Wait And See
Since J.C. Chavez Jr. lost to Canelo more than two years ago Junior has had only one fight against an unranked fighter in the small pueblo of San Juan de Los Lagos in the state of Jalisco,Mexico. The archives show that Chavez stopped his opponent. Tonight, Chavez is back in there again ,this time against a tough opponent who's ranked in the top five,Daniel Jacobs. He was a loser by decision to Canelo and Triple G previously.
It's hard to figure where this is going to go. For me,Chavez has always been his worst enemy. His performances for the most part have lacked the fire in the belly. He's battled drugs and alcohol like his father did near the end of his career. Junior blames dad for being a poor role model. Junior's showdown with Alvarez for bragging rights in Mexico was a disappointment. Chavez's lackluster performance soured the Mexican aficianados.Even dad couldn't stay around for the final bell.He was that disgusted.His son's effort was dismal. However,prior to that fight the Mexican fans were split down the middle of who was the most popular. After Canelo won big,Junior's fans threw him under bus.
In the past months I've heard talk below the border that this time Junior is taking fighting seriously. He's training hard and is in the best shape of is life. But I think everyone is going to wait and see.
I saw one of Junior's first fights.it was in a fancy nightclub in Tijuana. Of course everyone was making a big deal about it. But I could never understand why dad didn't start his boy off on the proper track.Junior hadn't any amateur fights under his belt before he turned pro. The first twenty or so fights he had as a professional was like an amateur apprenticeship.The fight I saw in Tijuana was against an American(that was part of the draw)and it left me scratching my head. OK.Junior was just starting out so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But subsequent fights weren't much better. He didn't have the snap in his punches. His eyes were not of the tiger.Junior was undefeated after 47 fights when he went into the ring with Sergio Martinez. Except for the last round Junior had lost all the rest. He had stepped up in class and looked classless.
Many in Junior's camp,including dad,thought that Junior was drained when making the middleweight poundage so he tried fighting for a vacant light heavy belt.Well,I don't think the weight thing had anything to do with it. Junior looked horrible failing to answer the bell for the 9 nth round.Prior to the ending, Junior was shutout on all the scorecards.
But Mexico still wanted to see what would happen if Canelo and Junior faced off against each other. Triple G was at the time considered the best middleweight out there. Junior was in a position to make some big money if he could have gotten into a round robin with the likes of Canelo and Golovkin. But Junior showed that he wasn't in their league.
Tonight's fight with Jacobs will be Junior's last chance to reach the echelons of the division's best. He's 33 years old,been on the back burner for a couple of years,and he's fighting a guy who went the route with Alvarez and Golovkin losing close decisions. The fight with Jacobs is going to take place in Phoenix,Arizona. It's not big enough to warrant Las Vegas or Madison Square Garden. So we'll just have to wait and see.Can Junior finally get it together? I'm not going to hold my breath.
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
Classic American West Coast Boxing
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dagosd2000
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Bound In Chains
I was reading that Julio Chavez Jr.,after surrendering last night in the ring in Phoenix against Daniel Jacobs,was pelted with garbage.I bet the pelters were all Mexican. Latins have a way with idols who let them down whether it's in a war,a bullfight, or a boxing match.If a Latino is projecting the "macho" image he better succeed triumphantly,all the time.,If he falls flat on his face,he gets off easy if they throw last night's leftovers in his direction.
Chris Columbus was on top of the world when he discovered the new one in 1492.. But his accomplishment ,in a way,was an affront to all the other Latin males who wished they could have basked in his aura. In the end Chris was sent back to Spain manacled and thrown in prison, He didn't do anything wrong. He just got too big for his britches.Or maybe he blew too wind into his sails.
Pancho Villa,the Centaur Of The North,the fearless general,conquerer of the assassin Huerta, was ambushed as he was driving his big Oldsmobile in the city of Parral. He wasn't so macho no more. They even gave him the coup de gras and stole his head from the cemetery.
Il Duce Mussolini,the fascist dictator who got the trains to run on time in Italy(and not much else of any good),was shot to death with his mistress by partisans. Their bodies were taken to gas station in Milan and hung upside down.
If you're a Latin American hero then watch your back. You never know when your compadre is the hombre tomorrow that's going to tie you up in front of the adobe wall and shoot your body full of lead.
We Americans get a lot of mileage talking about Roberto Duran's "No Mas",but think what it has been like for Manos De Piedras to go back to Panama and make the excuse that he ate too much carne asada that caused him to get a tummy ache and that's why he walked away from Ray Leonard. Forget the first fight with Leonard,his victories over DeJesus,even his KO of the undefeated Davey Moore.That night in New Orleans he left a taint on his legacy that the people of Panama and the Latino community will never let him forget.
If you're going to check out do it like the boy cadets in Mexico City,the Ninos De Heroes, when they wrapped themselves in the Mexican Flag and jumped smashing themselves to the ground when they refused to surrender to the American troops.
So last night the aficianados had had it up to their sombreros with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. He's lucky that all he got was some hot dog wrappers and half filled beer cups thrown in his face. He'll never live that one down. But then again,they didn't put him in front of that adobe wall neither.
Pancho Villa
I was reading that Julio Chavez Jr.,after surrendering last night in the ring in Phoenix against Daniel Jacobs,was pelted with garbage.I bet the pelters were all Mexican. Latins have a way with idols who let them down whether it's in a war,a bullfight, or a boxing match.If a Latino is projecting the "macho" image he better succeed triumphantly,all the time.,If he falls flat on his face,he gets off easy if they throw last night's leftovers in his direction.
Chris Columbus was on top of the world when he discovered the new one in 1492.. But his accomplishment ,in a way,was an affront to all the other Latin males who wished they could have basked in his aura. In the end Chris was sent back to Spain manacled and thrown in prison, He didn't do anything wrong. He just got too big for his britches.Or maybe he blew too wind into his sails.
Pancho Villa,the Centaur Of The North,the fearless general,conquerer of the assassin Huerta, was ambushed as he was driving his big Oldsmobile in the city of Parral. He wasn't so macho no more. They even gave him the coup de gras and stole his head from the cemetery.
Il Duce Mussolini,the fascist dictator who got the trains to run on time in Italy(and not much else of any good),was shot to death with his mistress by partisans. Their bodies were taken to gas station in Milan and hung upside down.
If you're a Latin American hero then watch your back. You never know when your compadre is the hombre tomorrow that's going to tie you up in front of the adobe wall and shoot your body full of lead.
We Americans get a lot of mileage talking about Roberto Duran's "No Mas",but think what it has been like for Manos De Piedras to go back to Panama and make the excuse that he ate too much carne asada that caused him to get a tummy ache and that's why he walked away from Ray Leonard. Forget the first fight with Leonard,his victories over DeJesus,even his KO of the undefeated Davey Moore.That night in New Orleans he left a taint on his legacy that the people of Panama and the Latino community will never let him forget.
If you're going to check out do it like the boy cadets in Mexico City,the Ninos De Heroes, when they wrapped themselves in the Mexican Flag and jumped smashing themselves to the ground when they refused to surrender to the American troops.
So last night the aficianados had had it up to their sombreros with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. He's lucky that all he got was some hot dog wrappers and half filled beer cups thrown in his face. He'll never live that one down. But then again,they didn't put him in front of that adobe wall neither.
Pancho Villa
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Just A Plop
Yesterday when I gave my two cents regarding Julio Cesar Chavez Jr's effort against Daniel Jacobs,I used several examples of famous Latinos. When they fell from grace their lives and careers came tumbling down hard. But their tragedies are what literary pundits would call "Shakesperean". When a king or a president for example is taken down his drop is a mighty distance. It's an epic fall.It's "Shakespearean." When the average Joe on the street gets his pink slip from his job his tragedy doesn't take on the magnitude of a king or a president.It doesn't have the significance of Roberto Duran,who many consider the best lightweight who ever put on the gloves. Or the revolutionary Pancho Villa who rose from obscurity at the start of the revolt and became the greatest general and the most powerful figure in Mexico.Italy's strongman Benito Mussolini was a mentor in a sense for the new fledgling dictator of Germany,Adolf Hitler. And what more can you say about Christopher Columbus? He sure proved the world wasn't flat.
But Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. was never exalting in the atmosphere of these previous mentioned. His fall into the club of the mortals was just a plop. He was never a great fighter. They invented some phony titles for him that he won against some no name fighters more or less. His defeats at the hands of Martinez,Alvarez,and the other night against Jacobs validated the façade that whirled around him. He lived off his father's name.He would have been forgotten long ago if is dad wasn't one boxing's greatest.
A few weeks ago I said that athletes want to win primarily themselves. Well,lwatching the replay of Junior's fight against Jacob's they showed glimpses of dad sitting at ringside. There he was as usual at his son's fights wearing the "Chavez" headband.When his son quit,the old man looked sick. Most of Junior's followers had abandoned ship a long time ago,but dad will never throw in the towel. He loves his son.He prays for a miracle. He'll never take off the rose colored glasses. But getting back to what I opened this paragraph with:why couldn't Junior wanted to win this one for the old man?
Hitler told one of his secretaries in the bunker just before he killed himself that he never wanted children because history tells us that the offspring of great men are usually a bunch of nobodies,mediocre,even a little bit slow on the uptake. Usually the sons of the great fighters,if wanting to carry on with their fathers' legacies,never reach the pinnacles of their fathers. Julio Cesar Chavez Junior will now have to get on with his life without the fans standing behind him anymore. He's finished as a fighter.But dad will never leave his side. He's lucky.He should be thankful.
But before I end this piece.Hitler must have really had some balls to tell his secretary that the offspring of great men wind up not even being a footnote in history. Adolf Hitler Jr. sounds a lot more sh---y than Julio Cesar Chavez the 2nd.
Roberto Duran
Yesterday when I gave my two cents regarding Julio Cesar Chavez Jr's effort against Daniel Jacobs,I used several examples of famous Latinos. When they fell from grace their lives and careers came tumbling down hard. But their tragedies are what literary pundits would call "Shakesperean". When a king or a president for example is taken down his drop is a mighty distance. It's an epic fall.It's "Shakespearean." When the average Joe on the street gets his pink slip from his job his tragedy doesn't take on the magnitude of a king or a president.It doesn't have the significance of Roberto Duran,who many consider the best lightweight who ever put on the gloves. Or the revolutionary Pancho Villa who rose from obscurity at the start of the revolt and became the greatest general and the most powerful figure in Mexico.Italy's strongman Benito Mussolini was a mentor in a sense for the new fledgling dictator of Germany,Adolf Hitler. And what more can you say about Christopher Columbus? He sure proved the world wasn't flat.
But Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. was never exalting in the atmosphere of these previous mentioned. His fall into the club of the mortals was just a plop. He was never a great fighter. They invented some phony titles for him that he won against some no name fighters more or less. His defeats at the hands of Martinez,Alvarez,and the other night against Jacobs validated the façade that whirled around him. He lived off his father's name.He would have been forgotten long ago if is dad wasn't one boxing's greatest.
A few weeks ago I said that athletes want to win primarily themselves. Well,lwatching the replay of Junior's fight against Jacob's they showed glimpses of dad sitting at ringside. There he was as usual at his son's fights wearing the "Chavez" headband.When his son quit,the old man looked sick. Most of Junior's followers had abandoned ship a long time ago,but dad will never throw in the towel. He loves his son.He prays for a miracle. He'll never take off the rose colored glasses. But getting back to what I opened this paragraph with:why couldn't Junior wanted to win this one for the old man?
Hitler told one of his secretaries in the bunker just before he killed himself that he never wanted children because history tells us that the offspring of great men are usually a bunch of nobodies,mediocre,even a little bit slow on the uptake. Usually the sons of the great fighters,if wanting to carry on with their fathers' legacies,never reach the pinnacles of their fathers. Julio Cesar Chavez Junior will now have to get on with his life without the fans standing behind him anymore. He's finished as a fighter.But dad will never leave his side. He's lucky.He should be thankful.
But before I end this piece.Hitler must have really had some balls to tell his secretary that the offspring of great men wind up not even being a footnote in history. Adolf Hitler Jr. sounds a lot more sh---y than Julio Cesar Chavez the 2nd.
Roberto Duran
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A House Too Far Away
Awhile back I was having lunch in Oceanside ,California at a touristy Mexican restaurant near the water with the former WBC lightweight champion Rodolfo Gonzalez when I asked him if he ever goes to Tijuana anymore.
"No.I don't go back. Since my mother died I don't go back."
We were sitting outside in the patio.There was a slight chill in the air coming in from the ocean breeze.The place had just opened.We were the only customers. A white guy surfer looking type waiter wearing a colorful shirt came over to our table to take our orders.He stood there not saying nothing.
"I'll go with the rolled tacos,"I said perusing the menu.
"Do you want guacamole?"he asked.
"You mean it doesn't come with guacamole?"
"No.it's extra,"answered the waiter.
"Give me the rolled tacos then with the guacamole and I'll have a Coke.Do you have hot sauce?"
"Only Tabasco sauce."
"Don't you have any chilis?"
"No.Just Tabasco sauce and it's the mild kind,"said the waiter vacantly.
Rodolfo was still squinting at the menu.
"I'll have the tamales,"he said
"And what to drink?"
"I'll have iced tea,"said Rodolfo.
"Be careful when I bring back the plates,"said the waiter. "They're very hot."
The waiter walked away back inside the kitchen.
"Didn't you tell me once that you have a house in Tijuana?"I probed Rodolfo.
"When I won the championship from Carmona I bought a house by the racetrack for my mother to live in."
"Didn't you also buy a bar?"
"I bought a bar in the Coahuila,"said Rodolfo smiling.
"How come all ex fighters buy a bar?"I asked smiling back at him.
"That didn't last long.Too many problems with owning a bar."
So who lives in your house now?"
"My brother.But I made a mistake of giving him the deed.."
"How's that?"
"The house is in need of fixing and he doesn't have any money to fix it. He wants me to pay for it."
"So what are you going to do?"
"Nothing. I don't have any money either and I don't want to go down there.There's nothing for me in Tijuana anymore."
"Do you ever go back to Guadalajara?"
"Everyone is practically gone now. My uncle Jose Becerra died not to long ago."
"I read that."
"He had been sick for some time.And my cousin Alacran Torres I talk with on the phone sometimes.My cousins I don't hear from them anymore.It was such a long time ago."
"My wife and I want to sell the house in Jiquilpan,"I said.
"You told me that you wanted to live there some day."
"Not anymore. Things are getting pretty tough down there. Did you know that food is more expensive than up here?"
" I believe it."
"Gasoline,common commodities like a television set or a refrigerator.A car.With what people make down there I don't see how they can make ends meet."
" I remember fighting in Jiquilpan,"said Rodolfo. "The people they loved to see me fight."
"There isn't much going on down there with the fights.The kids today would rather take their chances working for the cuartels than going to the gym and training to being a fighter."
Rodolfo didn't say anything looking off to the side.
"We want to sell our house but we won't get the money back that we put into it,"I said.".At one time someone made us a good offer but we didn't want to sell the house then.We couldn't get that kind of money now."
"I don't know what I can do with the house in Tijuana,"said Rodolfo. "My brother is happy living there I guess."
"I guess we're both stuck,"I said.
"I try not to think about it,"said Rodolfo.
"Me too.But I'm a worrier."
The waiter came over with the two plates of food.
"Be careful,"he said setting the food on the table."The plates are very hot.They just came out of the microwave."
Rodolfo Gonzalez at last year's West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame ceremony
Awhile back I was having lunch in Oceanside ,California at a touristy Mexican restaurant near the water with the former WBC lightweight champion Rodolfo Gonzalez when I asked him if he ever goes to Tijuana anymore.
"No.I don't go back. Since my mother died I don't go back."
We were sitting outside in the patio.There was a slight chill in the air coming in from the ocean breeze.The place had just opened.We were the only customers. A white guy surfer looking type waiter wearing a colorful shirt came over to our table to take our orders.He stood there not saying nothing.
"I'll go with the rolled tacos,"I said perusing the menu.
"Do you want guacamole?"he asked.
"You mean it doesn't come with guacamole?"
"No.it's extra,"answered the waiter.
"Give me the rolled tacos then with the guacamole and I'll have a Coke.Do you have hot sauce?"
"Only Tabasco sauce."
"Don't you have any chilis?"
"No.Just Tabasco sauce and it's the mild kind,"said the waiter vacantly.
Rodolfo was still squinting at the menu.
"I'll have the tamales,"he said
"And what to drink?"
"I'll have iced tea,"said Rodolfo.
"Be careful when I bring back the plates,"said the waiter. "They're very hot."
The waiter walked away back inside the kitchen.
"Didn't you tell me once that you have a house in Tijuana?"I probed Rodolfo.
"When I won the championship from Carmona I bought a house by the racetrack for my mother to live in."
"Didn't you also buy a bar?"
"I bought a bar in the Coahuila,"said Rodolfo smiling.
"How come all ex fighters buy a bar?"I asked smiling back at him.
"That didn't last long.Too many problems with owning a bar."
So who lives in your house now?"
"My brother.But I made a mistake of giving him the deed.."
"How's that?"
"The house is in need of fixing and he doesn't have any money to fix it. He wants me to pay for it."
"So what are you going to do?"
"Nothing. I don't have any money either and I don't want to go down there.There's nothing for me in Tijuana anymore."
"Do you ever go back to Guadalajara?"
"Everyone is practically gone now. My uncle Jose Becerra died not to long ago."
"I read that."
"He had been sick for some time.And my cousin Alacran Torres I talk with on the phone sometimes.My cousins I don't hear from them anymore.It was such a long time ago."
"My wife and I want to sell the house in Jiquilpan,"I said.
"You told me that you wanted to live there some day."
"Not anymore. Things are getting pretty tough down there. Did you know that food is more expensive than up here?"
" I believe it."
"Gasoline,common commodities like a television set or a refrigerator.A car.With what people make down there I don't see how they can make ends meet."
" I remember fighting in Jiquilpan,"said Rodolfo. "The people they loved to see me fight."
"There isn't much going on down there with the fights.The kids today would rather take their chances working for the cuartels than going to the gym and training to being a fighter."
Rodolfo didn't say anything looking off to the side.
"We want to sell our house but we won't get the money back that we put into it,"I said.".At one time someone made us a good offer but we didn't want to sell the house then.We couldn't get that kind of money now."
"I don't know what I can do with the house in Tijuana,"said Rodolfo. "My brother is happy living there I guess."
"I guess we're both stuck,"I said.
"I try not to think about it,"said Rodolfo.
"Me too.But I'm a worrier."
The waiter came over with the two plates of food.
"Be careful,"he said setting the food on the table."The plates are very hot.They just came out of the microwave."
Rodolfo Gonzalez at last year's West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame ceremony
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I won't hold my breath
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Shadowplay
My favorite fighter I saw train in the gym several times. When Jose Napoles was in Tijuana to prepare for his fight with American journeyman,Herbie Lee,Jose worked out at the CREA Gym,the government owned facility in the Zona Rio, and the Tijuana's firefighter's gym that was upstairs between the old Tijuana jail and the fire station.At that time(1968) the only fights that I had seen of Napoles were on Mexican TV. I could see that he was slowing down his pace in the ring as his fights ticked by. He wasn't bouncing around so much like his fellow countrymen Luis Rodriguez,Benny Paret, and Jose Legra. Napoles was more deliberate though he still wanted to show that he was the boss from the beginning round one. By setting down on his feet more he could deliver stronger blows even though he had captured the hearts of the fans with running up strings of KO's since coming over from Cuba.
It's interesting to see how the great fighters train almost as mech as seeing the manifestations of that training come to bear inside the square circle. Napoles trained like he looked in the ring-smooth and relaxed.He didn't look like he was breaking his ass,but you could tell that every effort was marked with efficiency in mind. Two things jumped out at me with Jose's exercises.One:he warmed up like many fighters by shadow boxing in front of the mirror and end up doing the same drill inside the ring.By watching him shadowbox you could see that "smooth as butter" in his style. . When I visited him in Ciudad Juarez a few years back he told me that he focused on his opponents between the man's shoulders. He said punches are started at the shoulders. He could tell when a fighter was tipping off his punches by watching a flinch at the shoulders. He said all fighters can't help but do this. When watching him shadowbox I could see that he was envisioning looking at the other guy's shoulders and thus reacting with a defensive or countering move.
Another of Jose's methods of prepping was sparring a round(or maybe less)by not throwing any punches. He wouldn't run away but wanted to get a feel of what his sparring partner was going to work on him. Napoles liked to get in close,slip,squirm,and tie up wanting to reduce the power of the other man's attack. Often,when Jose would go on the offense, he deliberately took the steam off his punches.He wanted to carry his sparring partner a little so he wouldn't get too "gun shy." All the while he was getting a "feel" for his adversary. Jose Napoles was the most efficient fighter I've ever seen.He went 114 and 1 in the amateurs and defended his title 14 times. Making it look"easy" comes with hard and intelligent practice.
Rick Farris told me a story when Napoles was getting ready for his first fight with Hedgemon Lewis in LA. Rick was on the undercard for that fight. Rick,along with Napoles, were training at the Main Street Gym. By that time Napoles was riding the crest of his fistic wave. He was also in the early stages of becoming his own worst enemy. When Jose walked into the gym Rick could smell the booze on his breath. Rick said that Jose was arrogantly running everyone off the training bags because HE wanted to use them. I guess Phil Silver,one of the local gym rats,said something regarding Jose's indiscretions, and Jose ,upon hearing of these disapprovals,went over to where Silver was sitting down and spit in his face.
I didn't ask Rick if Napoles did any shadowboxing that day. Maybe the Mantequilla Man had supplemented spitting and tequila into his training routine by that time.
Jose Napoles
My favorite fighter I saw train in the gym several times. When Jose Napoles was in Tijuana to prepare for his fight with American journeyman,Herbie Lee,Jose worked out at the CREA Gym,the government owned facility in the Zona Rio, and the Tijuana's firefighter's gym that was upstairs between the old Tijuana jail and the fire station.At that time(1968) the only fights that I had seen of Napoles were on Mexican TV. I could see that he was slowing down his pace in the ring as his fights ticked by. He wasn't bouncing around so much like his fellow countrymen Luis Rodriguez,Benny Paret, and Jose Legra. Napoles was more deliberate though he still wanted to show that he was the boss from the beginning round one. By setting down on his feet more he could deliver stronger blows even though he had captured the hearts of the fans with running up strings of KO's since coming over from Cuba.
It's interesting to see how the great fighters train almost as mech as seeing the manifestations of that training come to bear inside the square circle. Napoles trained like he looked in the ring-smooth and relaxed.He didn't look like he was breaking his ass,but you could tell that every effort was marked with efficiency in mind. Two things jumped out at me with Jose's exercises.One:he warmed up like many fighters by shadow boxing in front of the mirror and end up doing the same drill inside the ring.By watching him shadowbox you could see that "smooth as butter" in his style. . When I visited him in Ciudad Juarez a few years back he told me that he focused on his opponents between the man's shoulders. He said punches are started at the shoulders. He could tell when a fighter was tipping off his punches by watching a flinch at the shoulders. He said all fighters can't help but do this. When watching him shadowbox I could see that he was envisioning looking at the other guy's shoulders and thus reacting with a defensive or countering move.
Another of Jose's methods of prepping was sparring a round(or maybe less)by not throwing any punches. He wouldn't run away but wanted to get a feel of what his sparring partner was going to work on him. Napoles liked to get in close,slip,squirm,and tie up wanting to reduce the power of the other man's attack. Often,when Jose would go on the offense, he deliberately took the steam off his punches.He wanted to carry his sparring partner a little so he wouldn't get too "gun shy." All the while he was getting a "feel" for his adversary. Jose Napoles was the most efficient fighter I've ever seen.He went 114 and 1 in the amateurs and defended his title 14 times. Making it look"easy" comes with hard and intelligent practice.
Rick Farris told me a story when Napoles was getting ready for his first fight with Hedgemon Lewis in LA. Rick was on the undercard for that fight. Rick,along with Napoles, were training at the Main Street Gym. By that time Napoles was riding the crest of his fistic wave. He was also in the early stages of becoming his own worst enemy. When Jose walked into the gym Rick could smell the booze on his breath. Rick said that Jose was arrogantly running everyone off the training bags because HE wanted to use them. I guess Phil Silver,one of the local gym rats,said something regarding Jose's indiscretions, and Jose ,upon hearing of these disapprovals,went over to where Silver was sitting down and spit in his face.
I didn't ask Rick if Napoles did any shadowboxing that day. Maybe the Mantequilla Man had supplemented spitting and tequila into his training routine by that time.
Jose Napoles
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Eyesight For The Blind
Before the advent of television there wasn't a whole lot of celluloid out there where we could sit back and watch and analyze our favorite athletes. They played 154 baseball games back in the day but how many swings of the bat are there in the film archives of Babe Ruth doing his homerun hit? Maybe a few innings worth? Boxing doesn't rate much better but at least an entire fight ,when filmed, there's evidence of. Often the film is grainy and the speed is erratic like a Keystone Kops chase.. The "mythical fight" category on BoxRec is meekly assisted by the scant footage of legends like Johnson,Ketchel,Leonard,and Gans. Some of the posters wade along in conjecture..No Harry Greb to be seen on film.I'm sure they just didn't make up his nickname "The Human Windmill,"but we'd sure love to see evidence of those blows. The great Jack Britton fought in the ring close to 200 times,but they never brought the moving picture camera inside the arena.
However,even some of the immortals that we can catch on YouTube leave us scratching our heads. Stanley Ketchel's encounters with Billy Papke(the last time they fought) and Stan's White hope title shot against Johnson make me wonder what they see in the guy. The Papke affair is a model of a holding and clinching fest. These two got so close to each other I'm surprised afterwards they didn't run off to Reno and get married. We're familiar with Papke losing his fight and his front teeth to Lil' Arthur in Colma. Watching both fights I could count on Captain Hook's bad hand how many times "The Michigan Assassin" threw his jab. I don't think he had one. He kept his ands down by his side,his chin sticking out like "I dare you to hit me",and lunged like a gorilla when he threw his punches. Johnson even remarked after removing Stan's choppers from his glove that he was surprised by Ketchel's lack of defense.
The thread about why Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the best P4P of course was going to be countered by debunkers. One poster believes Greb was a better P4P. But without any film of him we have to discern his record. But I'm not here to debunk.
But when the boob tube began gracing our living rooms we got to see Mickey Mantle going for the downs,Johnny U hooking up with Ray Berry,and Wilt The Stilt knocking out Rocky Marciano
As long as it was on TV there were the replays we could go back to and watch it all over again.
I remember getting my feet wet with the sport in the 50's three nights a week on national TV.However, there were some great fighters that were put on the pay no mind list. Correct me,but I only saw fights starting with the lightweights on up. I'll give you a short list of some of my favorites by division.
Lightweight-Joe Brown(an underrated champion)
Welterweight-Carmen Basilio and Kid Gavilan
Middleweight-Sugar Ray Robinson
Light Heavyweight-Archie Moore
Heavyweight-Rocky Marciano
Too bad Hall of Famers like Willie Pep,Sandy Saddler,Pascual Perez,and Raton Macias got by me. They deserved to be on television. Maybe they appeared in the very early days on TV in the New York area,but on the national level you had to read the papers to get an inkling.. But the great part about the 50's was most of the best fights with these immortals we could watch for FREE!
Today,it's Pay For View to watch the likes of Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. and Anthony Joshua.Well,at least they have it on film.We can see it the next day on YouTube.Leaves a lot of room for debunking.
Harry Greb
Before the advent of television there wasn't a whole lot of celluloid out there where we could sit back and watch and analyze our favorite athletes. They played 154 baseball games back in the day but how many swings of the bat are there in the film archives of Babe Ruth doing his homerun hit? Maybe a few innings worth? Boxing doesn't rate much better but at least an entire fight ,when filmed, there's evidence of. Often the film is grainy and the speed is erratic like a Keystone Kops chase.. The "mythical fight" category on BoxRec is meekly assisted by the scant footage of legends like Johnson,Ketchel,Leonard,and Gans. Some of the posters wade along in conjecture..No Harry Greb to be seen on film.I'm sure they just didn't make up his nickname "The Human Windmill,"but we'd sure love to see evidence of those blows. The great Jack Britton fought in the ring close to 200 times,but they never brought the moving picture camera inside the arena.
However,even some of the immortals that we can catch on YouTube leave us scratching our heads. Stanley Ketchel's encounters with Billy Papke(the last time they fought) and Stan's White hope title shot against Johnson make me wonder what they see in the guy. The Papke affair is a model of a holding and clinching fest. These two got so close to each other I'm surprised afterwards they didn't run off to Reno and get married. We're familiar with Papke losing his fight and his front teeth to Lil' Arthur in Colma. Watching both fights I could count on Captain Hook's bad hand how many times "The Michigan Assassin" threw his jab. I don't think he had one. He kept his ands down by his side,his chin sticking out like "I dare you to hit me",and lunged like a gorilla when he threw his punches. Johnson even remarked after removing Stan's choppers from his glove that he was surprised by Ketchel's lack of defense.
The thread about why Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the best P4P of course was going to be countered by debunkers. One poster believes Greb was a better P4P. But without any film of him we have to discern his record. But I'm not here to debunk.
But when the boob tube began gracing our living rooms we got to see Mickey Mantle going for the downs,Johnny U hooking up with Ray Berry,and Wilt The Stilt knocking out Rocky Marciano
As long as it was on TV there were the replays we could go back to and watch it all over again.I remember getting my feet wet with the sport in the 50's three nights a week on national TV.However, there were some great fighters that were put on the pay no mind list. Correct me,but I only saw fights starting with the lightweights on up. I'll give you a short list of some of my favorites by division.
Lightweight-Joe Brown(an underrated champion)
Welterweight-Carmen Basilio and Kid Gavilan
Middleweight-Sugar Ray Robinson
Light Heavyweight-Archie Moore
Heavyweight-Rocky Marciano
Too bad Hall of Famers like Willie Pep,Sandy Saddler,Pascual Perez,and Raton Macias got by me. They deserved to be on television. Maybe they appeared in the very early days on TV in the New York area,but on the national level you had to read the papers to get an inkling.. But the great part about the 50's was most of the best fights with these immortals we could watch for FREE!
Today,it's Pay For View to watch the likes of Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. and Anthony Joshua.Well,at least they have it on film.We can see it the next day on YouTube.Leaves a lot of room for debunking.
Harry Greb
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Action Missing
Two fighters I forgot to mention yesterday regarding that they were not put on prime TV nationally:Hogan "Kid" Bassey and Davey Moore. I saw Davey Moore fight Kid Irapuato in the Tijuana bullring when he was building his winning record against a plethora of good Mexican featherweights. Irapuato,Moore took to task twice. The fight I saw in Tijuana(the other one was in Mexicali) was a one sided affair with Moore in control from start to finish winning a hands down decision. After the verdict was announced it was duck and cover time because the aficianados didn't want Davey to leave the arena that unscathed.The usual weapons:beer cups,chairs,firecrackers,small people were the "incoming" that Davey and his corner had to look out for,including everyone that could afford a ringside seat.or else The Davey Moore Show might have ended up in the general hospital. Moore and his entourage leaped from the ring(Moore didn't wait around to even take off his gloves)and with his people throwing a quick robe over his head they all somehow scampered to get outside through the melee and hail a cab to take them the border. I can say that the added sideshow was well worth the price of admission.
Nigerian Hogan "Kid" Bassey ,after winning the top featherweight honors, made his way to the Southland where he was to defend his title against the very popular and explosive Mexican 125 pounder Ricardo "Pajarito" Moreno. As a pro Little Bird won 60 times with 59 KO's on his record. Top that! But Moreno was one of those "bombers" who either took the other guy out or in the end it was Moreno who they" took out" on the stretcher. In his 12 losses Moreno failed to go the distance 8 times. They put the two together in Wrigley Field(the Wrigley Field in LA, the home field of the Chicago Cubs minor league team the Hollywood Stars).I remember reading the LA papers at the time.The build up was pretty strong. Inside the hearts of the LA fans they were anxious to see Moreno land one of his big left hooks to the body,a trademark of most Mexican fighters,and put Bassey back on the first plane to Nigeria.But Bassey was a slicker boxer than Moreno.Bassey's resume was against a higher competition than what Moreno had dealt with in the Mexican interior. I had to look at the fight again on YouTube before I began this script. Moreno was throwing his big hook wanting to Bassey to get to the airport to catch an early flight. Little Bird did land one of his bombs on target buckling the African's knees,but Bassey recovered quickly,saw his openings,uncorked some nice combinations,and had Moreno in trouble before you could say "Adios amigo.". In the 3rd, a volley of Bassey's swings sent Moreno to the canvas and he was counted out. He was never a vital factor again for the featherweight crown. Later in the year(1958), Davey Moore clipped Little Bird's wings knocking him down twice in round 1 with George Latka halting the massacre with two seconds left on the clock before the bell sounded.
In February of 1959 Bassey and Moore settled the matter of who was going to be champ at the Olympic Auditorium.They thrilled fans with a slugfest of action before Moore finally wore Bassey down making his corner hold him back at the start of the 14th frame. A rematch was in order but the result was similar Too much Davey for "The Kid" to fend off.The bell clanged for round 11 but Bassey didn't answer.
I remember seeing these fights on Mexican television,but for the life of me they've disappeared. I know that there are a lot of fights locked up in the Mexican archives because the government considers them national treasures and hoards them for themselves,but these two boys were not Mestizos. I also was made aware that KTLA had their storeroom robbed of some big time fights that were filmed. They are still on the FBI's "Missing Fighter's List." If anyone reading this knows or has any information regarding the whereabouts of these two epic battles PM me on the forum PLEASE. I can't offer you a reward but I'll let you rub my bald head.
Hogan "Kid" Bassey
Two fighters I forgot to mention yesterday regarding that they were not put on prime TV nationally:Hogan "Kid" Bassey and Davey Moore. I saw Davey Moore fight Kid Irapuato in the Tijuana bullring when he was building his winning record against a plethora of good Mexican featherweights. Irapuato,Moore took to task twice. The fight I saw in Tijuana(the other one was in Mexicali) was a one sided affair with Moore in control from start to finish winning a hands down decision. After the verdict was announced it was duck and cover time because the aficianados didn't want Davey to leave the arena that unscathed.The usual weapons:beer cups,chairs,firecrackers,small people were the "incoming" that Davey and his corner had to look out for,including everyone that could afford a ringside seat.or else The Davey Moore Show might have ended up in the general hospital. Moore and his entourage leaped from the ring(Moore didn't wait around to even take off his gloves)and with his people throwing a quick robe over his head they all somehow scampered to get outside through the melee and hail a cab to take them the border. I can say that the added sideshow was well worth the price of admission.
Nigerian Hogan "Kid" Bassey ,after winning the top featherweight honors, made his way to the Southland where he was to defend his title against the very popular and explosive Mexican 125 pounder Ricardo "Pajarito" Moreno. As a pro Little Bird won 60 times with 59 KO's on his record. Top that! But Moreno was one of those "bombers" who either took the other guy out or in the end it was Moreno who they" took out" on the stretcher. In his 12 losses Moreno failed to go the distance 8 times. They put the two together in Wrigley Field(the Wrigley Field in LA, the home field of the Chicago Cubs minor league team the Hollywood Stars).I remember reading the LA papers at the time.The build up was pretty strong. Inside the hearts of the LA fans they were anxious to see Moreno land one of his big left hooks to the body,a trademark of most Mexican fighters,and put Bassey back on the first plane to Nigeria.But Bassey was a slicker boxer than Moreno.Bassey's resume was against a higher competition than what Moreno had dealt with in the Mexican interior. I had to look at the fight again on YouTube before I began this script. Moreno was throwing his big hook wanting to Bassey to get to the airport to catch an early flight. Little Bird did land one of his bombs on target buckling the African's knees,but Bassey recovered quickly,saw his openings,uncorked some nice combinations,and had Moreno in trouble before you could say "Adios amigo.". In the 3rd, a volley of Bassey's swings sent Moreno to the canvas and he was counted out. He was never a vital factor again for the featherweight crown. Later in the year(1958), Davey Moore clipped Little Bird's wings knocking him down twice in round 1 with George Latka halting the massacre with two seconds left on the clock before the bell sounded.
In February of 1959 Bassey and Moore settled the matter of who was going to be champ at the Olympic Auditorium.They thrilled fans with a slugfest of action before Moore finally wore Bassey down making his corner hold him back at the start of the 14th frame. A rematch was in order but the result was similar Too much Davey for "The Kid" to fend off.The bell clanged for round 11 but Bassey didn't answer.
I remember seeing these fights on Mexican television,but for the life of me they've disappeared. I know that there are a lot of fights locked up in the Mexican archives because the government considers them national treasures and hoards them for themselves,but these two boys were not Mestizos. I also was made aware that KTLA had their storeroom robbed of some big time fights that were filmed. They are still on the FBI's "Missing Fighter's List." If anyone reading this knows or has any information regarding the whereabouts of these two epic battles PM me on the forum PLEASE. I can't offer you a reward but I'll let you rub my bald head.
Hogan "Kid" Bassey
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Jimmy Jacobs was very critical of pre 1920's fighters. In the late 50's he exhibited some films to the press and the writers were shocked at how primitive that era's fighters were. I favor the 1940's and 50's as boxing's 2 greatest decades , excluding heavyweights.
I know the argument about television killing the clubs, but without t.v. just how many fights would the average fan get to see ? I remember Hemingway saying how much he loved boxing, but he only went to maybe 6 cards per year. Last weekend, I saw 17 bouts, t.v. and the net combined.
I know the argument about television killing the clubs, but without t.v. just how many fights would the average fan get to see ? I remember Hemingway saying how much he loved boxing, but he only went to maybe 6 cards per year. Last weekend, I saw 17 bouts, t.v. and the net combined.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Goose,I'm with you and Jimmy Jacobs with your assessments. When I think about it,when they say this guy was a legend the first thing that comes to my mind is "Where you around then?Did you see him fight?"These opinions have been handed down word to mouth over the years that today the people who say "So and So is a legend" are mostly parroting what someone, who was quite a bit older, has said or what was written at that time.goose 5 wrote: ↑30 Dec 2019, 15:00 Jimmy Jacobs was very critical of pre 1920's fighters. In the late 50's he exhibited some films to the press and the writers were shocked at how primitive that era's fighters were. I favor the 1940's and 50's as boxing's 2 greatest decades , excluding heavyweights.
I know the argument about television killing the clubs, but without t.v. just how many fights would the average fan get to see ? I remember Hemingway saying how much he loved boxing, but he only went to maybe 6 cards per year. Last weekend, I saw 17 bouts, t.v. and the net combined.
The weekly cards at the Olympic Auditorium just sort of died on their own.Aileen Eaton's son Mike tried to keep things going but people's tastes changed and he had to book more wrestling and concerts.
If you like Hemingway,read his short story "50 Grand".It's a parallel of Jack Britton. Doesn't get any better.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Second Time Around
The first time I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight "live" was the Ralph "Tiger" Jones fight in Chicago. My father ,my Uncle Joe,and I were chaired in the livingroom in front of the TV to watch Robinson fight for the second time after a 2 1/2 year layoff after failing to wrest the light heavyweight crown from the head of Joey Maxim. Previous to the Jones fight Robinson had stopped Joe Rindone in 6 rounds in Detroit's Olympia Stadium. The fight world was waiting to see if Robinson could catch lightning in a bottle. My father and my uncle weren't the greatest fans of Sugar Ray Robinson. Robby had made a living beating Italian fighters(along with all the other races of pugilists) so it was more of a curiosity piece to see if Sugar Ray hadn't turned sour over the time off. Jones looked like a stepping stone.He was on a five fight losing streak and warranted nothing in terms of being a title challenger for the middleweight title.But Jones was a big man. His upper torso had it on Ray Robinson's. it was going to be at 160 that Robinson would have to blaze a trail from here on out.
We don't have any "complete" film footage of Robinson as a welterweight. We go back and forth arguing if he is REALLY the best P4P ever but we can't assess any of his a hundred or so fights as a welterweight by seeing the film. Trying to describe a fight with the printed word is similar to trying to describe a song with words.You have to hear it for yourself.. It's best to see a fight that's been filmed, and then determine its worth. Robinson's fights with Zivic,Armstrong,the two Gavilans,and all the LaMotta wars( prior to The Saint Valentine's Day Massacre )are there to be gleaned from old newspapers.
When George Gainsford decided to move Robinson up in weight to prep for the middleweight championship Robby had his hands full against the top quality guys in the division. When Robinson was going to war with Jake LaMotta ,before their last fight in Chicago, he would always give away 10 to 12 pounds, It was Jake who tagged the first on Sugar but Jake had a decided advantage on the scales.Jake looked like a "Raging Bull" with his big upper body and bulrush attack.Before Robinson lost for only the second time,the title loss to Randy Turpin,Robinson remarked that Randy had the upper body of a heavyweight. After regaining the belt Gainsford cajoled Robinson to try Joey Maxim on for size for a Henry Armstrong 3 title conquest. But Joey wasn't a "bull" in stature. His upper body was svelte and he had the punch that couldn't beak an egg. Joey was a boxer but that night in Yankee Stadium he was being out boxed by a better one.However, Robinsons' corner didn't keep their charge hydrated and the next morning it was said that the "heat" caused Robinson to lose. Maxim didn't take to that evaluation without a knee jerk "I had something to do with that too."
So when we analyze Robinson our best proof is in the film of his fights,but as a middleweight. Gene Fullmer was a legit middleweight with girth through the chest and he gave Robinson some good thrashings.The one win Robinson had on him in Chi Town Gene looked like a lead pipe cinch to thrash him again,but then there came the "perfect" left hook. Basilio stepped up to fight Robinson to try to double up on championship crowns but Carmen was more like Robinson's size:a real welterweight moving up to middleweight. it was the bully Gene Fullmer who later on also pushed around Carmen.
In 1965 I told you that I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight Memo Ayon in the Tijuana bullring. Robby was living mostly on his name by then.Ten fights later he'd lose to a pitter patter punching Joey Archer who had the indecency to knock Sugar Ray Robinson down.That was Robinson's swan song.(It's hard to believe Robinson fought 15 times in his last year)
So now I'll take you back to the family living room in Chicago.The fight's over. Robinson showed nothing.Jones ran right through him.The announcers Russ Hodges and Jack Drees are making all kinds of excuses.
"Well Guisep,"said my Uncle Joe to my father."It looks like Robinson is washed up."
"He'll never come back and look like he did before,"smirked my father.
"He'll probably announce his retirement."
"That would be the smartest thing he could do."
Well,Robinson stepped into the ring another 55 times,losing 15 of them.. His brilliance was way behind him.What we saw during that comeback was a fighter with guts. Some of his performances were acts in futility.He tried to look like the Sugar Ray Robinson of old,but he just looked old.Those fights were hard to look at.We were glad when he called it a career.But that said ,he won more titles against Hall Of Fame opposition.To think if we had all his big fights to see on YouTube when he was a welterweight?Give that greatest P4P recognition more credibility.
Sugar Ray Robinson against Ralph "Tiger" Jones
BTW:the timekeeper,Mike Murphy,was my godfather
The first time I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight "live" was the Ralph "Tiger" Jones fight in Chicago. My father ,my Uncle Joe,and I were chaired in the livingroom in front of the TV to watch Robinson fight for the second time after a 2 1/2 year layoff after failing to wrest the light heavyweight crown from the head of Joey Maxim. Previous to the Jones fight Robinson had stopped Joe Rindone in 6 rounds in Detroit's Olympia Stadium. The fight world was waiting to see if Robinson could catch lightning in a bottle. My father and my uncle weren't the greatest fans of Sugar Ray Robinson. Robby had made a living beating Italian fighters(along with all the other races of pugilists) so it was more of a curiosity piece to see if Sugar Ray hadn't turned sour over the time off. Jones looked like a stepping stone.He was on a five fight losing streak and warranted nothing in terms of being a title challenger for the middleweight title.But Jones was a big man. His upper torso had it on Ray Robinson's. it was going to be at 160 that Robinson would have to blaze a trail from here on out.
We don't have any "complete" film footage of Robinson as a welterweight. We go back and forth arguing if he is REALLY the best P4P ever but we can't assess any of his a hundred or so fights as a welterweight by seeing the film. Trying to describe a fight with the printed word is similar to trying to describe a song with words.You have to hear it for yourself.. It's best to see a fight that's been filmed, and then determine its worth. Robinson's fights with Zivic,Armstrong,the two Gavilans,and all the LaMotta wars( prior to The Saint Valentine's Day Massacre )are there to be gleaned from old newspapers.
When George Gainsford decided to move Robinson up in weight to prep for the middleweight championship Robby had his hands full against the top quality guys in the division. When Robinson was going to war with Jake LaMotta ,before their last fight in Chicago, he would always give away 10 to 12 pounds, It was Jake who tagged the first on Sugar but Jake had a decided advantage on the scales.Jake looked like a "Raging Bull" with his big upper body and bulrush attack.Before Robinson lost for only the second time,the title loss to Randy Turpin,Robinson remarked that Randy had the upper body of a heavyweight. After regaining the belt Gainsford cajoled Robinson to try Joey Maxim on for size for a Henry Armstrong 3 title conquest. But Joey wasn't a "bull" in stature. His upper body was svelte and he had the punch that couldn't beak an egg. Joey was a boxer but that night in Yankee Stadium he was being out boxed by a better one.However, Robinsons' corner didn't keep their charge hydrated and the next morning it was said that the "heat" caused Robinson to lose. Maxim didn't take to that evaluation without a knee jerk "I had something to do with that too."
So when we analyze Robinson our best proof is in the film of his fights,but as a middleweight. Gene Fullmer was a legit middleweight with girth through the chest and he gave Robinson some good thrashings.The one win Robinson had on him in Chi Town Gene looked like a lead pipe cinch to thrash him again,but then there came the "perfect" left hook. Basilio stepped up to fight Robinson to try to double up on championship crowns but Carmen was more like Robinson's size:a real welterweight moving up to middleweight. it was the bully Gene Fullmer who later on also pushed around Carmen.
In 1965 I told you that I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight Memo Ayon in the Tijuana bullring. Robby was living mostly on his name by then.Ten fights later he'd lose to a pitter patter punching Joey Archer who had the indecency to knock Sugar Ray Robinson down.That was Robinson's swan song.(It's hard to believe Robinson fought 15 times in his last year)
So now I'll take you back to the family living room in Chicago.The fight's over. Robinson showed nothing.Jones ran right through him.The announcers Russ Hodges and Jack Drees are making all kinds of excuses.
"Well Guisep,"said my Uncle Joe to my father."It looks like Robinson is washed up."
"He'll never come back and look like he did before,"smirked my father.
"He'll probably announce his retirement."
"That would be the smartest thing he could do."
Well,Robinson stepped into the ring another 55 times,losing 15 of them.. His brilliance was way behind him.What we saw during that comeback was a fighter with guts. Some of his performances were acts in futility.He tried to look like the Sugar Ray Robinson of old,but he just looked old.Those fights were hard to look at.We were glad when he called it a career.But that said ,he won more titles against Hall Of Fame opposition.To think if we had all his big fights to see on YouTube when he was a welterweight?Give that greatest P4P recognition more credibility.
Sugar Ray Robinson against Ralph "Tiger" Jones
BTW:the timekeeper,Mike Murphy,was my godfather
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Raging Bull***t
Last night ,the last night of the old year,i decided I'd get under the covers and watch a movie before waking up to 2020.There wasn't anything that moved me to switch on to Turner Classic Movies so I searched through my array of tapes and DVDs and opted for a movie I've watched countless times-Raging Bull. I got through to the part where Jake LaMotta brings Vicky up to his dad's apartment because he wants to pop her cherry in the worst way and she becomes charmed by his primitive advances,and I assume there was blood on the sheets soon after. The next thing we know they're getting married.However,lately this isn't the first time I've turned off Raging Bull before its conclusion. It's not that I'm bored with the movie. Scorsese put together a masterpiece. He should have received his first Academy Award for Best Director. Raging Bull is about as "perfect" a movie you can get even though there is the usual artistic license with the story about Jake LaMotta. Scorsese read the book Raging Bull,supposedly penned by the Raging Bull himself,however Jake getting ample assistance from co authors Joseph Carter and LaMotta's boyhood pal Peter Savage.Scorsese identified with that greaseball life in New York growing up in Queens so it was like second nature for him to gather a bunch of Italian actors and put his skills together to make one of the best movies ever. The film should have also received Best Picture.
The reason I've been defaulting on paying my dues to watching the end of the movie has to do with its leading star. If you've been reading some of my recent posts ,and I happen to type the name of this actor's name, you'll notice that I've given him a moniker.From now on Robert DeNiro,for me,will be Robert DaZero.That's how he's been referenced to whenever he's in one of my posts.I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to be disrespectful.
Let me say first that Robert DaZero got and deserved the Academy Award for Best Actor in Raging Bull. He was always one of my favorites.However, I think his range is limited. If he's playing a non Italian part he still looks,walks,and talks like a greaseball. In Scorsese's Goodfellas he's supposed to be playing the role of the Irish gangster Jimmy Conway(Jimmy Burke),but he comes off reeking with garlic.Another of Scorsese's movies,Casino, DaZero is suppose to be the Jewish gambler "Ace" Rothstein(Frank Rosenthal) but again DaZero is more "goomba" than "chaver." As usual he does a good acting job,but he's not an "Ace" Rothstein."Lucky" Luciano maybe,but no Shylock. The latest DaZero role is another Scorsese venture,The Irishman. DaZero has the role of the guy who is supposed to have whacked Jimmy Hoffa,Frank Sheeran. Sheeran was a tall fair haired Irish bruiser and hit man for the Mob. DaZero may have 3/4ths Irish blood in him but it don't show.DaZero is a short swarthy dago who couldn't sell a case of Bushmills to an Irish wake on St. Paddy's Day.
Ok.Now you probably want to why I've soured on the guy who used to be my favorite actor. Like a lot of Hollywood ilk the past 3 years he gets on his soap box on national TV speaking to a bunch of fellow actors and sounds off against Trump.But he doesn't get out of the role of being Al Capone(remember The Untouchables?) or Jake LaMotta. He boasts and swaggers about how he wants to kick Trump's ass and calls him a piece of s--t,Of course he's speaking to the choir. After getting it off his chest he takes a step back,looks at his acolytes,and puts on his Mussolini face.,He soaks up the screams and yells like sopping his Italian bread in his mother's spaghetti gravy.
Hey DaZero. If you don't remind me of Sinatra. He used to go into a joint with a snootful in him and pick then go pick a fight with the biggest guy at the bar. But Ol' Blue Eyes knew his no neck bodyguards would intercede before Frankie Boy would be carried out to the street missing his front teeth. I could just see DaZero striding up to Trump with clenched fist.The Secret Service would have him on the ground in a choke hold before you could say "That's Amore." Then they'd take him downtown and throw him in a holding tank with a bunch of dudes who you can't see the color of their skin because of all their tattoos. They won't be asking DaZero for any autographs,but I'll assure you they'll confiscate his lanyard with the bar of soap on the end.Besides,I don't think he'd kick Trump's ass(mythical fight thread?) one on one. Bobby DaZero is an actor. He plays these tough guy parts,but he's only acting.Drop the role DaZero. You're only fooling yourself.Besides,you'll never even get considered for any Academy Award on February 9th.
The Raging Bull******r
Last night ,the last night of the old year,i decided I'd get under the covers and watch a movie before waking up to 2020.There wasn't anything that moved me to switch on to Turner Classic Movies so I searched through my array of tapes and DVDs and opted for a movie I've watched countless times-Raging Bull. I got through to the part where Jake LaMotta brings Vicky up to his dad's apartment because he wants to pop her cherry in the worst way and she becomes charmed by his primitive advances,and I assume there was blood on the sheets soon after. The next thing we know they're getting married.However,lately this isn't the first time I've turned off Raging Bull before its conclusion. It's not that I'm bored with the movie. Scorsese put together a masterpiece. He should have received his first Academy Award for Best Director. Raging Bull is about as "perfect" a movie you can get even though there is the usual artistic license with the story about Jake LaMotta. Scorsese read the book Raging Bull,supposedly penned by the Raging Bull himself,however Jake getting ample assistance from co authors Joseph Carter and LaMotta's boyhood pal Peter Savage.Scorsese identified with that greaseball life in New York growing up in Queens so it was like second nature for him to gather a bunch of Italian actors and put his skills together to make one of the best movies ever. The film should have also received Best Picture.
The reason I've been defaulting on paying my dues to watching the end of the movie has to do with its leading star. If you've been reading some of my recent posts ,and I happen to type the name of this actor's name, you'll notice that I've given him a moniker.From now on Robert DeNiro,for me,will be Robert DaZero.That's how he's been referenced to whenever he's in one of my posts.I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to be disrespectful.
Let me say first that Robert DaZero got and deserved the Academy Award for Best Actor in Raging Bull. He was always one of my favorites.However, I think his range is limited. If he's playing a non Italian part he still looks,walks,and talks like a greaseball. In Scorsese's Goodfellas he's supposed to be playing the role of the Irish gangster Jimmy Conway(Jimmy Burke),but he comes off reeking with garlic.Another of Scorsese's movies,Casino, DaZero is suppose to be the Jewish gambler "Ace" Rothstein(Frank Rosenthal) but again DaZero is more "goomba" than "chaver." As usual he does a good acting job,but he's not an "Ace" Rothstein."Lucky" Luciano maybe,but no Shylock. The latest DaZero role is another Scorsese venture,The Irishman. DaZero has the role of the guy who is supposed to have whacked Jimmy Hoffa,Frank Sheeran. Sheeran was a tall fair haired Irish bruiser and hit man for the Mob. DaZero may have 3/4ths Irish blood in him but it don't show.DaZero is a short swarthy dago who couldn't sell a case of Bushmills to an Irish wake on St. Paddy's Day.
Ok.Now you probably want to why I've soured on the guy who used to be my favorite actor. Like a lot of Hollywood ilk the past 3 years he gets on his soap box on national TV speaking to a bunch of fellow actors and sounds off against Trump.But he doesn't get out of the role of being Al Capone(remember The Untouchables?) or Jake LaMotta. He boasts and swaggers about how he wants to kick Trump's ass and calls him a piece of s--t,Of course he's speaking to the choir. After getting it off his chest he takes a step back,looks at his acolytes,and puts on his Mussolini face.,He soaks up the screams and yells like sopping his Italian bread in his mother's spaghetti gravy.
Hey DaZero. If you don't remind me of Sinatra. He used to go into a joint with a snootful in him and pick then go pick a fight with the biggest guy at the bar. But Ol' Blue Eyes knew his no neck bodyguards would intercede before Frankie Boy would be carried out to the street missing his front teeth. I could just see DaZero striding up to Trump with clenched fist.The Secret Service would have him on the ground in a choke hold before you could say "That's Amore." Then they'd take him downtown and throw him in a holding tank with a bunch of dudes who you can't see the color of their skin because of all their tattoos. They won't be asking DaZero for any autographs,but I'll assure you they'll confiscate his lanyard with the bar of soap on the end.Besides,I don't think he'd kick Trump's ass(mythical fight thread?) one on one. Bobby DaZero is an actor. He plays these tough guy parts,but he's only acting.Drop the role DaZero. You're only fooling yourself.Besides,you'll never even get considered for any Academy Award on February 9th.
The Raging Bull******r
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Fat Of The Land
I always admired how good of shape boxers looked when they climbed into the ring. There wasn't an ounce of fat on any of those guys. Then came along Buster Mathis. He was going to the 64 Olympics by beating Joe Frazier in order to qualify for the top spot,but then sustained an injury putting Joe in line to go to Tokyo instead. Joe won te Gold.Both boys turned pro the following year. Both Frazier and Mathis got connected with smart "boxing people." Cus D'Amato trained Buster along with the aide of Joe Louis for a spell. Clover Inc. out of Philly steered the course for Frazier with Yank Durham acting as trainer,manager,and surrogate dad.
When Frazier and Mathis had there showdown in Madison Square Garden after Muhammad Ali was stripped of the title for evading Uncle Sam(only Ring Magazine under the direction of founder/owner Nat Fleischer still had Ali on top of the heavyweight heap with his crown still on his head.But Nat still referred to Ali as "Clay".He was the champ of Ring Magazine,but had to swallow being called "Clay".Like kissing your sister I guess)
Before the bell rang for round number 1 both heavyweights were undefeated. Like I mentioned before,Buster Mathis was the first fighter(of merit)I ever saw with a jelly belly. But instead of the leagues of blubber butts we've seen in the heavyweight division in the last 30 years,Buster was sort of an anomaly of the overweight heavyweight. He carried himself well. He was light on his feet, could box like a lighter man,and possessed skills.. He had 40 pounds on Frazier,had beaten him in the Olympic Trials,and I thought it would be ditto when it came down to all the marbles in New York.
I remember Mathis getting the jump on Joe. Joe was smokin' as usual. He had no surprises in his attack.,But Buster used his jab stayed away with some nifty footwork,and tied Joe up to offset his rushes.As the fight moved on Frazier took heed of what Yank Durham was telling him:throw the hook to the body,forget the head. Well like Sam Langford had advocated- kill the body and the head will fall -was smart strategy. Mathis's 44 inch waistline was a target Joe couldn't miss. In the 11th round a tiring Buster did a delayed action collapse to the canvas from one of Joe's digging lefts.
Frazier went on to fight Ali after the courts (and seeing all the money there was to be made) gave Muhammad the legal right to continue fighting. The Fight Of The Century didn't live up to the hype. We saw an old(er) Ali with his new strategy that he'd employ from then on-The Rope A Dope.
I talked about without seeing Sugar Ray Robinson's complete fights at welterweight on film,it somewhat blinds our perspective when calling him the best P4P. Imagine if the only people around today were the ones that were inside the arenas when Ali fought Liston,Williams,Patterson,Cooper,and so on that could describe to us what a great fighter was The Greatest?
Buster Mathis remained in the hunt after losing to Joe Frazier. A win over George Chuvalo made matchmakers and promoters take notice. But then Jerry Quarry,who somehow performed at his best when he fought big black heavyweights,quashed Buster's aspirations for a world title shot winning a one sided decision back in New York.Next Buster was shutout by a toying Ali in a very dull fight.Buster's finale was a 2nd round KO by a rising undefeated Ron Lyle in Denver Colorado.
Mathis probably would have achieved better if he hadn't have had to carry so much "extra" weight. I looked at his record. There were fights when he tipped the bar on the scale close to the 300 mark. I remember one time I was carrying around 300 pounds. I got on one of those scales that gave you your fortune.After getting off the platform the machine spit out my fortune.It read,"Please,only one person at a time."
Buster Mathis
I always admired how good of shape boxers looked when they climbed into the ring. There wasn't an ounce of fat on any of those guys. Then came along Buster Mathis. He was going to the 64 Olympics by beating Joe Frazier in order to qualify for the top spot,but then sustained an injury putting Joe in line to go to Tokyo instead. Joe won te Gold.Both boys turned pro the following year. Both Frazier and Mathis got connected with smart "boxing people." Cus D'Amato trained Buster along with the aide of Joe Louis for a spell. Clover Inc. out of Philly steered the course for Frazier with Yank Durham acting as trainer,manager,and surrogate dad.
When Frazier and Mathis had there showdown in Madison Square Garden after Muhammad Ali was stripped of the title for evading Uncle Sam(only Ring Magazine under the direction of founder/owner Nat Fleischer still had Ali on top of the heavyweight heap with his crown still on his head.But Nat still referred to Ali as "Clay".He was the champ of Ring Magazine,but had to swallow being called "Clay".Like kissing your sister I guess)
Before the bell rang for round number 1 both heavyweights were undefeated. Like I mentioned before,Buster Mathis was the first fighter(of merit)I ever saw with a jelly belly. But instead of the leagues of blubber butts we've seen in the heavyweight division in the last 30 years,Buster was sort of an anomaly of the overweight heavyweight. He carried himself well. He was light on his feet, could box like a lighter man,and possessed skills.. He had 40 pounds on Frazier,had beaten him in the Olympic Trials,and I thought it would be ditto when it came down to all the marbles in New York.
I remember Mathis getting the jump on Joe. Joe was smokin' as usual. He had no surprises in his attack.,But Buster used his jab stayed away with some nifty footwork,and tied Joe up to offset his rushes.As the fight moved on Frazier took heed of what Yank Durham was telling him:throw the hook to the body,forget the head. Well like Sam Langford had advocated- kill the body and the head will fall -was smart strategy. Mathis's 44 inch waistline was a target Joe couldn't miss. In the 11th round a tiring Buster did a delayed action collapse to the canvas from one of Joe's digging lefts.
Frazier went on to fight Ali after the courts (and seeing all the money there was to be made) gave Muhammad the legal right to continue fighting. The Fight Of The Century didn't live up to the hype. We saw an old(er) Ali with his new strategy that he'd employ from then on-The Rope A Dope.
I talked about without seeing Sugar Ray Robinson's complete fights at welterweight on film,it somewhat blinds our perspective when calling him the best P4P. Imagine if the only people around today were the ones that were inside the arenas when Ali fought Liston,Williams,Patterson,Cooper,and so on that could describe to us what a great fighter was The Greatest?
Buster Mathis remained in the hunt after losing to Joe Frazier. A win over George Chuvalo made matchmakers and promoters take notice. But then Jerry Quarry,who somehow performed at his best when he fought big black heavyweights,quashed Buster's aspirations for a world title shot winning a one sided decision back in New York.Next Buster was shutout by a toying Ali in a very dull fight.Buster's finale was a 2nd round KO by a rising undefeated Ron Lyle in Denver Colorado.
Mathis probably would have achieved better if he hadn't have had to carry so much "extra" weight. I looked at his record. There were fights when he tipped the bar on the scale close to the 300 mark. I remember one time I was carrying around 300 pounds. I got on one of those scales that gave you your fortune.After getting off the platform the machine spit out my fortune.It read,"Please,only one person at a time."
Buster Mathis
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Dreamland
When I was working on my teaching credential in college more than 40 years ago one of my assignments was to predict something that will happen in the future. I began writing that the football college bowl games will be swallowed up by the corporate world. For instance a bowl game like the Sugar Bowl will be sponsored by a big corporation like Pepsi Cola and thus will be renamed the "Coca Cola Sugar Bowl." Back when I was a kid there were four major bowl games and that was essentially it.There was the Orange Bowl,the Cotton Bowl,the Sugar Bowl,and the Rose Bowl. The smaller wildcat bowls were mainly played between teams in local regions of the country. The games weren't televised.You had to read about them in the papers the next day to find out who won.
I also included in my essay that all the college and pro offensive linemen would weigh an average over 300 pounds per man. Tom Landry ,the Dallas Cowboys legendary coach and innovater,had a rule that he didn't want his offensive linemen weighing over 250 pounds.He wanted them to be nimble and quick so they could pull on sweeps effectively. In today's pro game you're lucky if you see a team even run a sweep. The defensive linemen on these teams are just too fast be beat on the outside.Tom Landry saw the game run by him.
I saw this coming.Football, today on all levels, is played much better than what went down in yesteryear.If a college team wins half its games they are eligible to play in a bowl game. This afternoon I watched a little of The Famous Idaho Potato Bowl game played on Albertson's Field in Boise,Idaho. I can't tell you what separates a "Famous Idaho Potato" from any other spud.And I guess the giant food chain "Albertson's" could afford to fork over enough dough to get the stadium named after itself. Now Albertson's will have to hike the price on a sack of potatoes the next time you go to their supermarket.
Boxing has run into a similar saturation with all the different titles that are spreading around like the plague.Fly by night commissions, bought and owned by Johnny Come Lately promoters, present title belts like old man Rockefeller handed out dimes to the waifs standing on the street corners. I like it when some of these fighters are announced in the ring before a fight as being a champion in 5 different weight divisions. I'd start naming the multitude of boxing associations and weight categories but you'd could probably make something up in your head and you'd be close or on the money. I went down to Tijuana awhile back and took in a card at one of those rough around the edges bars.The main event was a super featherweight title for the championship of Northern Baja California. I would say the promoters sold around a hundred tickets.There were ten fights on the undercard and there was no TV.After paying the overhead:the referees,the bartenders and waiters,the refreshments,and the promoter cutting out his hunk,I wondered if any pesos were left for the fighters.
But I guess it all comes out in the wash. Those college kids that played in the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl and their fans that went to the game including the moms and dads were happy as punch. The fighters that choked through the cigarette smoke at the local Tijuana bar trying earn a win so they could fight some day for the Super Featherweight Championship Of Northern Baja California went home still dreaming.They have to give themselves a nickname of course. They all have a nickname.Some of the sobriquets are funny for a fighter.There's a guy who calls himself "Muneco" which means "doll." Another pug who wants to be known as "Changito"(little monkey).Those names more or less are a fit. Their records show a lot more losses than wins. But on the other hand there are the "Tigres", "Toros',and "Assessinos". But they don't act like tigers or bulls or assassins when fighting in the ring.Most of them are also way south in the win column when compared to how many "w's" show on their records.
For those college boys,well, thery're going to college. Those players in those Potato Bowls won't get drafted by the pros. They'll use their degrees to become doctors and lawyers,or better yet get a seat on the New York Stack Exchange.. The fighters slugging away in those obscure bars on the fringes of Tijuana,well,they can always still dream.
When I was working on my teaching credential in college more than 40 years ago one of my assignments was to predict something that will happen in the future. I began writing that the football college bowl games will be swallowed up by the corporate world. For instance a bowl game like the Sugar Bowl will be sponsored by a big corporation like Pepsi Cola and thus will be renamed the "Coca Cola Sugar Bowl." Back when I was a kid there were four major bowl games and that was essentially it.There was the Orange Bowl,the Cotton Bowl,the Sugar Bowl,and the Rose Bowl. The smaller wildcat bowls were mainly played between teams in local regions of the country. The games weren't televised.You had to read about them in the papers the next day to find out who won.
I also included in my essay that all the college and pro offensive linemen would weigh an average over 300 pounds per man. Tom Landry ,the Dallas Cowboys legendary coach and innovater,had a rule that he didn't want his offensive linemen weighing over 250 pounds.He wanted them to be nimble and quick so they could pull on sweeps effectively. In today's pro game you're lucky if you see a team even run a sweep. The defensive linemen on these teams are just too fast be beat on the outside.Tom Landry saw the game run by him.
I saw this coming.Football, today on all levels, is played much better than what went down in yesteryear.If a college team wins half its games they are eligible to play in a bowl game. This afternoon I watched a little of The Famous Idaho Potato Bowl game played on Albertson's Field in Boise,Idaho. I can't tell you what separates a "Famous Idaho Potato" from any other spud.And I guess the giant food chain "Albertson's" could afford to fork over enough dough to get the stadium named after itself. Now Albertson's will have to hike the price on a sack of potatoes the next time you go to their supermarket.
Boxing has run into a similar saturation with all the different titles that are spreading around like the plague.Fly by night commissions, bought and owned by Johnny Come Lately promoters, present title belts like old man Rockefeller handed out dimes to the waifs standing on the street corners. I like it when some of these fighters are announced in the ring before a fight as being a champion in 5 different weight divisions. I'd start naming the multitude of boxing associations and weight categories but you'd could probably make something up in your head and you'd be close or on the money. I went down to Tijuana awhile back and took in a card at one of those rough around the edges bars.The main event was a super featherweight title for the championship of Northern Baja California. I would say the promoters sold around a hundred tickets.There were ten fights on the undercard and there was no TV.After paying the overhead:the referees,the bartenders and waiters,the refreshments,and the promoter cutting out his hunk,I wondered if any pesos were left for the fighters.
But I guess it all comes out in the wash. Those college kids that played in the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl and their fans that went to the game including the moms and dads were happy as punch. The fighters that choked through the cigarette smoke at the local Tijuana bar trying earn a win so they could fight some day for the Super Featherweight Championship Of Northern Baja California went home still dreaming.They have to give themselves a nickname of course. They all have a nickname.Some of the sobriquets are funny for a fighter.There's a guy who calls himself "Muneco" which means "doll." Another pug who wants to be known as "Changito"(little monkey).Those names more or less are a fit. Their records show a lot more losses than wins. But on the other hand there are the "Tigres", "Toros',and "Assessinos". But they don't act like tigers or bulls or assassins when fighting in the ring.Most of them are also way south in the win column when compared to how many "w's" show on their records.
For those college boys,well, thery're going to college. Those players in those Potato Bowls won't get drafted by the pros. They'll use their degrees to become doctors and lawyers,or better yet get a seat on the New York Stack Exchange.. The fighters slugging away in those obscure bars on the fringes of Tijuana,well,they can always still dream.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Off Topic
The summer I helped Archie Moore at his Any Boy Can Club in Southeast San Diego I never talked to him about his boxing career.Inside his club he was absorbed by getting his kids together:teaching them boxing skills,discipline,moral values. Archie kept himself pretty busy. His son Billy was there helping out keeping in step with his dad. I took direction from both of them. My part was mostly manual labor.Archie did the talking.Me and Billy mostly listened.
I guess I could have brought up the topic of fighting.,but I didn't have an urge. Archie Moore loved to talk.He could talk to you about anything even if he wasn't a guru on a particular subject. I've told you about the time I bumped into him at Huffman's Barbeque that was down the street from Lincoln High School. When he took notice of me he asked me to join him for lunch. I figured I could open with just about anything and he would take it from there. For starters I don't have a bent about bringing up boxing with fighters-especially fighters of Archie Moore's stature. What the hell would I ask him anyway? Who was your toughest opponent. Who hit you the hardest? What was it like fighting Marciano? Besides,Archie Moore had a lineup of "different" responses when it came to answering questions about what he did to earn a buck.
I knew Archie Moore loved music-all kinds especially his alter ego being a jazz musician. Well,I love music too-all types and I knew I could hang with Archie on the topic of jazz. If I'd have asked boxing questions it would have been me asking and him going into a discourse,and besides,I didn't know what "particular" answer he was going to pull out of his hat. When jazz was established as the lunch topic I knew I was "in".
Archie Moore was born the same year as my dad,1913(so said Archie's mother).Growing up he had an ear for the likes of the Kansas City cats like Benny Moten,Count Basie,Lester Young,and Jay McShann. When the musicians moved out of KC to The Apple try out new things musicians like Duke Ellington,Ben Webster,and Coleman Hawkins were on Archie's bucket list of records to buy. In the 40's it was young insurgents like Charlie Parker,Dizzy Gillespie,Bud Powell,and Thelonious Monk that rocked the genre. Archie thought these guy were a "gas." So did I copy.
"You know what sets jazz apart from the rest of music?"he asked me leaning over his plate of barbeque chicken.
"Improvisation," I answered confidently.(Even if he had disagreed I knew I was right, but he concurred)
"Those classical "cats" can play what's written on the page but they can't improvise,"he said.
We were equals then.
"But the problem with the "cats" today is they're playing a lot of crap,"exclaimed The Mongoose.
"I know what you mean."
"Why do you think it's gotten to that?"
Now HE'S asking ME.I felt honored,but It was something I'd given a lot of thought to.
"All these kids are trying to play like Charlie Parker and they can't keep up,"I responded.
"Parker and Gillespie paid their dues.They practiced day and night "woodshedding."They didn't care what other musicians thought."
"It was a new sound and a lot of people didn't get it."
"They were geniuses but geniuses practice everyday."
"I don't like it when the critics say the old timers were against them," I said.
"Maybe someone like Bing Crosby,"said Archie laughing.
"Even Louie Armstrong came over."
It went on like that for quite awhile. "Boxing" wasn't important.
When I finished lunch with Archie Moore I got to thinking about this "genius" tag they put on people. You could say Archie Moore was a genius,but like every genius he practiced everyday.
The new and the old coming together-Charlie Parker and Buddy Rich. It's apparent they "dig" each other.
The summer I helped Archie Moore at his Any Boy Can Club in Southeast San Diego I never talked to him about his boxing career.Inside his club he was absorbed by getting his kids together:teaching them boxing skills,discipline,moral values. Archie kept himself pretty busy. His son Billy was there helping out keeping in step with his dad. I took direction from both of them. My part was mostly manual labor.Archie did the talking.Me and Billy mostly listened.
I guess I could have brought up the topic of fighting.,but I didn't have an urge. Archie Moore loved to talk.He could talk to you about anything even if he wasn't a guru on a particular subject. I've told you about the time I bumped into him at Huffman's Barbeque that was down the street from Lincoln High School. When he took notice of me he asked me to join him for lunch. I figured I could open with just about anything and he would take it from there. For starters I don't have a bent about bringing up boxing with fighters-especially fighters of Archie Moore's stature. What the hell would I ask him anyway? Who was your toughest opponent. Who hit you the hardest? What was it like fighting Marciano? Besides,Archie Moore had a lineup of "different" responses when it came to answering questions about what he did to earn a buck.
I knew Archie Moore loved music-all kinds especially his alter ego being a jazz musician. Well,I love music too-all types and I knew I could hang with Archie on the topic of jazz. If I'd have asked boxing questions it would have been me asking and him going into a discourse,and besides,I didn't know what "particular" answer he was going to pull out of his hat. When jazz was established as the lunch topic I knew I was "in".
Archie Moore was born the same year as my dad,1913(so said Archie's mother).Growing up he had an ear for the likes of the Kansas City cats like Benny Moten,Count Basie,Lester Young,and Jay McShann. When the musicians moved out of KC to The Apple try out new things musicians like Duke Ellington,Ben Webster,and Coleman Hawkins were on Archie's bucket list of records to buy. In the 40's it was young insurgents like Charlie Parker,Dizzy Gillespie,Bud Powell,and Thelonious Monk that rocked the genre. Archie thought these guy were a "gas." So did I copy.
"You know what sets jazz apart from the rest of music?"he asked me leaning over his plate of barbeque chicken.
"Improvisation," I answered confidently.(Even if he had disagreed I knew I was right, but he concurred)
"Those classical "cats" can play what's written on the page but they can't improvise,"he said.
We were equals then.
"But the problem with the "cats" today is they're playing a lot of crap,"exclaimed The Mongoose.
"I know what you mean."
"Why do you think it's gotten to that?"
Now HE'S asking ME.I felt honored,but It was something I'd given a lot of thought to.
"All these kids are trying to play like Charlie Parker and they can't keep up,"I responded.
"Parker and Gillespie paid their dues.They practiced day and night "woodshedding."They didn't care what other musicians thought."
"It was a new sound and a lot of people didn't get it."
"They were geniuses but geniuses practice everyday."
"I don't like it when the critics say the old timers were against them," I said.
"Maybe someone like Bing Crosby,"said Archie laughing.
"Even Louie Armstrong came over."
It went on like that for quite awhile. "Boxing" wasn't important.
When I finished lunch with Archie Moore I got to thinking about this "genius" tag they put on people. You could say Archie Moore was a genius,but like every genius he practiced everyday.
The new and the old coming together-Charlie Parker and Buddy Rich. It's apparent they "dig" each other.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Girly Man
So now it's gotten to the stage where a male athlete can compete against the women by just declaring that he is a she. I don't know where to insert the quotation marks-around the he or the she so I won't guess. Is this part of the transgender agenda? I was reading that a man has to go through a year long "testosterone suppression" regimen and then he is qualified to be a she and compete against the girls. Track and Field is where we've seen the most results of these contests. But there's an ulterior motive behind a lot of this he/she switching. There are a slew of male athletes that can't cross the finish line in first place or can't put the shot put ahead of the others. Their mantles in their living rooms are bare of trophies and blue ribbons. So now they've come out of the lockerroom declaring that they are really girls so they can compete against the girls who are really girls.
I feel sorry for the girls that have trained their tushes off to reach the top and then find themselves at the starting line next to someone with a beard and testicles. But how did this practice come to fruit? Today,we have men who resemble Sasquatch who can enter the "woman's" bathroom to take a dump and leave the stall door open. I guess little sister will have to sympathize about what's going on inside Magilla Gorilla's head. And if little sister takes affront with this Neanderthal relieving himself in her presence sis is leaving herself open to a lawsuit,or at least her parent's are going to receive a summons.
I've gone on about these poor souls boxing in these sordid little bars in Tijuana and getting their brains bashed in on a bi weekly. But now that it's OK to be bisexual there's hope for these pugs. They can fight the girls. I bet being a heavyweight would really clean out the rest of the split tail heavyweights. Imagine some dude looking like Andy Ruiz squaring off against a girl heavyweight? You could post that on Pornhub and get a million views before the sun sets. But oops,I was talking about Mexican boxing. Maybe the pussy/penis matchup would fly in the land of milk and honey,but south of the border you'd have a better chance seeing the return of the Donkey Show.
Maybe these dudes that want to declare themselves having two "x" chromosomes just want to have a title belt or they're confused. I know I am by all this.
So now it's gotten to the stage where a male athlete can compete against the women by just declaring that he is a she. I don't know where to insert the quotation marks-around the he or the she so I won't guess. Is this part of the transgender agenda? I was reading that a man has to go through a year long "testosterone suppression" regimen and then he is qualified to be a she and compete against the girls. Track and Field is where we've seen the most results of these contests. But there's an ulterior motive behind a lot of this he/she switching. There are a slew of male athletes that can't cross the finish line in first place or can't put the shot put ahead of the others. Their mantles in their living rooms are bare of trophies and blue ribbons. So now they've come out of the lockerroom declaring that they are really girls so they can compete against the girls who are really girls.
I feel sorry for the girls that have trained their tushes off to reach the top and then find themselves at the starting line next to someone with a beard and testicles. But how did this practice come to fruit? Today,we have men who resemble Sasquatch who can enter the "woman's" bathroom to take a dump and leave the stall door open. I guess little sister will have to sympathize about what's going on inside Magilla Gorilla's head. And if little sister takes affront with this Neanderthal relieving himself in her presence sis is leaving herself open to a lawsuit,or at least her parent's are going to receive a summons.
I've gone on about these poor souls boxing in these sordid little bars in Tijuana and getting their brains bashed in on a bi weekly. But now that it's OK to be bisexual there's hope for these pugs. They can fight the girls. I bet being a heavyweight would really clean out the rest of the split tail heavyweights. Imagine some dude looking like Andy Ruiz squaring off against a girl heavyweight? You could post that on Pornhub and get a million views before the sun sets. But oops,I was talking about Mexican boxing. Maybe the pussy/penis matchup would fly in the land of milk and honey,but south of the border you'd have a better chance seeing the return of the Donkey Show.
Maybe these dudes that want to declare themselves having two "x" chromosomes just want to have a title belt or they're confused. I know I am by all this.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Greatest Record That Never Was
Carlos Ortiz traveled out to Los Angeles with Gaspar Ortega and his wife for the World Boxing Hall Of Fame ceremonies ten years ago. Carlos was dressed very snazzy(it's improper I know but I hate using adverbs.The "l y" on the end of an adjective sounds kind of wimpy. Carl Sandberg felt the same way.If you've got a beef take it up with him).Ortiz looked good;trim and alert,enjoying the fuss everyone was making over the fighters. Ortega on the other hand was more quiet and reserved.That day Gaspar's wife had to go to the hospital for a dialysis treatment.I think that was on his mind. He also told me about a stent the docs inserted in his neck to open up a clogged artery. He made me feel it.
At the dinner table Ortiz was talking about the bar he had in New York. I forgot where he told me where it was. I think somewhere in Manhattan. He gave me the impression that The Apple was still the hub for boxing and just about everything else in the world. He didn't give any examples,but I think because he earned a lot of his fame and fortune in New York I could understand. He also put on some good shows in his native Puerto Rico,but the status of winning big fights in Madison Square Garden beats what went down in the Caribbean.As far as sunny California was concerned he acted like The Golden State was a runner up to what they had to offer in New York:the tallest bulidings,the best restaurants,the tops in entertainment,not to mention the sports capital of the planet. New Yorkers are a lot like that. That's why there's a lot of people around that don't like them.I don't think it does Trump a lot of good being from New York. All the bravado and brusqueness, that New York way of talking(sometimes when I listen to a New Yorker I can't tell if he's a Jew or an Italian,or an Irishman).But Ortiz is Puerto Rican and still has the accent that gives him away.
Ortiz ain't afraid to talk about fighting, especially about what's out there today.
"Today's fighters don't compare to what we were like,"he said starting on his dinner salad."They don't know how to box.Their trainers don't know what's going on.Guys like Teddy Bentham,Whitey Bimstein,and Charley Goldman taught me how to fight."
Since he brought up boxing I jumped in.
"How about a fighter like Tyson?"
"You saw what happened when someone stood up to him.The myth was broken,"he said grinning.
"If you had to do it over again would there be anything you'd do different?"
"I wouldn't fight Dulio Loi in Italy."
"Why's that?"
"You'd need a gun to bring into the ring to kill him and then you'd probably lose on a split decision."
"Or get disqualified."
Carlos gave a laugh.
"That guy did 99% of his fighting in Italy.,"he remarked. "He built up his record by playing it safe fighting a lot of no names."
"You don't hear his name brought up much when it comes to naming great champions,"I said.
"It shouldn't be. He never fought in New York.He had a good ol' time playing it safe in Italy."
"I think Loi only lost three fights."
"And one of those times it was against me and that was the only time he came over to fight in the United States.. They talk about his clever defense.All he wanted to do is not get hit. He didn't want to mix it up."
It's funny.I've traveled to Italy four times. Every time I brought up the subject of boxing regarding Italian fighters,the natives would talk about Marciano,LaMotta,and Willie Pep. They would never mention any of their own-even Benvenuti. Goes to show you it's not your record but what's inside of it that matters.
A natty looking Carlos Ortiz at the WBHOF banquet. Notice the smart coat and tie combo.
Carlos Ortiz traveled out to Los Angeles with Gaspar Ortega and his wife for the World Boxing Hall Of Fame ceremonies ten years ago. Carlos was dressed very snazzy(it's improper I know but I hate using adverbs.The "l y" on the end of an adjective sounds kind of wimpy. Carl Sandberg felt the same way.If you've got a beef take it up with him).Ortiz looked good;trim and alert,enjoying the fuss everyone was making over the fighters. Ortega on the other hand was more quiet and reserved.That day Gaspar's wife had to go to the hospital for a dialysis treatment.I think that was on his mind. He also told me about a stent the docs inserted in his neck to open up a clogged artery. He made me feel it.
At the dinner table Ortiz was talking about the bar he had in New York. I forgot where he told me where it was. I think somewhere in Manhattan. He gave me the impression that The Apple was still the hub for boxing and just about everything else in the world. He didn't give any examples,but I think because he earned a lot of his fame and fortune in New York I could understand. He also put on some good shows in his native Puerto Rico,but the status of winning big fights in Madison Square Garden beats what went down in the Caribbean.As far as sunny California was concerned he acted like The Golden State was a runner up to what they had to offer in New York:the tallest bulidings,the best restaurants,the tops in entertainment,not to mention the sports capital of the planet. New Yorkers are a lot like that. That's why there's a lot of people around that don't like them.I don't think it does Trump a lot of good being from New York. All the bravado and brusqueness, that New York way of talking(sometimes when I listen to a New Yorker I can't tell if he's a Jew or an Italian,or an Irishman).But Ortiz is Puerto Rican and still has the accent that gives him away.
Ortiz ain't afraid to talk about fighting, especially about what's out there today.
"Today's fighters don't compare to what we were like,"he said starting on his dinner salad."They don't know how to box.Their trainers don't know what's going on.Guys like Teddy Bentham,Whitey Bimstein,and Charley Goldman taught me how to fight."
Since he brought up boxing I jumped in.
"How about a fighter like Tyson?"
"You saw what happened when someone stood up to him.The myth was broken,"he said grinning.
"If you had to do it over again would there be anything you'd do different?"
"I wouldn't fight Dulio Loi in Italy."
"Why's that?"
"You'd need a gun to bring into the ring to kill him and then you'd probably lose on a split decision."
"Or get disqualified."
Carlos gave a laugh.
"That guy did 99% of his fighting in Italy.,"he remarked. "He built up his record by playing it safe fighting a lot of no names."
"You don't hear his name brought up much when it comes to naming great champions,"I said.
"It shouldn't be. He never fought in New York.He had a good ol' time playing it safe in Italy."
"I think Loi only lost three fights."
"And one of those times it was against me and that was the only time he came over to fight in the United States.. They talk about his clever defense.All he wanted to do is not get hit. He didn't want to mix it up."
It's funny.I've traveled to Italy four times. Every time I brought up the subject of boxing regarding Italian fighters,the natives would talk about Marciano,LaMotta,and Willie Pep. They would never mention any of their own-even Benvenuti. Goes to show you it's not your record but what's inside of it that matters.
A natty looking Carlos Ortiz at the WBHOF banquet. Notice the smart coat and tie combo.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
If you want to shut up a New Yorker, bring up the weather.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
"Carlos and the King of Con" was a great profile that Mark Kram wrote about Carlos Ortiz. It's available if you google those words.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Goose
Thanks for steering me at that article.Kram's writing style is like two fighters trading punches in the middle of the ring.
Ortiz's fights always intrigued me. I remember when he won the title against Joe Brown in Las Vegas. Brown had held the title for sometime and knew all the tricks of the ring. The fight in Vegas was a stinker. Brown didn't win a round,but it wasn't because Ortiz was that good. Brown did nothing but stand around and look at him. There was a time when Brown slipped to the canvas.He just sat there laughing.Ring Magazine even ran a story asking if the fight was on the level. Then there was Ortiz's first fight with Sugar Ramos in Mexico City.I have to hand it to Daly for wanting a referee who he could count on especially in such hostile territory as Mexico City. Billy Conn was Daly's guy and stopped the fight giving it to Carlos on a cut. Conn also wouldn't let Ramos get close to Ortiz preventing the Cuban to work his body attack.The WBC voided the result. The next two fights with Laguna I thought Ortiz was too strong for him. Carlos was more of a junior welter.Ismael was a small lightweight.When Ortiz lost his title against a good fighter,Teo Cruz ,who was not a world beater by any stretch,it was evident that Carlos didn't like fighting at 135 anymore. His swan song against Ken Buchanan was the result of burning the candle at both ends.It finally caught up with him.
Thanks again
Carlos Ortiz today. He had a good run
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
You're welcome. Bill Daly uttered a classic comment years ago. He was in the gym to witness Roberto Duran's first sparring session in America. After the session, one of Duran's handlers asked Daly"What do you think ?" Daly responded,"How did you catch it and what did you do with the tail ?"
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A Funny Way Of Saying "I Love You"
The best fight I ever saw live and in person was the two Ramoses-Mando and Sugar-up at The Olympic Auditorium in LA. Mando , born in Long Beach, was still hungry and in shape coming off a very tough loss of his title to Panamanian Ismael Laguna at the downtown Sports Arena. Both boys traded punches from the opening bell but Ramos's eyes began to split open and he was bleeding to the point that he couldn't see through all the blood. Jackie McCoy ,Mando's trainer and manager,had no choice but to not let his fighter go out for the 9th round.
Cuba's Sugar Ramos couldn't get down to 125 anymore without feeling drained. After the great Vicente Saldivar beat him up and took away his title in the bullring in Mexico City, Ultiminio was trying to make waves at lightweight but another great fighter,Carlos Ortiz,made life miserable for the ex patriot of Fidel Castro's Cuba. On two occasions -the first time back in the same bullring in DF and again this time in Ortiz's Puerto Rico Sugar couldn't last the distance.
When Mando and Sugar faced off that night in The Olympic they were still on top of their game. They were both titleless but still big draws with big hopes of winning another belt somewhere along the line. Everyone who paid to get in the door got their money's worth.Judges Rudy Jordan and Dick Young scored it a round ahead for Mando while the referee John Thomas had it vice versa in in favor of Sugar.The action was fast non stop and both fighters threw everything they had in their vast repertoires. But Mando was just a wee bit more crafty. He answered everything the still potent powered Cuban delivered.At the start I wanted Sugar to win but Mando's heart and ability had me cheering him on at the end.
Jackie McCoy said that Mando was the most gifted and talented fighter he ever handled. Aileen Eaton referred to Mando as "my baby."But Mando's toughest opponent was himself. Who knows what it is with a once in a lifetime fighter like Mando who has the whole world on a silver platter and then decides to look for a meal scrounging out of a trash can? I've never thought it's boredom that extinguishes these Novas. It's fear.A fear of living up to their potential. Staying on top is their biggest fight.They can't deal with the responsibility and expectations.
I've told you about my principal that was in charge of Southwest High School near the border in San Ysidro. Her name was Christine Aranda. She was born in Boyle Heights and raised by her father and his mother. She worked her way through school and got a PHD from East LA's LaVerne College.She was a counselor at local Garfield High and married her principal who was one of the Tuskegee Airmen in the big war.He retired and she continued with her work as an educator. Her husband had a lot of juice in with the schools and got her a job as a principal where I was at at Southwest High.We became fast friends.She looked like the actress Leslie Caron but grew her hair down more. She told me that her father had a bar in Boyle Heights and that he and Bobby Chacon,and Mando Ramos were drinking buddies. After closing time they'd hop in one of either Mando's or Bobby's sleek late model sports cars,a blond on the arm of each of them,and continue partying till the roosters crowed.Christine Aranda would tell me that she didn't like her father drinking like he did and bringing her along to all those catered parties where she had to make sure she kept the bar stocked to the hilt while her father was mixing drinks and making woo, she would always sigh at the end of one of these sad stories and say,"That was his way of saying he loved me."
After slipping past Sugar Ramos ,Mando and Raul Rojas settled bragging rights in LA with Mando getting Raul to believe that he was training more in Christine Aranda's dad's bar than at The Main Street Gym.Raul who never said "no thanks" when someone was buying a round for the house fell for the ruse ,and then fell in six rounds at The Olympic. Next, it was another tough local,Ruben Navarro,that was all that was left to claim King Of LA, but Ruben wound up denied sitting on the throne.
Pedro Carrasco was one of those European fighters who made a name for himself fighting guys with names like Pietro,Olli,and Jean -Pierre.After the WBC had stripped Ken Buchanan of his belt there was an open spot for lightweight honors. Carrasco and Mando were booked to see who was going to be champ. Carrasco didn't want it any other way but to fight in his native Espana. The fight was a travesty. Mando took along his father for the joyride and to pal around with him at the local bodegas. Despite being sidetracked by wine ,women and song Mando showed too much skill and had acquired as much experience to make Pedro look like a hornless bull in the ring. Mando flattened the handsome Carrasco four times during the fight but the referee sensing that the KO was just around the corner DQ'd the kid from Long Beach.The ref said that Pedro was "pushed" to the canvas. I liked Jackie McCoy's response to all that nonsense,"If he was pushed why didn't he get back up?" Spain went wild with there first ever boxing champ.Mando thew up in the back of Christine Aranda's dad's bar.
There was a rematch and then the rubber fight. One in LA,the rubber" in Spain. Mando was awarded two split decision victories. I thought he got beat both of those times. The first fight Mando showed his best but got robbed. The other two-I'll use that word "travesty "again. But soon after, Mando was fighting his toughest opponent- himself again,Jackie McCoy had to bail him out of jail the night before he got disgraced against Chango Carmona who made a "chango" out of Aileen Eaton's "baby."
Tury Pineda,Mando's next opponent,like a buzzard picked off what flesh was left on the carcass.Mando Ramos wound up his fighting career before he was 25 making 1500 dollars a fight at the reliable Silver Slipper in Las Vegas.
Around 15 years ago I was invited to attend a "Father And Son Boxer" luncheon. I was sitting with Rick Farris and Frank Baltazar Sr. I asked Rick if Mando Ramos was going to be in the room.
"There he is sitting at that far table with his father,"said Rick pointing.
I craned my neck.
"Where?"
"You're looking at him."
I couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't recognize him at all. He must have weighed over 300 pounds. He was with his wife Sylvia and his dad.Mando's son was also at the table. I wanted to go over and introduce myself but I lost my nerve. My obvious compulsion would have been,"What the hell happened to you?"but I didn't want to say that.I should have gone over.I let myself down.
When Mando Ramos died they held a very nice benefit for him at the union hall in Wilmington.As a special treat they showed highlights of his fights on a big screen to his fans.I was sitting with Rick Farris,Randy De La O,Ed Hernandez,Frank Baltaxar and his son Frankie who was a pretty good fighter in his time. They showed some clips of Mando's fight with Sugar Ramos.During one of the exchanges both fell into a short clinch but John Thomas didn't need to break it up.It was a mutual release. During the split Mando shot his right hand to the ribs of Sugar with two crisp shots.
"Did you see that?"exclaimed Frankie."What a thing of beauty that was. I tried to duplicate that move of his when I fought but was never able to pull it off.He had so much in him ."
I looked over to Frankie still transfixed on the screen.
"That was his way he showed that he loved us,"I said.
I should have went over and said something
The best fight I ever saw live and in person was the two Ramoses-Mando and Sugar-up at The Olympic Auditorium in LA. Mando , born in Long Beach, was still hungry and in shape coming off a very tough loss of his title to Panamanian Ismael Laguna at the downtown Sports Arena. Both boys traded punches from the opening bell but Ramos's eyes began to split open and he was bleeding to the point that he couldn't see through all the blood. Jackie McCoy ,Mando's trainer and manager,had no choice but to not let his fighter go out for the 9th round.
Cuba's Sugar Ramos couldn't get down to 125 anymore without feeling drained. After the great Vicente Saldivar beat him up and took away his title in the bullring in Mexico City, Ultiminio was trying to make waves at lightweight but another great fighter,Carlos Ortiz,made life miserable for the ex patriot of Fidel Castro's Cuba. On two occasions -the first time back in the same bullring in DF and again this time in Ortiz's Puerto Rico Sugar couldn't last the distance.
When Mando and Sugar faced off that night in The Olympic they were still on top of their game. They were both titleless but still big draws with big hopes of winning another belt somewhere along the line. Everyone who paid to get in the door got their money's worth.Judges Rudy Jordan and Dick Young scored it a round ahead for Mando while the referee John Thomas had it vice versa in in favor of Sugar.The action was fast non stop and both fighters threw everything they had in their vast repertoires. But Mando was just a wee bit more crafty. He answered everything the still potent powered Cuban delivered.At the start I wanted Sugar to win but Mando's heart and ability had me cheering him on at the end.
Jackie McCoy said that Mando was the most gifted and talented fighter he ever handled. Aileen Eaton referred to Mando as "my baby."But Mando's toughest opponent was himself. Who knows what it is with a once in a lifetime fighter like Mando who has the whole world on a silver platter and then decides to look for a meal scrounging out of a trash can? I've never thought it's boredom that extinguishes these Novas. It's fear.A fear of living up to their potential. Staying on top is their biggest fight.They can't deal with the responsibility and expectations.
I've told you about my principal that was in charge of Southwest High School near the border in San Ysidro. Her name was Christine Aranda. She was born in Boyle Heights and raised by her father and his mother. She worked her way through school and got a PHD from East LA's LaVerne College.She was a counselor at local Garfield High and married her principal who was one of the Tuskegee Airmen in the big war.He retired and she continued with her work as an educator. Her husband had a lot of juice in with the schools and got her a job as a principal where I was at at Southwest High.We became fast friends.She looked like the actress Leslie Caron but grew her hair down more. She told me that her father had a bar in Boyle Heights and that he and Bobby Chacon,and Mando Ramos were drinking buddies. After closing time they'd hop in one of either Mando's or Bobby's sleek late model sports cars,a blond on the arm of each of them,and continue partying till the roosters crowed.Christine Aranda would tell me that she didn't like her father drinking like he did and bringing her along to all those catered parties where she had to make sure she kept the bar stocked to the hilt while her father was mixing drinks and making woo, she would always sigh at the end of one of these sad stories and say,"That was his way of saying he loved me."
After slipping past Sugar Ramos ,Mando and Raul Rojas settled bragging rights in LA with Mando getting Raul to believe that he was training more in Christine Aranda's dad's bar than at The Main Street Gym.Raul who never said "no thanks" when someone was buying a round for the house fell for the ruse ,and then fell in six rounds at The Olympic. Next, it was another tough local,Ruben Navarro,that was all that was left to claim King Of LA, but Ruben wound up denied sitting on the throne.
Pedro Carrasco was one of those European fighters who made a name for himself fighting guys with names like Pietro,Olli,and Jean -Pierre.After the WBC had stripped Ken Buchanan of his belt there was an open spot for lightweight honors. Carrasco and Mando were booked to see who was going to be champ. Carrasco didn't want it any other way but to fight in his native Espana. The fight was a travesty. Mando took along his father for the joyride and to pal around with him at the local bodegas. Despite being sidetracked by wine ,women and song Mando showed too much skill and had acquired as much experience to make Pedro look like a hornless bull in the ring. Mando flattened the handsome Carrasco four times during the fight but the referee sensing that the KO was just around the corner DQ'd the kid from Long Beach.The ref said that Pedro was "pushed" to the canvas. I liked Jackie McCoy's response to all that nonsense,"If he was pushed why didn't he get back up?" Spain went wild with there first ever boxing champ.Mando thew up in the back of Christine Aranda's dad's bar.
There was a rematch and then the rubber fight. One in LA,the rubber" in Spain. Mando was awarded two split decision victories. I thought he got beat both of those times. The first fight Mando showed his best but got robbed. The other two-I'll use that word "travesty "again. But soon after, Mando was fighting his toughest opponent- himself again,Jackie McCoy had to bail him out of jail the night before he got disgraced against Chango Carmona who made a "chango" out of Aileen Eaton's "baby."
Tury Pineda,Mando's next opponent,like a buzzard picked off what flesh was left on the carcass.Mando Ramos wound up his fighting career before he was 25 making 1500 dollars a fight at the reliable Silver Slipper in Las Vegas.
Around 15 years ago I was invited to attend a "Father And Son Boxer" luncheon. I was sitting with Rick Farris and Frank Baltazar Sr. I asked Rick if Mando Ramos was going to be in the room.
"There he is sitting at that far table with his father,"said Rick pointing.
I craned my neck.
"Where?"
"You're looking at him."
I couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't recognize him at all. He must have weighed over 300 pounds. He was with his wife Sylvia and his dad.Mando's son was also at the table. I wanted to go over and introduce myself but I lost my nerve. My obvious compulsion would have been,"What the hell happened to you?"but I didn't want to say that.I should have gone over.I let myself down.
When Mando Ramos died they held a very nice benefit for him at the union hall in Wilmington.As a special treat they showed highlights of his fights on a big screen to his fans.I was sitting with Rick Farris,Randy De La O,Ed Hernandez,Frank Baltaxar and his son Frankie who was a pretty good fighter in his time. They showed some clips of Mando's fight with Sugar Ramos.During one of the exchanges both fell into a short clinch but John Thomas didn't need to break it up.It was a mutual release. During the split Mando shot his right hand to the ribs of Sugar with two crisp shots.
"Did you see that?"exclaimed Frankie."What a thing of beauty that was. I tried to duplicate that move of his when I fought but was never able to pull it off.He had so much in him ."
I looked over to Frankie still transfixed on the screen.
"That was his way he showed that he loved us,"I said.
I should have went over and said something
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Prearrangement
No fighter wants to go around boasting that he "threw"a fight let alone admitting to it under the third degree.If you read LaMotta's Raging Bull he details about how when training for the Fox fight he injured his kidney and had to go to the doctor. Of course the doctor had it on record that Jake's kidney wasn't a hundred percent. Thus when LaMotta caved in to Black Jack and then ensued the inquiry by the commission about the phony fight,Jake showed them his doctor's excuse.
On the forum we go along giving our takes on so and so's fights not giving any thought that maybe some of those fights were staged. It's hard to put the "fix factor" into any analysis of a boxing match unless everyone comes out in the open and confesses. Willie Pep never cleared his conscience admitting that his fight with Lulu Perez in Boston was crooked.
"I would never do such a thing,"said the Wil Of The Wisp."I love boxing too much,"he told the district attorney.I don't think anyone got watery eyed listening to that.
When Terry McGovern made the great Joe Gans look not so great in Chicago the public cried foul. Fortunately ,they filmed that fight and we can make up our own minds. My mind was made up real fast. I concurred with all the fans sitting in the Tattersall Arena in Chicago-they didn't come to watch a play act. They came to see a fight.
I'm pretty sure I've seen some hocus pocus in the ring. I told you about the time I took in the card at the San Diego Coliseum back in 1970. On one of the undercards a local heavyweight prospect ,Clay Hodges,who had served in the Marines ala Kenny Norton,was going into his second pro fight against somebody they flew out from Philly by the name of Jimmy Young.No one had heard of Young, and with Hodges, obviously, they wanted to build up a fan base. I had seen Hodges fight prior and thought that the San Diego fans were putting too much stock in him too early. He had an impressive amateur record beating George Foreman and Jerry Quarry but that was then and this was now. Jimmy Young? Hodges will kill him they wrote in the papers. Well the bell sounds for round number one and before you could say Philly Cheese Steak,Hodges is on the seat of his pants. He got back up alright, and then down he went again. The round wasn't even half gone and I was wishing I had had a bet on Young. But then Young backed off all of a sudden.Then these two old guys in sharkskin suits sitting in front of me turns around. One of them's got a big s--t eating grin on his face.
"I've got 20 bucks saying that Hodges is going to win,"he said showing his crooked stained teeth.
"You're on old man,"I shot back at him."Hodges won't last another round."
Well the fight was scheduled for six and Young didn't throw six more punches the entire fight.At the final bell it was a no brainer that Hodges would walk out of the ring the winner.So I'm reaching for my wallet when old crooked teeth turns around again smiling even wider than before.
"Keep your money sonny.I knew Hodges would win."
In a way I felt sorry for Hodges.I'm sure he didn't know what was going on. All the wise guys have to do is get to just one of the fighters and the guys with him. His opponent thinks everything is "jake."Hodges' next fight was up in LA and he was KO'd by a big muscle bound fighter by the name of Kenyatta Honkenhall who broke Hodges's jaw in the process.Hodges bever fought again.
There are a couple of fights that are on YouTube that make me wince. My pal James "The Heat" Kinchen versus Virgil Hill in Hill's backyard of Bismarck, North Dakota for the vacant WBA light heavyweigh ttitle..I don't even want to describe it.I couldn't bring myself to ask "The Heat" what was up with that one.I didn't wantto hear an excuse and I didn't want to hear the truth either.
Another fight that makes me reach for Bi Carb is Charlie Powell and Mike DeJohn in Mike's playground, War Memorial Auditorium in Syracuse,NY.Charlie was always such a clean cut gentleman pillar of the community in Southeast San Diego.The fight's on YouTube. Go ahead and you watch it.Please don't reply with a quote.
It's against the law to take a dive. A fighter even has to report to the authorities if he's been approached by the guys in the sharkskin suits if asked to do the ol' flopperoo. But once a fighter agrees to go along with this cardinal sin of boxing,it's too late. He's sold his soul to the devil. If he goes to the cops or pulls a double cross in the ring,he may never fight again.'That's unless they have some sort of category for the physically challenged.
James "The Heat" Kinchen
No fighter wants to go around boasting that he "threw"a fight let alone admitting to it under the third degree.If you read LaMotta's Raging Bull he details about how when training for the Fox fight he injured his kidney and had to go to the doctor. Of course the doctor had it on record that Jake's kidney wasn't a hundred percent. Thus when LaMotta caved in to Black Jack and then ensued the inquiry by the commission about the phony fight,Jake showed them his doctor's excuse.
On the forum we go along giving our takes on so and so's fights not giving any thought that maybe some of those fights were staged. It's hard to put the "fix factor" into any analysis of a boxing match unless everyone comes out in the open and confesses. Willie Pep never cleared his conscience admitting that his fight with Lulu Perez in Boston was crooked.
"I would never do such a thing,"said the Wil Of The Wisp."I love boxing too much,"he told the district attorney.I don't think anyone got watery eyed listening to that.
When Terry McGovern made the great Joe Gans look not so great in Chicago the public cried foul. Fortunately ,they filmed that fight and we can make up our own minds. My mind was made up real fast. I concurred with all the fans sitting in the Tattersall Arena in Chicago-they didn't come to watch a play act. They came to see a fight.
I'm pretty sure I've seen some hocus pocus in the ring. I told you about the time I took in the card at the San Diego Coliseum back in 1970. On one of the undercards a local heavyweight prospect ,Clay Hodges,who had served in the Marines ala Kenny Norton,was going into his second pro fight against somebody they flew out from Philly by the name of Jimmy Young.No one had heard of Young, and with Hodges, obviously, they wanted to build up a fan base. I had seen Hodges fight prior and thought that the San Diego fans were putting too much stock in him too early. He had an impressive amateur record beating George Foreman and Jerry Quarry but that was then and this was now. Jimmy Young? Hodges will kill him they wrote in the papers. Well the bell sounds for round number one and before you could say Philly Cheese Steak,Hodges is on the seat of his pants. He got back up alright, and then down he went again. The round wasn't even half gone and I was wishing I had had a bet on Young. But then Young backed off all of a sudden.Then these two old guys in sharkskin suits sitting in front of me turns around. One of them's got a big s--t eating grin on his face.
"I've got 20 bucks saying that Hodges is going to win,"he said showing his crooked stained teeth.
"You're on old man,"I shot back at him."Hodges won't last another round."
Well the fight was scheduled for six and Young didn't throw six more punches the entire fight.At the final bell it was a no brainer that Hodges would walk out of the ring the winner.So I'm reaching for my wallet when old crooked teeth turns around again smiling even wider than before.
"Keep your money sonny.I knew Hodges would win."
In a way I felt sorry for Hodges.I'm sure he didn't know what was going on. All the wise guys have to do is get to just one of the fighters and the guys with him. His opponent thinks everything is "jake."Hodges' next fight was up in LA and he was KO'd by a big muscle bound fighter by the name of Kenyatta Honkenhall who broke Hodges's jaw in the process.Hodges bever fought again.
There are a couple of fights that are on YouTube that make me wince. My pal James "The Heat" Kinchen versus Virgil Hill in Hill's backyard of Bismarck, North Dakota for the vacant WBA light heavyweigh ttitle..I don't even want to describe it.I couldn't bring myself to ask "The Heat" what was up with that one.I didn't wantto hear an excuse and I didn't want to hear the truth either.
Another fight that makes me reach for Bi Carb is Charlie Powell and Mike DeJohn in Mike's playground, War Memorial Auditorium in Syracuse,NY.Charlie was always such a clean cut gentleman pillar of the community in Southeast San Diego.The fight's on YouTube. Go ahead and you watch it.Please don't reply with a quote.
It's against the law to take a dive. A fighter even has to report to the authorities if he's been approached by the guys in the sharkskin suits if asked to do the ol' flopperoo. But once a fighter agrees to go along with this cardinal sin of boxing,it's too late. He's sold his soul to the devil. If he goes to the cops or pulls a double cross in the ring,he may never fight again.'That's unless they have some sort of category for the physically challenged.
James "The Heat" Kinchen
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Playing The Wrong Cards
I was just reading today about Marvin Lewis,the fired coach of the Cincinnati Bengals. He's pissed off because he feels he'd been slighted when interviewed for the head coaching position for the Dallas Cowboys because of the NFL's "Rooney Rule" that states that a team must interview at least one minority candidate before selecting their guy. Marv was interviewed and he's black and he didn't get the job. The Bengals stuck with him for 16 years and he never got them to the playoffs.Lewis says that the NFL owners need to "open up the process a bit more and offer more opportunities."
Well,there's nothing to prohibit a black person from owning an NFL franchise.The owners can vote you in or out,but to this day there has never been a black person who has tossed his hat(filled with money) in the ring.Shahid Khan,a Pakistani is owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and Kim Pegula from Korea owns the Buffalo Bills,but they're not black.. Mike Tomlin,a black head coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers,,has been with the team for 13 years and has gotten to the payoffs nine times and won a super Bowl in 2007.Jerry Richardson, the owner of the Carolina Panthers wants to sell his team and now Sean "Puff Daddy' Holmes(the black rapper) is becoming very interested wanting to buy. Holmes has New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft putting in a good word.,
The talk on the street was that Lewis ,when he was in charge at Cincinnati, let the black players run roughshod all over the place thus causing a big discipline problem.No discipline equates to very few victories. 16 years and no playoffs?He's lucky he stuck around as long as he did.First of all why should they make a rule saying an owner of a team must interview at least one person of colr?It's his team .He can interview anyone he wants. Next it will be the owners will have to interview at least one woman.One gay. One ex felon. One terrorist.
Compound this idea with all these black players(and the white acolytes) taking a knee during the National Anthem.This BS started with Kaepernick and the brothers who are making a statement for "their cause".Former NFL lineman Warren Sapp refers to NFL owners as "slave masters."The NFL talks about safety.Can't strike with your head. Can't strike TO an opponent's head. But they'll let these players run around with dreadlocks(the white players copied it real fast) and you gonna' tell me that's a safe practice? You can't grab a guy's facemask,but there's all that braided hair hanging out there to tug on.But ban the dreads and the black players will call you a racist.
The NBA is a photo copy of the NFL. All these black players feel they're being singled out. The owners.The league.The white fans. They're all racists. The race card they're holding trumps a royal flush.(Did I just say Trump?).Hell,take a look at the stadium or arena next time you go to an NFL or NBA game.You won't see many blacks in the seats that have shelled out their money.But you can get the white owners are not going to forget to sign their checks.
So where's boxing in all this?I don't see black fighters playing the race card like in the NFL or NBA. Ali did it back when, but it was time when blacks had a legitimate gripe. They were being drafted to go to Nam and then when they came back to the States they had to use the "colored" toilet. And etc. There's no etc. anymore.(And don't nit pick me on this or I'll bring up how I was jumped by ten brothers out in the street for doing nothing and if it hadn't been for the cops seeing me getting killed I would have been)
As of today we've had a black president winning two consecutive terms. Two black attorney generals.A black woman Secretary of State,Black supreme court justices.The head of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff..Every major big city has or has had a black mayor. And The King Of LA is Lebron after abdicating being King Of Cleveland. Blacks are in just about every commercial on TV,sit coms,.and action movies.Who's going to kick The Rock's ass?What more do they want besides Trump's head on a platter?
Getting back to boxing.Here's how the typical interview starts off after a fight and the black guy's the winner.
"First I want to thank God..."
If you look at an NFL or NBA game you'll never see a black guy as a waterbody holding the bottle and squirting water into a player's mouth or taping a guy's feet on the bench or draping a towel on a perspiring head. That scene you don't see in boxing. Go to the gym and the fighters ,regardless of color, are on a level social field. Talk is very cheap in the gym.You're play the cards you've been dealt and there's no room to bluff.
No Viet Cong ever called him n----r,but I'm sure they would have had no qualms about cutting off his you know what and stuffing it in his mouth
When someone talks to you they want you to hear it or they wouldn't have said it.Believing it or not is up to you.
I was just reading today about Marvin Lewis,the fired coach of the Cincinnati Bengals. He's pissed off because he feels he'd been slighted when interviewed for the head coaching position for the Dallas Cowboys because of the NFL's "Rooney Rule" that states that a team must interview at least one minority candidate before selecting their guy. Marv was interviewed and he's black and he didn't get the job. The Bengals stuck with him for 16 years and he never got them to the playoffs.Lewis says that the NFL owners need to "open up the process a bit more and offer more opportunities."
Well,there's nothing to prohibit a black person from owning an NFL franchise.The owners can vote you in or out,but to this day there has never been a black person who has tossed his hat(filled with money) in the ring.Shahid Khan,a Pakistani is owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and Kim Pegula from Korea owns the Buffalo Bills,but they're not black.. Mike Tomlin,a black head coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers,,has been with the team for 13 years and has gotten to the payoffs nine times and won a super Bowl in 2007.Jerry Richardson, the owner of the Carolina Panthers wants to sell his team and now Sean "Puff Daddy' Holmes(the black rapper) is becoming very interested wanting to buy. Holmes has New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft putting in a good word.,
The talk on the street was that Lewis ,when he was in charge at Cincinnati, let the black players run roughshod all over the place thus causing a big discipline problem.No discipline equates to very few victories. 16 years and no playoffs?He's lucky he stuck around as long as he did.First of all why should they make a rule saying an owner of a team must interview at least one person of colr?It's his team .He can interview anyone he wants. Next it will be the owners will have to interview at least one woman.One gay. One ex felon. One terrorist.
Compound this idea with all these black players(and the white acolytes) taking a knee during the National Anthem.This BS started with Kaepernick and the brothers who are making a statement for "their cause".Former NFL lineman Warren Sapp refers to NFL owners as "slave masters."The NFL talks about safety.Can't strike with your head. Can't strike TO an opponent's head. But they'll let these players run around with dreadlocks(the white players copied it real fast) and you gonna' tell me that's a safe practice? You can't grab a guy's facemask,but there's all that braided hair hanging out there to tug on.But ban the dreads and the black players will call you a racist.
The NBA is a photo copy of the NFL. All these black players feel they're being singled out. The owners.The league.The white fans. They're all racists. The race card they're holding trumps a royal flush.(Did I just say Trump?).Hell,take a look at the stadium or arena next time you go to an NFL or NBA game.You won't see many blacks in the seats that have shelled out their money.But you can get the white owners are not going to forget to sign their checks.
So where's boxing in all this?I don't see black fighters playing the race card like in the NFL or NBA. Ali did it back when, but it was time when blacks had a legitimate gripe. They were being drafted to go to Nam and then when they came back to the States they had to use the "colored" toilet. And etc. There's no etc. anymore.(And don't nit pick me on this or I'll bring up how I was jumped by ten brothers out in the street for doing nothing and if it hadn't been for the cops seeing me getting killed I would have been)
As of today we've had a black president winning two consecutive terms. Two black attorney generals.A black woman Secretary of State,Black supreme court justices.The head of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff..Every major big city has or has had a black mayor. And The King Of LA is Lebron after abdicating being King Of Cleveland. Blacks are in just about every commercial on TV,sit coms,.and action movies.Who's going to kick The Rock's ass?What more do they want besides Trump's head on a platter?
Getting back to boxing.Here's how the typical interview starts off after a fight and the black guy's the winner.
"First I want to thank God..."
If you look at an NFL or NBA game you'll never see a black guy as a waterbody holding the bottle and squirting water into a player's mouth or taping a guy's feet on the bench or draping a towel on a perspiring head. That scene you don't see in boxing. Go to the gym and the fighters ,regardless of color, are on a level social field. Talk is very cheap in the gym.You're play the cards you've been dealt and there's no room to bluff.
No Viet Cong ever called him n----r,but I'm sure they would have had no qualms about cutting off his you know what and stuffing it in his mouth
When someone talks to you they want you to hear it or they wouldn't have said it.Believing it or not is up to you.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Hello. This is a fantastic thread. I may lose my job being stuck here 