The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

[sturm vogel]

I wonder if any of those guys specifically , or Tyson , Holy etc woulda done other sports instead though. I'm sure they all playd ball at some point, perhaps boxing had a draw on them that none others could have. Or you have a guy like Tyson who was pretty much placed into boxing

Yeah, it's a generic argument. More factors at play. Holyfield probably the most athletic HW outside of Ali and he barely got called on to play HS ball. Funnily enough, one of his sons had a good year at UGA.

What exactly did Holyfield do that was "athletic" that other heavyweights didn't do?

[Blodhemn]

Yeah, it's a generic argument. More factors at play. Holyfield probably the most athletic HW outside of Ali and he barely got called on to play HS ball. Funnily enough, one of his sons had a good year at UGA.

What exactly did Holyfield do that was "athletic" that other heavyweights didn't do?

Throw punches in combo with good footwork/balance continuously? Partially HGH fueled, sure, but nobody with that style has done it better.

[sturm vogel]

What exactly did Holyfield do that was "athletic" that other heavyweights didn't do?

Throw punches in combo with good footwork/balance continuously? Partially HGH fueled, sure, but nobody with that style has done it better.

Throwing punches in combinations is bread and butter work for heavyweights for a century now. Moving and punching in combinations at heavyweight goes back to Tunney and Dempsey. Since then every decade has seen the methods practiced. These are skills learned in the gyms; some fighters learn that style others never wanted to learn it and didn't have the trainer to teach it. Don't see how it is any more athletic than learning to master slip, slide, bob and weave, step out-step away and counter while not constantly legging it? Just a style difference.

[Blodhemn]

Throw punches in combo with good footwork/balance continuously? Partially HGH fueled, sure, but nobody with that style has done it better.

Throwing punches in combinations is bread and butter work for heavyweights for a century now. Moving and punching in combinations at heavyweight goes back to Tunney and Dempsey. Since then every decade has seen the methods practiced. These are skills learned in the gyms; some fighters learn that style others never wanted to learn it and didn't have the trainer to teach it. Don't see how it is any more athletic than learning to master slip, slide, bob and weave, step out-step away and counter while not constantly legging it? Just a style difference.

I'm all ears. Tell me more.

[p4p1]

People are stupid though. The way Latino is labelled as a race shits me to tears tbh. You’re either mixed race, European, Native American or black/African. The fact that they speak languages that evolved from Latin has fornicate all to do with their race. Pet peeve of mine.

And yeah Canelo is Caucasian as fornicate.

The fact you care so much about what race another person considers themselves makes you one stupid racist pudendum. Life’s too short, couldn’t give too fvcks what race another person is and it’s no concern of mine

I know the difference between race, culture and language and that doesn’t make me racist.

[gilgamesh]

I'm just saying they don't identify as White people, and would likely be offended as all hell at being categorized as such. Personally I think people put more thought into race and all that sh*t than it's worth, but that's a problem for the whole human race to resolve for itself, and I sure ain't the guy to fix it

People are stupid though. The way Latino is labelled as a race shits me to tears tbh. You’re either mixed race, European, Native American or black/African. The fact that they speak languages that evolved from Latin has fornicate all to do with their race. Pet peeve of mine.

And yeah Canelo is Caucasian as fornicate.

I mean if you want to get technical about it. We're all the human race, and there simply are no goddamn races. We're a tribal species though.

[Syntax Error]

Blacks are getting softer. I’m seeing that in the NBA as well. Seems like nobody can take a hard foul nowadays

[danconnollyeire]

The fact you care so much about what race another person considers themselves makes you one stupid racist pudendum. Life’s too short, couldn’t give too fvcks what race another person is and it’s no concern of mine

I know the difference between race, culture and language and that doesn’t make me racist.

You know fvckall. You sound like a fvcking imbecile. Probably wanking in your mother’s bedroom, with an IQ of 10, preaching race and culture on an Internet forum made for fvcking boxing ffs, pretending you have more than two brain cells to rub together (you don’t). Now fvck off back to whatever hole you crawl out of

[tigermoth87]

Americans "all our boxers play football" excuse is embarassing.

It's like they think the rest of the world don't play other sports, or that because you're good at one sport you're good at them all lol.

[Stuarty]

Go down to Mexico and tell 'em they're all White people and that Latino or Hispanic is not a race, and let me know how that goes for ya

[Stuarty]

Americans "all our boxers play football" excuse is embarassing.

It's like they think the rest of the world don't play other sports, or that because you're good at one sport you're good at them all lol.

In Scotland all our boxers are drunks

[Enlightened-One]

This is a really old out-dated discussion, since the derogatory American term “Great White Hope” hasn’t been relevant for almost thirty years, which is due to a variety of reasons:

• Less poverty and racism in America, leading to equal opportunities in all vocations. People from a variety of demographics or social groups had more access to education and could also earn a decent living doing other things.

• The ban of the pro-ranks was lifted from Eastern European countries from around 1992, which paved the way for the likes of Yuri Arbachakov, Andrey Shkalikov, Oleg Maskiev, Kostya Tzyu, Vitali, Wladimir Klitschko, Andrew Golota, Nikolay Valuev, Louis Kaplan, Benny Bass, Vic Darchinyan, Orzubek Nazarov, Sergey Kobozev, Dimitri Kirillov, Denis Inkin, Akhmed Kotiev, Dmitry Pirog, Roman Karmazin, Artur Grigorian, Sultan Ibragimov, Vasily Jirov etc.

• American fighters were enjoying less success, since there were more boxers to compete against globally, which consequently resulted in a decline of viewership figures on US shores.

• Commercial globalisation of the sport of boxing, since huge paydays could be earned in various geographical locations (i.e. UK, Germany & Russia) rather than America being the only country that offered big fight purses.

• The TV networks being greedy and covering big fights as PPV events, which led to a decline of viewership figures and popularity of the sport in the US.

• The Klitschko’s heavyweight title reign transferred ownership of the sports’ most prestigious titles to Europe.

• The rise of the MMA within the US, specifically the UFC brand, leading to the core 18-34 male American demographic watching that sport rather than boxing.

And the list goes-on-and-on...

[p4p1]

I know the difference between race, culture and language and that doesn’t make me racist.

You know fvckall. You sound like a fvcking imbecile. Probably wanking in your mother’s bedroom, with an IQ of 10, preaching race and culture on an Internet forum made for fvcking boxing ffs, pretending you have more than two brain cells to rub together (you don’t). Now fvck off back to whatever hole you crawl out of

Biology and generics says I’m right though so........
Never preached either. You’re just a little snowflake bitch who gets upset at facts.

[danconnollyeire]

You know fvckall. You sound like a fvcking imbecile. Probably wanking in your mother’s bedroom, with an IQ of 10, preaching race and culture on an Internet forum made for fvcking boxing ffs, pretending you have more than two brain cells to rub together (you don’t). Now fvck off back to whatever hole you crawl out of

Biology and generics says I’m right though so........
Never preached either. You’re just a little snowflake bitch who gets upset at facts.

cool film yourself telling a mexican about his race and then tell me who's the snowflake, you racist mug

[p4p1]

People are stupid though. The way Latino is labelled as a race shits me to tears tbh. You’re either mixed race, European, Native American or black/African. The fact that they speak languages that evolved from Latin has fornicate all to do with their race. Pet peeve of mine.

And yeah Canelo is Caucasian as fornicate.

I mean if you want to get technical about it. We're all the human race, and there simply are no goddamn races. We're a tribal species though.

Gil, my point is and maybe this is better in the OT section rather than here is that race is different to culture and ethnicity. I can go into migration that caused groups of people to adapt/evolve over 1000s of years to their environment etc. How Columbus ‘discovering’ the America’s resulted in mixed race children etc. How Yoel Romero, Canelo and Yalitza Aparicio are all Latino. Clearly they’re not of the same race. They’re all undeniably ethnically Latino.

[p4p1]

Biology and generics says I’m right though so........
Never preached either. You’re just a little snowflake bitch who gets upset at facts.

cool film yourself telling a mexican about his race and then tell me who's the snowflake, you racist mug

Well I would expect a lot of Mexicans and other Latinos to know the difference between Race and Ethnicity. If they didn’t they could easily look it up.
https://www.iowadatacenter.org/aboutdat ... sification


Race Categories
American Indian or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.
Asian: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.
Black or African American: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as "Haitian" or "Negro" can be used in addition to "Black or African American".
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.
White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Ethnicity Categories
Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin", can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino".



Not that I have to defend myself from baseless accusations of racism but my best friend is Latin, my wife is Jamaican and some of my family members are Asian....

[danconnollyeire]

cool film yourself telling a mexican about his race and then tell me who's the snowflake, you racist mug

Well I would expect a lot of Mexicans and other Latinos to know the difference between Race and Ethnicity. If they didn’t they could easily look it up.
https://www.iowadatacenter.org/aboutdat ... sification


Race Categories
American Indian or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.
Asian: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.
Black or African American: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as "Haitian" or "Negro" can be used in addition to "Black or African American".
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.
White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Ethnicity Categories
Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin", can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino".



Not that I have to defend myself from baseless accusations of racism but my best friend is Latin, my wife is Jamaican and some of my family members are Asian....

Saw you copied and pasted something from the internet and didn't bother reading. Do let me know when you've made that video, yeah? If you had a brain cell, I'd die of loneliness

[ValMar]

cool film yourself telling a mexican about his race and then tell me who's the snowflake, you racist mug

Well I would expect a lot of Mexicans and other Latinos to know the difference between Race and Ethnicity. If they didn’t they could easily look it up.
https://www.iowadatacenter.org/aboutdat ... sification


Race Categories
American Indian or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.
Asian: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.
Black or African American: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as "Haitian" or "Negro" can be used in addition to "Black or African American".
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.
White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Ethnicity Categories
Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin", can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino".



Not that I have to defend myself from baseless accusations of racism but my best friend is Latin, my wife is Jamaican and some of my family members are Asian....

Racism is evil. Period .
BTW, at least 40% of Middle East/North Africa people would not been (on the street, in USA) considered white.

[sturm vogel]

There is no "human race" . There are human beings of difference races. A race is a gene cluster found in specific areas. No controversy here. No bullshit either.

[bigman1968]

This is a really old out-dated discussion, since the derogatory American term “Great White Hope” hasn’t been relevant for almost thirty years, which is due to a variety of reasons:

• Less poverty and racism in America, leading to equal opportunities in all vocations. People from a variety of demographics or social groups had more access to education and could also earn a decent living doing other things.

• The ban of the pro-ranks was lifted from Eastern European countries from around 1992, which paved the way for the likes of Yuri Arbachakov, Andrey Shkalikov, Oleg Maskiev, Kostya Tzyu, Vitali, Wladimir Klitschko, Andrew Golota, Nikolay Valuev, Louis Kaplan, Benny Bass, Vic Darchinyan, Orzubek Nazarov, Sergey Kobozev, Dimitri Kirillov, Denis Inkin, Akhmed Kotiev, Dmitry Pirog, Roman Karmazin, Artur Grigorian, Sultan Ibragimov, Vasily Jirov etc.

• American fighters were enjoying less success, since there were more boxers to compete against globally, which consequently resulted in a decline of viewership figures on US shores.

• Commercial globalisation of the sport of boxing, since huge paydays could be earned in various geographical locations (i.e. UK, Germany & Russia) rather than America being the only country that offered big fight purses.

• The TV networks being greedy and covering big fights as PPV events, which led to a decline of viewership figures and popularity of the sport in the US.

• The Klitschko’s heavyweight title reign transferred ownership of the sports’ most prestigious titles to Europe.

• The rise of the MMA within the US, specifically the UFC brand, leading to the core 18-34 male American demographic watching that sport rather than boxing.

And the list goes-on-and-on...

The main thing is excluding boxing from NCAA programs....very few become pro sportsmen, but thousands of poor guys benefit from free education!

[1okstcsb]

They should Have Boxing in Junior High and Senior High School and College, that would be a lot of jobs opening up for former fighters as coaches, Everyone likes to fight and/or and it would create more interest because fans will be able to follow fighters from a young age to the Pros as they do now with Football, Basketball, Baseball etc.

[p4p1]

They should Have Boxing in Junior High and Senior High School and College, that would be a lot of jobs opening up for former fighters as coaches, Everyone likes to fight and/or and it would create more interest because fans will be able to follow fighters from a young age to the Pros as they do now with Football, Basketball, Baseball etc.

I think the issue is that it could be hard convincing people it's ethical to do so based on the CTE issues in boxing. CTE isn't really a side effect of boxing because causing CTE is the goal in a round about way.
Otherwise I totally agree, it would help marketability excellently. Helping more boxers get a good education would only be a positive thing. There plenty of MMA fighters with a good college education because of their wrestling background,

[Onetimeonly]

I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

Never thought this argument held much weight. Probably none of the boxing greats could have been great at team sports and vice versa. Holyfield mostly stood on the sidelines in HS football.

But if they pursue the other sport and don't make it you end up with Washington. Probably a lot to do with hop hop too. Americans couldn't care less about boxing. It's a big commitment and you're friends don't care. Smaller kids will always come up fighting. A heavyweight doesn't have to deal with tank kind of shit.

[Blodhemn]

Never thought this argument held much weight. Probably none of the boxing greats could have been great at team sports and vice versa. Holyfield mostly stood on the sidelines in HS football.

But if they pursue the other sport and don't make it you end up with Washington. Probably a lot to do with hop hop too. Americans couldn't care less about boxing. It's a big commitment and you're friends don't care. Smaller kids will always come up fighting. A heavyweight doesn't have to deal with tank kind of poo.

Yeah, there's a lot of factors but can just boil it down to boxing being less a part of the culture. Good luck trying to reinstate that into schools where lawyers have some places too scared to even give kids recess. First kid to die from sparring would be the end of it. Can only imagine the shitty coaches around at this point.

[Onetimeonly]

But if they pursue the other sport and don't make it you end up with Washington. Probably a lot to do with hop hop too. Americans couldn't care less about boxing. It's a big commitment and you're friends don't care. Smaller kids will always come up fighting. A heavyweight doesn't have to deal with tank kind of poo.

Yeah, there's a lot of factors but can just boil it down to boxing being less a part of the culture. Good luck trying to reinstate that into schools where lawyers have some places too scared to even give kids recess. First kid to die from sparring would be the end of it. Can only imagine the shitty coaches around at this point.