Extra weight at HW debate

[Ambling Alp II]

But we are talking about an extreme difference between Fury and Marciano, almost a foot in height, 6 stone in weight and 17” in reach. Big HWs struggle to get near Fury.

My point is that smaller guys who is much faster and busier would be able to get in easier.
If you casually come in throwing one shot a t a time, you are going to have a hard time. If you come quickly throwing a lot of punches, it is a different story.
Instead of a stationary, big target, that is easy to hit, Fury would have a smaller, moving, target that is more difficult to hit.

You also now talking height, which you weren't in the original post.

[margaret thatcher]

Should light heavyweights and super middleweights be having a go at heavy then, without adding any size? Maybe it's really them with the size advantage over the big bois. Perhaps John Ryder or Bivol is the one to beat Fury.

[Duran1970]

Should light heavyweights and super middleweights be having a go at heavy then, without adding any size? Maybe it's really them with the size advantage over the big bois. Perhaps John Ryder or Bivol is the one to beat Fury.

Comparing Ryder or Bivol to Rocky Marciano ?

[margaret thatcher]

Nah, it's being said that there are advantages that come with being much smaller, so I'm wondering if that extends to the small guys around today. Perhaps they should try their hand at HW because they have some of those supposed advantages? They are much faster and can get low and throw more punches right?

[Controversial]

But we are talking about an extreme difference between Fury and Marciano, almost a foot in height, 6 stone in weight and 17” in reach. Big HWs struggle to get near Fury.

My point is that smaller guys who is much faster and busier would be able to get in easier.
If you casually come in throwing one shot a t a time, you are going to have a hard time. If you come quickly throwing a lot of punches, it is a different story.
Instead of a stationary, big target, that is easy to hit, Fury would have a smaller, moving, target that is more difficult to hit.

You also now talking height, which you weren't in the original post.

I was talking about Marciano and Fury and you replied that Marciano would get close to Fury, that’s why I mentioned Fury’s height etc

[Ambling Alp II]

I think height is usually a bigger advantage than weight.
With weight, it seems people just look at the scales, and assume that the heavier guy has an advantage of whatever the difference on the scales is. It is more complicated than that. There is an a rough ideal weight. A guying weighing 210 against a guy weighing 180 is not the same as a guy weighing 240 against a guy weighing 210. At a certain point weight becomes stops becoming an advantage and at a later point it starts becoming a disadvantage.

And the stats show us that; of course you have to look at the stats to notice it.

If you go through heavyweight history, you see that head to head, the heavier guy barely wins about half the time.
Height and reach seems to be a bigger advantage. However you have to be careful with that. You can't just assume that a taller guy knows how to use his height and reach advantages. They often don't.

[Controversial]

I think height is usually a bigger advantage than weight.
With weight, it seems people just look at the scales, and assume that the heavier guy has an advantage of whatever the difference on the scales is. It is more complicated than that. There is an a rough ideal weight. A guying weighing 210 against a guy weighing 180 is not the same as a guy weighing 240 against a guy weighing 210. At a certain point weight becomes stops becoming an advantage and at a later point it starts becoming a disadvantage.

And the stats show us that; of course you have to look at the stats to notice it.

If you go through heavyweight history, you see that head to head, the heavier guy barely wins about half the time.
Height and reach seems to be a bigger advantage. However you have to be careful with that. You can't just assume that a taller guy knows how to use his height and reach advantages. They often don't.

I agree, if someone doesn't hold a particularly big advantage elsewhere or does but doesn't have the ability to use those advantages then extra weight doesn't mean much. However Fury knows how to use his height, reach and weight. Marciano would have a very hard time getting close and if he did he was only 13 stone. His strength wouldn't be as effective against a 19 stone man as it was against guys the same size and weight as him.

[Ambling Alp II]

As for the weight, sure Fury can lean on a guy and wear him down. However, there is a remedy to prevent someone from leaning on you; throw punches. He can't lean on a guy while he is being hit.

As for Fury keeping Marciano at bay, I think Marciano would be able to get inside often enough. He had incredible endurance; he would just keep coming and coming. Fury is not going to be hold him off forever.

[Seamus]

Ever since I came on here, I've been hearing how a fit 200 lb boxer could clean out the lard asses and uncoordinated giants of the heavyweight division. But now it's 2020 and we're still waiting for Godot.

[Controversial]

As for the weight, sure Fury can lean on a guy and wear him down. However, there is a remedy to prevent someone from leaning on you; throw punches. He can't lean on a guy while he is being hit.

As for Fury keeping Marciano at bay, I think Marciano would be able to get inside often enough. He had incredible endurance; he would just keep coming and coming. Fury is not going to be hold him off forever.

He had incredible endurance but against guys mainly the same size as him or weaker, thats the difference. Marciano is my favourite HW but I just can't see him being strong or big enough to bother Fury. The physical advantages Fury would have are massive and he can move too. I know its not a 'cool' theory to have that someone like Marciano would lose to someone like Fury but Marciano struggled in a lot of fights with small guys, I just can't see him causing Fury any serious issues.

[Counter-puncher]

However, there is a remedy to prevent someone from leaning on you; throw punches. He can't lean on a guy while he is being hit.

Sure, like nobody every threw a punch and ended up getting tied up off it; like it’s impossible to trap the extended arms of a guy throwing punches; like on the inside it isn’t easy as fornicate to tie a guy up whether he’s throwing punches or not?

Sorry man that’s just silly talk, a boxer throwing punches is absolutely not some kind of clinch-proof grab-repelling machine. Arms get parried on the way to and from the target, parry leads to trap, trap leads to clinch.

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course it's not impossible. However, if a guy is throwing a lot of punches, constantly, round after round, he is going to land some.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ever since I came on here, I've been hearing how a fit 200 lb boxer could clean out the lard asses and uncoordinated giants of the heavyweight division. But now it's 2020 and we're still waiting for Godot.

Well, we have had wilder who weighed 215 or so. he was slimmer than many 200 pounders.
How did the last guy who actually way 200 or less do in a title shot?
How about the guy before that?

If size weight is so crucial, then why is the heaviest guy in the sport never the best guy?
Not now or ever.

[oogiebe]

This thread is old and tired. I remember when folks thought Mike Tyson ushered in the era of the throw back smaller HW. I'ts just a matter of Fury being the best today and happens to be a giant weighing 270 LBS. Like MIke was in the late 80's.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree.
You can be great, good, mediocre, terrible, regardless of what the scale or the tape measure says.

It is what you can do, and how well you do it that counts.

[oogiebe]

I agree.
You can be great, good, mediocre, terrible, regardless of what the scale or the tape measure says.

It is what you can do, and how well you do it that counts.

End of thread.

[Controversial]

I agree.
You can be great, good, mediocre, terrible, regardless of what the scale or the tape measure says.

It is what you can do, and how well you do it that counts.

Of course and no one is saying just being tall, heavy or both makes you a better fighter, of course it doesn't. However it matters when the much bigger guy knows how to fight too and knows how to use those physical advantages, like Fury does. The difference in size and weight between Fury and Marciano is about as big as you can get.

[Onetimeonly]

I agree.
You can be great, good, mediocre, terrible, regardless of what the scale or the tape measure says.

It is what you can do, and how well you do it that counts.

Of course and no one is saying just being tall, heavy or both makes you a better fighter, of course it doesn't. However it matters when the much bigger guy knows how to fight too and knows how to use those physical advantages, like Fury does. The difference in size and weight between Fury and Marciano is about as big as you can get.

Wilder can't fight on the inside at all. Marciano would be a big favorite against him.

[Bodyshot3]

This thread is old and tired. I remember when folks thought Mike Tyson ushered in the era of the throw back smaller HW. I'ts just a matter of Fury being the best today and happens to be a giant weighing 270 LBS. Like MIke was in the late 80's.

Feels just a tad harsh there Oogiebe……..especially when many of our history threads don't always get people posting and discussing. Let's not be too fierce please and let the conversation flow a bit, even if it seems done and dusted.

Personally I think that Fury in particular does box better and is more effective with some extra and seemingly excessive poundage...….when he has been super-trim he's often not looked so great and yet bulked-up he can still be mobile, skilful and busy but can boss and bully opponents with his bulk as well.

There are some interesting examples out there...…a seemingly finished and undeserving Bruno came in very heavy against McCall and yet boxed better than at any time in his career and seemed to exhaust McCall in the clinches.

[oogiebe]

This thread is old and tired. I remember when folks thought Mike Tyson ushered in the era of the throw back smaller HW. I'ts just a matter of Fury being the best today and happens to be a giant weighing 270 LBS. Like MIke was in the late 80's.

Feels just a tad harsh there Oogiebe……..especially when many of our history threads don't always get people posting and discussing. Let's not be too fierce please and let the conversation flow a bit, even if it seems done and dusted.

Personally I think that Fury in particular does box better and is more effective with some extra and seemingly excessive poundage...….when he has been super-trim he's often not looked so great and yet bulked-up he can still be mobile, skilful and busy but can boss and bully opponents with his bulk as well.

There are some interesting examples out there...…a seemingly finished and undeserving Bruno came in very heavy against McCall and yet boxed better than at any time in his career and seemed to exhaust McCall in the clinches.

Good post BD! Fury fighting better at the higher weight is a discussion that would be interesting. Bigger is Better is old and tired. Foreman also was a better boxer at the higher weight.

[Controversial]

Feels just a tad harsh there Oogiebe……..especially when many of our history threads don't always get people posting and discussing. Let's not be too fierce please and let the conversation flow a bit, even if it seems done and dusted.

Personally I think that Fury in particular does box better and is more effective with some extra and seemingly excessive poundage...….when he has been super-trim he's often not looked so great and yet bulked-up he can still be mobile, skilful and busy but can boss and bully opponents with his bulk as well.

There are some interesting examples out there...…a seemingly finished and undeserving Bruno came in very heavy against McCall and yet boxed better than at any time in his career and seemed to exhaust McCall in the clinches.

Good post BD! Fury fighting better at the higher weight is a discussion that would be interesting. Bigger is Better is old and tired. Foreman also was a better boxer at the higher weight.

The thread was about whether carrying extra weight at HW helps, it wasn’t meant to be a bigger is better argument to be fair

[oogiebe]

Good post BD! Fury fighting better at the higher weight is a discussion that would be interesting. Bigger is Better is old and tired. Foreman also was a better boxer at the higher weight.

The thread was about whether carrying extra weight at HW helps, it wasn’t meant to be a bigger is better argument to be fair

Yup.

[Controversial]

Foreman also was a better boxer at the higher weight.

Yes see that's what is interesting, not only older but noticeably fatter and still a force and arguably a better fighter as you say. It kind of blows the myth that being too heavy or carrying excess flab is bad, not always.

[Controversial]

I was listening to a podcast the other week and they mentioned how much weight a HW can lose in a fight, I can't say I really thought about it too much before but I guess it makes sense.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman was nowhere near the fighter when he heavier than when he was lighter. Do you really think he blows out Norton and Frazier during the time he weighed 250 plus? He needed the judges to bail him out against Axel Schulz. Struggled in several other fights as well.