 15th in Manilla had not Futch pulled Joe who was bouncing in the corner while Ali was screaming for Dundee to cut his gloves off.

I don't remember Joe doing anything in his corner before the 15th round except sitting on his stool begging Eddie to not stop the fight.

[APerno]

He was moving for most of the Terrell and Chuvalo fights, the only ones where he it 15 rounds to that point. (Apparently the wind kept knocking down Ali's opponents throughout his career.)

Ali was on his feet a lot more in the the 1960s than he was in the 1970s. Anyone watching his fights can see that right away. He was younger, had a lot more energy, was much faster on his feet and was much harder to hit. His hand speed was also much faster in the 1960s.

The bottom line is that Frazier would have hit Ali a lot less, and been hit himself more.
And Frazier had not quite reached his best in 1968.

- What alternate universe you watch fights on?

Terrell made Ali fight a brawl until somewhere around the 5th when Ali shoved his face into the rope that scratched up his eye so bad he couldn't follow punches. Target practice thereafter where Ali couldn't put a wounded fighter away. And got so tired he had to take a rd off.

The ponderous Chuvalo on short notice raked Ali's body all night like Joe would do years later.

Now are we talkin' majic white unicorns here or Ali who never once ran for 10 rds much less 15?

Joe beat better and more legit. comp coming up than Ali and, yeah, 68 is prob when they'd have fought, but look what Joe did to in shape Buster Mathis who had fast hands, skills and power. Ali struggled against a fat, inactive, prediabetic Buster a few years later.

Joe whooped the best and most motivated Ali ever when Ali had become the peoples' champ, and arguably won the lethargic 2, and might've KOed Ali in the 15th in Manilla had not Futch pulled Joe who was bouncing in the corner while Ali was screaming for Dundee to cut his gloves off.

You had me all the way up to the last sentence and then you slipped away from me, sliding through a vortex into that other universe you mentioned earlier. Joe took too many punches that day; Futch did the right thing, there was no KO pending.

[Ambling Alp II]

Agreed. Ali was teeing off on Frazier in the 13th and 14th rounds. Frazier was target practice at that point. And the part about Ali screaming for Dundee to cut the gloves off is simply not true.
And Chuvalo certainly wasn't raking Ali with body shots all fight.
Ali "arguably" won the 2nd fight? Do we really have to argue that one?

[HomicideHenry]

Difficult to say since Ali's last fight before exile was Zora Folley in '67 which was about as impressive a win as any that Frazier would have as champion from '68-'72.

I can see Ali having no real problems with Oscar Bonavena, Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry or Jimmy Ellis. Let alone lesser challengers like Bob Foster, Ron Stander, Manuel Ramos, Terry Daniels, and Dave Zyglewicz.

Frazier's peak was clearly '69-'71 a three year window. In '68 I think Frazier, if he were to win, it'd be by a split decision. But I think Ali would probably win by close but unanimous decision. Frazier would be someone he never quite fought before and would finally look vulnerable and there'd be a rematch where Frazier probably would get the better of Ali in that return bout.

I'd be rooting for Frazier all the way though. Eddie Futch knew how to beat Ali better than anyone, and Frazier certainly had the ability to do it even in 1968. It wouldn't have been pretty though. It's a 50/50 fight at that point.

[SteveO]

What alternate universe you watch fights on?

Terrell made Ali fight a brawl until somewhere around the 5th when Ali shoved his face into the rope that scratched up his eye so bad he couldn't follow punches. Target practice thereafter where Ali couldn't put a wounded fighter away. And got so tired he had to take a rd off.

The ponderous Chuvalo on short notice raked Ali's body all night like Joe would do years later.

Now are we talkin' majic white unicorns here or Ali who never once ran for 10 rds much less 15?

Joe beat better and more legit. comp coming up than Ali and, yeah, 68 is prob when they'd have fought, but look what Joe did to in shape Buster Mathis who had fast hands, skills and power. Ali struggled against a fat, inactive, prediabetic Buster a few years later.

Joe whooped the best and most motivated Ali ever when Ali had become the peoples' champ, and arguably won the lethargic 2, and might've KOed Ali in the 15th in Manilla had not Futch pulled Joe who was bouncing in the corner while Ali was screaming for Dundee to cut his gloves off.

I assume you're just having a laugh and stirring things up but if indeed you are serious, I have to ask what alternate universe YOU are in!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Agreed. Ali was teeing off on Frazier in the 13th and 14th rounds. Frazier was target practice at that point. And the part about Ali screaming for Dundee to cut the gloves off is simply not true.
And Chuvalo certainly wasn't raking Ali with body shots all fight.
Ali "arguably" won the 2nd fight? Do we really have to argue that one?

- Stumbled upon this that I left unfinished.

Joe had an ex fighter as a mole in Ali's corner as no doubt Ali had in Joes to monitor corners btwn rds.

And Ali ranked Chuvalo as one of his toughest opponents because of those body shots and pressure that kept Ali on the back foot for most of their first fight George took on short notice.

Joe's guy witnessed the "cut my gloves off" request very similar to the first Liston fight but couldn't make it thru the sea of bodies before Futch pulled the plug.

Frazier rightly was POed about the stoppage. Perhaps Futch did the right thing, but I have to think had the mole been able to relay the info that Joe certainly knew about after the stoppage, there's a good chance Futch lets Joe out for the natural end of the fight.

Why or how you aint been able to pick up on this has it's roots in Ali mythology of his perfection. Certainly prime Ali cut a fine figure in the ring with natural talent oozing out of every pore, but like all fighters he had his chinks in his style that can be exploited as his sad physical deterioration showed.

*****Big shout out for the new mythical section.

Them boys already buried themselves in a blizzard of nonsensical fights, over 280 new topics in 6 weeks time, about 50 a week.

Shame is relevant fantasies like Ali vs Tyson or Dempsey vs Louis are natural era pairings, part and parcel of boxing history that makes it unique among sports and always good for rousing lethargic fans out of their slumber.

[Nile4000]

Ali UD, 10-5 to 11-4.