When James Toney had the IBF super middleweight title he couldn't unify any belts because the other champions were all with Don King, while he was with Bob Arum. The result was he defended against uninteresting opponents like Tony Thornton and Tim Littles, while Michael Nunn (WBA), Nigel Benn (WBC) and Chris Eubank (WBO) boxed other people. Even in the middleweight division King had control, with Gerald McClellan (WBC), John David Jackson (WBA) and Chris Pyatt (WBO). The only free agent was Roy Jones, who ultimately moved up and trounced him.
Was Toney unlucky, not being able to demonstrate his skills against any other big name opponents, except for a prime Jones, due to boxing politics? Do you think he would have cleaned up at super middleweight, given the chance? His legacy was basically ruined by the King/Arum rivalry.
James Toney, unlucky?
Re: James Toney, unlucky?
It's an interesting point but not quite as black and white is it being down to Don King.
Eubank was promoted by Barry Hearn, held the lightly regarded WBO belt and was earning good money against largely moderate opposition and wanted no part of Toney. Toney had already knocked Nunn out in a major upset and King certainly wouldn't have fallen over himself to make a return as there wasn't enough money in it. I'm sure Benn would have taken the fight, but again was earning good money for himself and King's British promoter and therefore was also steered away from it.
I think at Super Middle Toney beats all of them but he wasn't the sort of guy who generated enough money for Eubank and Benn's promoters to put their cash cows at such high risk.
Eubank was promoted by Barry Hearn, held the lightly regarded WBO belt and was earning good money against largely moderate opposition and wanted no part of Toney. Toney had already knocked Nunn out in a major upset and King certainly wouldn't have fallen over himself to make a return as there wasn't enough money in it. I'm sure Benn would have taken the fight, but again was earning good money for himself and King's British promoter and therefore was also steered away from it.
I think at Super Middle Toney beats all of them but he wasn't the sort of guy who generated enough money for Eubank and Benn's promoters to put their cash cows at such high risk.
Re: James Toney, unlucky?
There was serious talk of a 4 man tourney with Nunn, Toney, Benn and Eubank all facing off to find an eventual winner.
It sort of died about two fights in.
Benn was with FW who had a co-agreement with DK, which made fights with his stable viable.
Eubank was with Hearn, who had a per-fight agreement/contract with DK, which allowed the big (in the UK at least) rematch between Benn and Eubank. DK had done his usual trickerations and forced Eubank into signing into either rematch or options WIN or LOSE. DK did not specify draw, so when their fight ended in an unpopular draw, Eubank simply (thimply) waltzed off with his title and into a lucrative SKY "world tour" only a couple of fights later.
That was Oct '93.
Nunn would close out the year with a win over Sosa then amazingly lose the title only 2 months later in a lacklustre, listless performance to unheralded and un-fancied (but fired up) DK stablemate Steve Little. Little would lose the title in his next fight to Frankie Liles and was almost forced into facing monster puncher Gerald McClellan for only 50,000 dollars in a fight he was certain to lose and get hurt doing so.
Nunn would lose a close decision to Liles and be in the title hinterlands until moving up to light heavy.
Liles had a decent run at 168 and was a decent boxer, tall with decent power and skills. He would bizarrely go on to defend his title in the UK on a FW undercard in Newcastle in an exciting, foul filled brawl with Tim Littles.
Toney, well we all know what happened. There were signs in/during/before the fight with Charles Williams(July 94) that he wasn't really making 168 too easily and he would lose both his title and his unbeaten record to Jones in his very next fight (Nov '94) and implode in dramatic fashion (who remembers him threatening his manager with a gun?). He weighed in at 184 on the day of the fight and reportedly had to lose over 40lbs to make 168 (actually 167). It showed during the fight and it led to another title hinterland and career downturn.
Benn himself readily admitted that Jones was the number one in their weight division but admitted if the money was right he was open to it. Eubank would admit to varying degrees he didn't particularly want to fight either Jones or Toney but I don't think anyone would actually question his bravery or mental fortitude, he was just sensible and a businessman who was extremely risk averse since the Watson fight.
Interestingly the evening before the Benn/Eubank rematch there was a "best of enemies" show with Jonathan Ross where they cut to a live satellite feed in Mickey Rourke's gym with Toney trash talking. Pretty sure that's all on youtube. It wasn't broadcast live but the studio feed clearly was.
It sort of died about two fights in.
Benn was with FW who had a co-agreement with DK, which made fights with his stable viable.
Eubank was with Hearn, who had a per-fight agreement/contract with DK, which allowed the big (in the UK at least) rematch between Benn and Eubank. DK had done his usual trickerations and forced Eubank into signing into either rematch or options WIN or LOSE. DK did not specify draw, so when their fight ended in an unpopular draw, Eubank simply (thimply) waltzed off with his title and into a lucrative SKY "world tour" only a couple of fights later.
That was Oct '93.
Nunn would close out the year with a win over Sosa then amazingly lose the title only 2 months later in a lacklustre, listless performance to unheralded and un-fancied (but fired up) DK stablemate Steve Little. Little would lose the title in his next fight to Frankie Liles and was almost forced into facing monster puncher Gerald McClellan for only 50,000 dollars in a fight he was certain to lose and get hurt doing so.
Nunn would lose a close decision to Liles and be in the title hinterlands until moving up to light heavy.
Liles had a decent run at 168 and was a decent boxer, tall with decent power and skills. He would bizarrely go on to defend his title in the UK on a FW undercard in Newcastle in an exciting, foul filled brawl with Tim Littles.
Toney, well we all know what happened. There were signs in/during/before the fight with Charles Williams(July 94) that he wasn't really making 168 too easily and he would lose both his title and his unbeaten record to Jones in his very next fight (Nov '94) and implode in dramatic fashion (who remembers him threatening his manager with a gun?). He weighed in at 184 on the day of the fight and reportedly had to lose over 40lbs to make 168 (actually 167). It showed during the fight and it led to another title hinterland and career downturn.
Benn himself readily admitted that Jones was the number one in their weight division but admitted if the money was right he was open to it. Eubank would admit to varying degrees he didn't particularly want to fight either Jones or Toney but I don't think anyone would actually question his bravery or mental fortitude, he was just sensible and a businessman who was extremely risk averse since the Watson fight.
Interestingly the evening before the Benn/Eubank rematch there was a "best of enemies" show with Jonathan Ross where they cut to a live satellite feed in Mickey Rourke's gym with Toney trash talking. Pretty sure that's all on youtube. It wasn't broadcast live but the studio feed clearly was.
Re: James Toney, unlucky?
That‘s right, a young slim Toney. He was always good at the trash talk.
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Lenny Cravats
- Super Middleweight
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Re: James Toney, unlucky?
This was on a Naz undercard. I remember watching it with my non-boxing fan friends (they were watching for Naz, of course - whatever people think of him, it's hard to imagine any of the little fellas catching the public like that again - Hatton was massive with the football connections and whilst he was probably a 'household' name, I don't think people were captivated in quite the same way).