Is Fury a lineal champion?

[boxing_rocks]

And was Wlad lineal? Buffer thinks no. Wlad never beat "the man".

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2020/01/mi ... -nonsense/

[Onetimeonly]

Lineal is way outdated and pointless. I would say that wlad was and fury was. I can see the argument against it but it's pretty thin. Nobody is now.

[gilgamesh]

And was Wlad lineal? Buffer thinks no. Wlad never beat "the man".

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2020/01/mi ... -nonsense/

There wasn't really a "The Man" to beat for Wlad. Lennox retired as Champion, and the titles were just kinda all over the place for a while. Wlad earned recognition as the top guy because he unified most of the titles, and beat the majority of the top contenders he could've faced. Wlad had as good a claim as he could've I'd say.

Fury beat him, and never has been beaten in the ring so in that sense yes he's the lineal Champion, but it's definitely being run into the ground by how significant it's supposed to be by the cheerleaders at ESPN.

I'll be glad when the Wilder rematch is over because one way or the other, we'll have one less "World Champion" in the division, which is always a good thing.

[Noxy]

This only seems to exist for HW. It’s dated anyway.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

It only exists for hw usually because nobody can move up i weight so its easier to track

Wlad was the recognized champion after beating chagaev

Fury beat him. But was suspended for ped usage(i dont count the bogus retirement)

So you look at it 3 ways:

Accept the official results and fury is champ

Accept he won but cheated and is stripped and it should be vacant

Say he cheated, wlad should have kept the title and Joshua is champ

I think number 2. Espn says number 1

[squiggy]

There will never be "the man" again at any division if people keep thinking that holding all belts is a useful criterion.

[Enlightened-One]

There will never be "the man" again at any division if people keep thinking that holding all belts is a useful criterion.

What would happen if Vasyl Lomachenko beats Teofimo Lopez at 135lbs during April, which has been heavily rumoured (to the extent that the fighters themselves are claiming that there’s an agreement on paper for the bout to happen)?

Do we count the WBC franchise championship, which superficially seems superior than the regular title?

[Ruthless-RKO]

You can't beat 'the man' if he's retired. Wlad made a very good case. He fought everyone he could. Every contender, took a lot of 0's on the way. He fought everyone apart from Vitali. He also fought much better opponents than Vitali and captured 3 world titles. Many say he became lineal when he beat Chagaev which was also for the Ring Mag belt.

I hear some say it was when he beat Povetkin. Either way, he beat them both.

I think it's a good case, to say, we can consier the winner of Fury and Wilder as lineal. On one part, Fury is already claiming he is. Another is the Ring is recognising this for their vacant belt as numer 1 vs. 2.
Also, AJ ruined it for himself for losing against Ruiz in the first place. Just because he has 3 of the belts, doesn't mean he's considered as one of the top 2. Whilst he lost, Fury and Wilder kept winning.

[Enlightened-One]

It only exists for hw usually because nobody can move up i weight so its easier to track

Wlad was the recognized champion after beating chagaev

Fury beat him. But was suspended for ped usage(i dont count the bogus retirement)

So you look at it 3 ways:

Accept the official results and fury is champ

Accept he won but cheated and is stripped and it should be vacant

Say he cheated, wlad should have kept the title and Joshua is champ

I think number 2. Espn says number 1

The lineal championship exists for all weight classes (i.e. Canelo at 160lbs and Artur Beterbiev at 175lbs).

The lineal champion is usually considered "the man who beat the man" (i.e. by beating the previous lineal titleholder).

Tyson Fury is technically the lineal champion. There’s no ambiguity about this.

That being said, the “lineal” champion isn’t necessarily the best fighter in that division (i.e. Shannon Briggs [when Lewis and Holyfield held all the titles] & Michael Spinks [when Mike Tyson was the undisputed champion]).

Also, Guillermo Rigondeaux has been the lineal champion at super bantamweight for the last 2½ years, despite not possessing any of the official world titles at that weight, not currently being considered the best fighter at 122lbs, as well as losing to Lomachenko at 130lbs after acquiring the lineal championship in the lower division.

So it's clear that lineal champions are simply considered “the man that beat the man”. It isn't always a prestigious status to hold.

Top Rank and ESPN will inevitably market Fury’s lineal title reign to the mainstream masses, because it elevates his status, so that naive casuals “buy” into the idea that his status is on a par with Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua.

I don’t really see the point in contesting Tyson Fury’s lineal titleholder credentials, because it’s a non-issue. Most hardcore fight fans couldn’t care less about this moniker.

[joshj909]

It only exists for hw usually because nobody can move up i weight so its easier to track

Wlad was the recognized champion after beating chagaev

Fury beat him. But was suspended for ped usage(i dont count the bogus retirement)

So you look at it 3 ways:

Accept the official results and fury is champ

Accept he won but cheated and is stripped and it should be vacant

Say he cheated, wlad should have kept the title and Joshua is champ

I think number 2. Espn says number 1

I agree with number two. He failed drug tests and retired (however bogus it was).

The retirement thing is also important as what if AJ/Wilder hypothetically unified the four belts while he was "retired" and then he came back, who is the lineal champ then? The approach has to be consistent whether they did do this or not. If Lennox came back today why would he not reserve the right to regain his lineal status?

Can lineal champs not also be stripped for failing drug tests and cheating?

[Enlightened-One]

It only exists for hw usually because nobody can move up i weight so its easier to track

Wlad was the recognized champion after beating chagaev

Fury beat him. But was suspended for ped usage(i dont count the bogus retirement)

So you look at it 3 ways:

Accept the official results and fury is champ

Accept he won but cheated and is stripped and it should be vacant

Say he cheated, wlad should have kept the title and Joshua is champ

I think number 2. Espn says number 1

I agree with number two. He failed drug tests and retired (however bogus it was).

The retirement thing is also important as what if AJ/Wilder hypothetically unified the four belts while he was "retired" and then he came back, who is the lineal champ then? The approach has to be consistent whether they did do this or not. If Lennox came back today why would he not reserve the right to regain his lineal status?

Can lineal champs not also be stripped for failing drug tests and cheating?

Tyson Fury has temporarily retired numerous times throughout his career. Very few took any of these announcements seriously. Several media outlets, such as Boxing News and World Boxing Monthly still regarded Fury as the lineal champion during the Brit’s period of inactivity.

Tyson Fury didn't vacate The RING or Lineal titles.

The majority of Fury’s most recent period of inactivity was forced upon him, due to the manner in which UKAD and the BBBofC handled his situation.

Also, when James J. Corbett temporarily retired, and as per the Tyson Fury situation, very few took his retirement seriously. So Corbett retained ownership of the lineal title, despite Peter Maher claiming to be the new titleholder.

As far as I’m aware, a lineal champion cannot be stripped of their title due to a suspension, since they’re temporary in nature.

Can you name one lineal champion that was stripped due to receiving a temporary suspension for testing positive for banned substances?

[joshj909]

I agree with number two. He failed drug tests and retired (however bogus it was).

The retirement thing is also important as what if AJ/Wilder hypothetically unified the four belts while he was "retired" and then he came back, who is the lineal champ then? The approach has to be consistent whether they did do this or not. If Lennox came back today why would he not reserve the right to regain his lineal status?

Can lineal champs not also be stripped for failing drug tests and cheating?

Tyson Fury has temporarily retired numerous times throughout his career. Very few took any of these announcements seriously. Several media outlets, such as Boxing News and World Boxing Monthly still regarded Fury as the lineal champion during the Brit’s period of inactivity.

The majority of Fury’s most recent period of inactivity was forced upon him, due to the manner in which UKAD and the BBBofC handled his situation.

Also, when James J. Corbett temporarily retired, and as per the Tyson Fury situation, very few took his retirement seriously. So Corbett retained ownership of the lineal title, despite Peter Maher claiming to be the new titleholder.

As far as I’m aware, a lineal champion cannot be stripped of their title due to a suspension, since they’re temporary in nature.

Can you name one lineal champion that was stripped due to receiving a temporary suspension for testing positive for banned substances?

If they can't lose their position by being found guilty of cheating then the title has much LESS value than the alphabet titles.

[Enlightened-One]

If they can't lose their position by being found guilty of cheating then the title has much LESS value than the alphabet titles.

You're probably right.

[Bandog]

If they can't lose their position by being found guilty of cheating then the title has much LESS value than the alphabet titles.

You're probably right.

Normally retiring causes you to lose your lineal title, if there is such a thing. They may as well create a belt for it, since they created so many other bogus belts.

[littlepug]

It’s a mess, can you imagine being a new comer to the sport and trying to figure it all out? Or try explaining it all to a new fan and it just sounds like gibberish. It’s probably possible in some kind of circumstance to have the heavyweight top 10 made up of a Lineal champ, an IBF champ, a WBC champ, a WBO champ, a WBA champ, a WBA super champ, a WBA regular champ, an IBO champ, a WBU champ and a WBF champ ! Try explaining that situation to a newcomer, I wouldn’t know where to start !

[Enlightened-One]

You're probably right.

Normally retiring causes you to lose your lineal title, if there is such a thing. They may as well create a belt for it, since they created so many other bogus belts.

If the retirement was official (where the fighter vacates the lineal title), taken seriously by the majority of fight fans and the media, rather than simply being a Tweet posted by a mentally ill person that was very quickly retracted shortly afterwards, then I’d normally agree with you.

However, James J. Corbett and Tyson Fury’s temporary retirements weren’t taken seriously and neither fighter vacated their lineal belts, so they retained ownership of them. In fact the Brit’s period of inactivity was predominantly caused by the UKAD situation rather than his "fake" temporary retirement.

I don’t really have an opinion either way as to whether I personally agree with this practice or not, but this is simply the common perception amongst the media and fight fans.

And to be honest, the lineal title doesn’t carry enough prestige for me to care either way. I don’t think we should really invest much time in debating whether or not Tyson deserves ownership of a status that is essentially meaningless amongst hardcore fight fans.

You're right though, a permanent "official" retirement usually results in the lineal title being vacated.

[squiggy]

To me, it isn't even worth getting caught up in what they're saying about retiring, or how seriously people are taking it: They're either fighting or they aren't. And there should be a certain period of inactivity after which one stops considering a guy a champion. If old man Lennox Lewis came out of retirement, you'd have to be crazy to say he was still lineal, even though he never lost it in the ring. He lost it when he stopped defending it.

[Enlightened-One]

To me, it isn't even worth getting caught up in what they're saying about retiring, or how seriously people are taking it: They're either fighting or they aren't. And there should be a certain period of inactivity after which one stops considering a guy a champion. If old man Lennox Lewis came out of retirement, you'd have to be crazy to say he was still lineal, even though he never lost it in the ring. He lost it when he stopped defending it.

Tyson Fury retired on Twitter on the 3rd October 2016, by posting the following comment:

“Boxing is the saddest thing I ever took part in, all a pile of sh_t, I’m the greatest, & I’m also retired, so go suck a d_ck, happy days.”

Three hours later, he posted the following Tweet:

“Hahahaha u think you will get rid of the GYPSYKING that easy!!! I’m here to stay. #TheGreatest just shows u what the Medea (sic) are like. Tut tut.

He subsequently posted a couple of Tweets during 2017 hinting that wasn’t sure about whether he was going to be fighting again, but he clearly didn’t declare any intention to actually retire.

It’s not as if Tyson Fury hasn’t got a categorically proven track-record for posting provocative and controversial Tweets and videos, which means that very few people take his words seriously.

The main reason why Tyson Fury was inactive for 2½ years, was due to his situation with UKAD and the BBBofC - not due to any temporary "retirement".

[cormack]

it BS anyway

and frankly apart from VK he hasnt beaten anyone of note or stature .

[Onetimeonly]

Tyson Fury has temporarily retired numerous times throughout his career. Very few took any of these announcements seriously. Several media outlets, such as Boxing News and World Boxing Monthly still regarded Fury as the lineal champion during the Brit’s period of inactivity.

The majority of Fury’s most recent period of inactivity was forced upon him, due to the manner in which UKAD and the BBBofC handled his situation.

Also, when James J. Corbett temporarily retired, and as per the Tyson Fury situation, very few took his retirement seriously. So Corbett retained ownership of the lineal title, despite Peter Maher claiming to be the new titleholder.

As far as I’m aware, a lineal champion cannot be stripped of their title due to a suspension, since they’re temporary in nature.

Can you name one lineal champion that was stripped due to receiving a temporary suspension for testing positive for banned substances?

If they can't lose their position by being found guilty of cheating then the title has much LESS value than the alphabet titles.

Regardless of the terms it definitely has way less value than the alphabet belts. You're spot on though, fury 'retired' and didn't fight for years. That does it.

[boxing_rocks]

You can't beat 'the man' if he's retired.

Correct, but then in order to start a new lineage, you need to unify all major titles. We will never know who was better, Wlad or Vitaly, because they refused to fight each other.

[Enlightened-One]

Regardless of the terms it definitely has way less value than the alphabet belts. You're spot on though, fury 'retired' and didn't fight for years. That does it.

Fury posted a fake retirement tweet and retracted it three hours later. He was inactive for a couple of years mainly because of the UKAD/BBBofC situation.

He's still widely regarded as the lineal champion.

[Syntax Error]

This only seems to exist for HW. It’s dated anyway.

Spot on.

I never hear anyone talking about the lineal minimumweight champion for example.

The concept, thanks in part to the alphabet leeches is long lost.

Tyson Fury calls himself the linear champion, but when he disappeared for nearly three years to become an overweight coke head, what happened to the so-called lineal title then?

If you're going to proclaim yourself the lineal champion, at least respect the sport enough to stick around and defend your title in ring, instead of vanishing
for a long period, then suddenly re-emerging and claiming you're still the lineal champion.

[Enlightened-One]

Correct, but then in order to start a new lineage, you need to unify all major titles. We will never know who was better, Wlad or Vitaly, because they refused to fight each other.

Wladimir Klitschko earned The RING and lineal titles during the Chagaev bout, where the universally regarded 1st and 3rd rated heavyweights faced each other. Even though Vitali was rated 2nd at the time, the brothers were never going to fight.

Even if you disagree with Wladimir earning his lineal championship in this manner, he definitely earned it when he beat Kubrat Pulev, since it was the top-two heavyweights facing each other, after Vitali had retired.

The titles don’t have to be unified for the vacant lineal championship to be fought for, since all it requires is the two highest-rated fighters to compete against each other.

[Enlightened-One]

This only seems to exist for HW. It’s dated anyway.

Spot on.

I never hear anyone talking about the lineal minimumweight champion for example.

The lineal title exists for other weight classes, such as middleweight.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/ ... guel-cotto