Why has James 'Buster' Douglas; record changed?

[dawudboxer]

His record used to be 38-6-1-1 from what I remember, why has this now changed to 37-6-1-1?

[Controversial]

His record used to be 38-6-1-1 from what I remember, why has this now changed to 37-6-1-1?

Other sources list his debut as being against Dan O'Malley and thats the one that isn't on boxrec. That fight is sometimes listed as an exhibition so I assume that's why it was removed.

[dawudboxer]

Thanks mate

[Tuan_Jim]

The photos of the fight show O'Malley wearing a headguard. That being said, everyone always knew this, and still the fight remained on Buster's professional record. It does seem odd that Boxrec can deduct wins from him that were included in his record before all of his fights, 20 years after his retirement. It doesn't sit well with me.

Btw: O'Malley once wrote an account of the fight for Boxing Illustrated, after Buster beat Tyson. It's a comedy classic!

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

The photos of the fight show O'Malley wearing a headguard. That being said, everyone always knew this, and still the fight remained on Buster's professional record. It does seem odd that Boxrec can deduct wins from him that were included in his record before all of his fights, 20 years after his retirement. It doesn't sit well with me.

Btw: O'Malley once wrote an account of the fight for Boxing Illustrated, after Buster beat Tyson. It's a comedy classic!

This happens all the time. Old records are proven to be incorrect. New fights found, old listed fights proven incorrect or fictional. If O'Malley wore a headguard then it wasn't professional fight and it should not be in a record. Simple as that. Luckily another 30-year mistake has been corrected.

As a comparison point - take a look on ex-cruiserweight champion S.T. Gordon (including his wiki-page). Do you seriously imply that those completely fictional wins should remain in his record "just because they were there for decades"?????

[wouter]

Even Douglas himself has stated it does not belong on his record and really was an exhibition, with O'Malley wearing headgear and 16 oz gloves.

[Tuan_Jim]

You gents remind me of those "tiresome investigators," as Churchill called them, who proved King Arthur never existed. To quote Bert Sugar: "Boxing historians take boxing too seriously, setting down dates and places with a distressing lack of imagination."

[wouter]

You gents remind me of those "tiresome investigators," as Churchill called them, who proved King Arthur never existed. To quote Bert Sugar: "Boxing historians take boxing too seriously, setting down dates and places with a distressing lack of imagination."

In the words of Terrible Tommy Huxley, it's the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.

[Controversial]

The photos of the fight show O'Malley wearing a headguard. That being said, everyone always knew this, and still the fight remained on Buster's professional record. It does seem odd that Boxrec can deduct wins from him that were included in his record before all of his fights, 20 years after his retirement. It doesn't sit well with me.

Btw: O'Malley once wrote an account of the fight for Boxing Illustrated, after Buster beat Tyson. It's a comedy classic!

So do you think it should stay on his record even though it's proven to be an exhibition?

[Tuan_Jim]

The photos of the fight show O'Malley wearing a headguard. That being said, everyone always knew this, and still the fight remained on Buster's professional record. It does seem odd that Boxrec can deduct wins from him that were included in his record before all of his fights, 20 years after his retirement. It doesn't sit well with me.

Btw: O'Malley once wrote an account of the fight for Boxing Illustrated, after Buster beat Tyson. It's a comedy classic!

So do you think it should stay on his record even though it's proven to be an exhibition?

Buster genuinely beat him up in what was a real fight and the editors of The Ring record book and BI saw fit to include it on his record. Boxrec has made no new discovery. I knew the details of the Dan O'Malley fight in 1990!

[Controversial]

So do you think it should stay on his record even though it's proven to be an exhibition?

Buster genuinely beat him up in what was a real fight and the editors of The Ring record book and BI saw fit to include it on his record. Boxrec has made no new discovery. I knew the details of the Dan O'Malley fight in 1990!

But you said O'Malley was wearing a head guard? So was it a real pro fight or an exhibition that was reported as being a real fight?

[margaret thatcher]

Sounds like it wasn't a pro fight at all when dude is in headgear

[Tuan_Jim]

Buster genuinely beat him up in what was a real fight and the editors of The Ring record book and BI saw fit to include it on his record. Boxrec has made no new discovery. I knew the details of the Dan O'Malley fight in 1990!

But you said O'Malley was wearing a head guard? So was it a real pro fight or an exhibition that was reported as being a real fight?

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

BUT....

My hair-splitting quibbles here are thus: Buster didn't wear headgear for either fight; he fought both men for real, not in exhibition mode; both opponents boxed for money, which is the definition of fighting professionally; and the editors of The Ring record book, Boxing illustrated, all the various commissions Buster boxed under and, for 20 years, Boxrec, all saw fit to recognise these as bouts that belonged on his record. The fights seem to have taken place in a grey area, and it saddens me that faceless internet editors are revising history.

[margaret thatcher]

Seems like an exhibition and certainly not something worse getting sad about, especially if good ol Bus even said it doesn't belong on his record

[Controversial]

But you said O'Malley was wearing a head guard? So was it a real pro fight or an exhibition that was reported as being a real fight?

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

BUT....

My hair-splitting quibbles here are thus: Buster didn't wear headgear for either fight; he fought both men for real, not in exhibition mode; both opponents boxed for money, which is the definition of fighting professionally; and the editors of The Ring record book, Boxing illustrated, all the various commissions Buster boxed under and, for 20 years, Boxrec, all saw fit to recognise these as bouts that belonged on his record. The fights seem to have taken place in a grey area, and it saddens me that faceless internet editors are revising history.

I can't say I know a huge amount about it but I read that O'Malley wasn't paid and Busters dad was is O'Malleys corner. I agree though it needs to be consistent, if one is included and one isn't that isn't right, if head gear is worn though I wouldn't include it.

[wouter]

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

What's your source for Lear wearing headgear? All detailed info on Douglas's early record comes from the June 1990 Boxing Illustrated issue and there isn't any mention of him wearing headgear. Now that I think of it, there may even be a picture of the Lear fight in it, which shows him as a wild-swinging black guy with sideburns without any headgear. I'd have to climb up into my attic to search for the issue to be sure. Perhaps you have it somewhere within reach and are able to check?

[Tuan_Jim]

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

BUT....

My hair-splitting quibbles here are thus: Buster didn't wear headgear for either fight; he fought both men for real, not in exhibition mode; both opponents boxed for money, which is the definition of fighting professionally; and the editors of The Ring record book, Boxing illustrated, all the various commissions Buster boxed under and, for 20 years, Boxrec, all saw fit to recognise these as bouts that belonged on his record. The fights seem to have taken place in a grey area, and it saddens me that faceless internet editors are revising history.

I can't say I know a huge amount about it but I read that O'Malley wasn't paid and Busters dad was is O'Malleys corner. I agree though it needs to be consistent, if one is included and one isn't that isn't right, if head gear is worn though I wouldn't include it.

O'Malley says he was paid $200. Buster's dad was in Buster's corner, but you are right that there is a connection between them though as Billy Douglas trained O'Malley from a young lad and will have been in his corner in his other fights. The opponent dropped out on the day and Billy called O'Malley up and begged him to substitute!

[Tuan_Jim]

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

What's your source for Lear wearing headgear? All detailed info on Douglas's early record comes from the June 1990 Boxing Illustrated issue and there isn't any mention of him wearing headgear. Now that I think of it, there may even be a picture of the Lear fight in it, which shows him as a wild-swinging black guy with sideburns without any headgear. I'd have to climb up into my attic to search for the issue to be sure. Perhaps you have it somewhere within reach and are able to check?

Hold off, I have a copy easier to hand. Will check it later tonight. If you don't hear back from me it's because I discovered I was wrong.

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

Just one more notice to a discussion - being paid is NO MARK of a professional fight. Even myself as a very mediocre 16-year old junior amateur was already offered money in "a brown envelope" for a fight once (although I didn't end up taking that fight). F ex German Bundesliga "amateur" boxers have been salaried representatives of their respective teams for decades,

[Tuan_Jim]

Yes, O'Malley, boxing under the name Danny Banks, wore headgear. Mike Lear also wore headgear and Boxrec continues to include that in Buster's record. Buster's pro debut proper was a three round KO of Mike Rodgers.

What's your source for Lear wearing headgear? All detailed info on Douglas's early record comes from the June 1990 Boxing Illustrated issue and there isn't any mention of him wearing headgear. Now that I think of it, there may even be a picture of the Lear fight in it, which shows him as a wild-swinging black guy with sideburns without any headgear. I'd have to climb up into my attic to search for the issue to be sure. Perhaps you have it somewhere within reach and are able to check?

I've leafed through the June 90 Boxing Illustrated and to say the early record of Buster Douglas is obscure and confusing is an understatement. The magazine contradicts itself multiple times. Dan O'Malley writes a funny story about his fight with Buster in which he says he was his first professional opponent. The pictures show him wearing a headguard but the captions reiterate he was Buster's first pro opponent. A different article states Buster's early fights were billed as exhibitions and that his "formal professional debut" was versus Mike Rodgers. But then there is a fight-by-fight analysis of his career in which Dan (Dan O'Malley) Banks is still his first pro opponent, then Michael Lear, then Mike Rodgers. This article includes a picture of Douglas/Lear where the caption contradicts the earlier statement about Rodgers being his pro debut by stating Lear was Douglas' second pro fight.... Pictures of early opponents are Tim Johnson, Hubert Adams, a poleaxed Dan Banks-O'Malley and, yes, Mike Lear, who is indeed without headguard. Given the weird, illusory nature of Buster's early career, I've concluded that Lear is wearing an afro-shaped headguard he had specially constructed for the fight.

[locoxelbox]

Just one more notice to a discussion - being paid is NO MARK of a professional fight. Even myself as a very mediocre 16-year old junior amateur was already offered money in "a brown envelope" for a fight once (although I didn't end up taking that fight). F ex German Bundesliga "amateur" boxers have been salaried representatives of their respective teams for decades,

Top amateurs have been paid good money to box as long as I can remember. In countries where amateur boxers could draw a good crowd they could get more than 1000 USD back in the 80íes and probably 70´ies.
In many countries even juniors and debutants can get paid 20, 50 or 100 USD or get tickets to sell to family and friends and get even more. So yes, being paid is NO MARK of a professional fight.