Muhammad Ali without Dundee, What if??

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 15 Mar 2005, 15:19

It was often stated during Muhammad Alis glorious career that all he needed in his corner was a mirror. Do you think that this is a case of "many a true word spoken in jest" ?

Or do you think that Angelo Dundee was a vital part of the Ali story? Would history have been very different if say Ali has stayed with Archie Moore?

Dundee has been described as a great motivator, but sometimes Ali turned up for fights in less than peak condition, so did Ali always listen to his trainer?

Any opinions fight fans?

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 11 Apr 2005, 15:07

As important as Dundee may have been, I believe Ali would have been immortal no matter who he had. He was one in a million. Ali made Dundee, not the other way round

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 19 Apr 2005, 17:06

Without Dundee, he would have lost to cooper.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 19 Apr 2005, 18:17

And in turn wouldn't have had the muslims behind him, and in turn would have gotten knocked to bits by Liston if* they ever fought.

*considering he would have lost to cooper

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 20 Apr 2005, 02:37

With regard to Ali "just having a mirror in his corner" rather than a proper trainer just compare Tyson with Kevin Rooney and Tyson after he dumped Rooney. Or Naseem Hamed before and after he left Brendan Ingle

If you accept that point then maybe the question becomes "Would Ali have fared as well with another trainer of the same era...?" and I think the answer is "Yes, depending on who it was" As best I can recall, the great trainers of that era included Yancey Durham, Ray Arcel, Chickie Ferrera..and of course Cus D'Amato.... and at this stage I'd have to go and dig out the old magazines in order to add to that list.

If Clay/Ali had been with any of these guys he'd still have been a champion. But that said, Dundee was a sharp operator, had a very successful stable in Miami (Willie Pastrano, Luis Rodriguez, etc) and maybe he added a little something extra to the chemistry. I wouldn't decry his contribution to the story.

J

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 29 Apr 2005, 02:54

KOJOE90 wrote:It was often stated during Muhammad Alis glorious career that all he needed in his corner was a mirror. Do you think that this is a case of "many a true word spoken in jest" ?

Or do you think that Angelo Dundee was a vital part of the Ali story? Would history have been very different if say Ali has stayed with Archie Moore?

Dundee has been described as a great motivator, but sometimes Ali turned up for fights in less than peak condition, so did Ali always listen to his trainer?

Any opinions fight fans?

Well, Moore was a top-notch trainer himself, so I expect Ali, with his kind of talent, would still have been a great fighter under Moore's tutelage. Without a great trainer, though, and one who could keep him motivated and focused all the time, I think Ali probably would've been less great than we remember. He probably would've had a loss early in his career, probably would've lost to another contender or two along the way, and likely wouldn't have been able to overcome Frazier twice out of three without a trainer like Dundee, in my opinion. But of course he did have Dundee, and I'm glad he did, so history could turn out with him as perhaps the greatest heavyweight to ever live.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 11 Jun 2006, 09:57

New members any thoughts?

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 11 Jun 2006, 13:53

Sometimes people forghet that Dundee trained many other great champions so he wasn't some guy who was carried along for the ride.

Also note that Ali - despite his involvement with the Black Muslims and all the things he had to say about White America at the time (a) kept Angelo as his trainer and (b) would never allow anyone to bad mouth him...remember the TV doc about the "Rumble in the Jungle" where someone passes a comment about Angelo being white and Ali turns on the guy and says "Don't ever speak like that about Angelo" ...the point I'm getting to is that Ali must have placed a high value on having Dundee as his trainer.

Would he have been a champion with another trainer.... yes, in all probability, depending on who that trainer was of course!

J

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 14 Jun 2006, 08:25

rumour has it that angelo dundee and elijah mohammad were one and the same person only using a disguise (big glasses, bad skin etc)
and, when you think about it, they were never seen in the same place at the same time were they....

Muhammad Ali without Dundee, What if??

Muhammad Ali without Dundee, What if??

Ali and Dundee

Re: Muhammad Ali without Dundee, What if??