The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Tony1244
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

Steel City wrote: 18 Mar 2020, 11:26
No one is arguing the effect; that's obvious. The argument is the cause. I tip my hat to UK boxing, HW and otherwise. I wish Americans were as interested.

But again, success in any sport is going to be a reflection of the % of people that do the sport.
[/quote]

100% Bullshit.

America have more current heavyweights than any other country by far!!!! Go look at at the boxrec stats. America has hundreds of current heavyweights. They just all suck. America has the quality but lacks the quality.

Plus America get everything in a plate with all their amateurs being able to turn pro, loads of Tv channels showing boxing, best gyms/facilities, best trainers, etc

If you last sentence was true then black americans should be dominating The heavyweight division. But they aren't. Because they simply are not good enough. Since boxing became a more global sport their success has been going down and down. Stop making petty excuses and just admit they aren't good enough.

Every country in the world has boxers, its a worldwide sport. Some countries/some people are good at it and some people/some countries are poor at it. I could list many examples were there is big numbers of boxers from a place but they all can't fight and get to any decent level. And I can name places were there is only a small number of boxers and they are good at it.
[/quote]

Are you one of these people who think a Povetkin or Pulev would dominate Ali because they were born later and a bit bigger? :roll:
margaret thatcher
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

As funny as that sounds, is it any stranger than imagining Mike Tyson or Joe Frazier trying to be a baller :lol:
Tony1244
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

margaret thatcher wrote: 18 Mar 2020, 14:48 As funny as that sounds, is it any stranger than imagining Mike Tyson or Joe Frazier trying to be a baller :lol:
Come on, you've got to be smarter than this. I, and others, have said over and over again that those guys and others aren't "ballers." But, they would not have been steered towards boxing if they were born later.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

Umm, I've been seeing the argument over and over that they wouldn't be boxing because they would be drawn to other sports by money instead.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

margaret thatcher wrote: 18 Mar 2020, 14:48 As funny as that sounds, is it any stranger than imagining Mike Tyson or Joe Frazier trying to be a baller :lol:
Def not basketball for those two.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

If you can't handle two concepts, there is nothing I can do about that.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

I can handle it just find, odd to see you moving away from that argument now when it's been dumped throughout the thread. A guy like Joe Frazier was from Philly, where there are still tons of boxing gyms. He started boxing himself to lose weight and wasn't pushed towards it and didn't get into it after a comparative analysis of pro sports contracts. I don't see what about the NBA or general American culture/sports suggests that he wouldn't have touched boxing in this age

Likewise, lots of tough NY street kids like Mike still get into boxing and there are plenty of places for them to do so

It takes a certain toughness and drive to be a high level boxer. Guys like this often seek out challenging, rough sports, and they can still find that in boxing today and in the big areas these guys come from , like NY, Philly, Texas, there are lots of gyms and knowledable trainers and boxing infrastructure there to support the talents.

If anything, there has been more of a shift in boxing/pro sports culture outside the US, we see much greater support and a movement of these boxers turning pro now
Last edited by margaret thatcher on 18 Mar 2020, 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

margaret thatcher wrote: 18 Mar 2020, 15:05 I can handle it just find, odd to see you moving away from that argument now when it's been dumped throughout the thread. A guy like Joe Frazier was from Philly, where there are still tons of boxing gyms. He started boxing himself to lose weight. I don't see what about the NBA or general American culture/sports suggests that he wouldn't have touched boxing in this age
Not sure what you're arguing. There will always be boxers so long as the sport is legal. Not every past HW would have been lured away from boxing for other sports. BUT...Since the '80's thousands more young americans have gone to other sports. Most as a means of getting a good education and subsequent decent careers (scholorships, etc.). Again, this is just one part of the US domination decline in the HW div. No one ever said it was THE reason, but you enjoy focusing on what you like. Glad to make you happy.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

It's obvious what I'm arguing--the point about the other pro sports suddenly hurting the US pro talent at HW. If guys like Holy, Tyson, etc would still have gone the boxing route then it's not explaining why there haven't been elite, great American HW talents in years, so ya, it's still relevant to talk about this idea that they'd be ballers.

A lot of great American HW boxers started boxing for reasons that had nothing to due with money or comparisons of sports contracts, and they started boxing when other sports already got fame, free education, loads of money, etc.... there is very little good evidence to suggest that these types would never have pursued the sport in this age. There are also still tons of gyms and opportunities to box in the US, as if they'd have trouble finding training in NY, Texas, Atlanta, Philly, etc.

There's been far greater change for fighters outside the US, where we see more fighters turning pro and getting the support to do so...look at all the contenders/champs in recent years from places that hardly ever turned guys pro
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

margaret thatcher wrote: 18 Mar 2020, 15:15 It's obvious what I'm arguing--the point about the other pro sports suddenly hurting the US pro talent at HW. If guys like Holy, Tyson, etc would still have gone the boxing route then it's not explaining why there haven't been elite, great American HW talents in years, so ya, it's still relevant to talk about this idea that they'd be ballers.

A lot of great American HW boxers started boxing for reasons that had nothing to due with money or comparisons of sports contracts, and they started boxing when other sports already got fame, free education, loads of money, etc.... there is very little good evidence to suggest that these types would never have pursued the sport in this age. There are also still tons of gyms and opportunities to box in the US, as if they'd have trouble finding training in NY, Texas, Atlanta, Philly, etc.

There's been far greater change for fighters outside the US, where we see more fighters turning pro and getting the support to do so
Your last statement is another contributing factor which has been mentioned before. That really started its incubation after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Diminishing interest in boxing in the US has many causes.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

The irony is I'm putting my country down. We, meaning the US, have become a bunch of fat, lame, video gamers, who have gotten soft. I'm actually a bit surprised we are doing as well as we are in the lower weight divisions.

....And I never said if it was the way it used to be with the great US amateur programs of the past that we'd have the best in the HW division. No one knows that. The best HW of all time could have been a German killed in WW2 or an American killed in Vietnam. Who the hell knows?

Saying America's other sports and their salaries AND (2 concepts) the decline of interest in boxing in America has no effect is every bit as silly as saying, I know if the Soviet Union had pro boxing in 1940, none of them could have beaten Joe Louis. No one knows.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Steel City »

The other sports EXCUSE has been debunked and laughed at over and over. It really is pathetic and embarassing

Every country has more sports that are popular than Boxing. Every country could make that stupid excuse. The Uk could say all their best athletes are in Premier League football and playing rugby.

And someone who plays basketball in't gonna be a fighting man lol two totally different sports
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

Steel City wrote: 19 Mar 2020, 10:15 The other sports EXCUSE has been debunked and laughed at over and over. It really is pathetic and embarassing

Every country has more sports that are popular than Boxing. Every country could make that stupid excuse. The Uk could say all their best athletes are in Premier League football and playing rugby.

And someone who plays basketball in't gonna be a fighting man lol two totally different sports
:lol: Like Wilder?
Tony1244
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

Steel City wrote: 19 Mar 2020, 10:15 The other sports EXCUSE has been debunked and laughed at over and over. It really is pathetic and embarassing

Every country has more sports that are popular than Boxing. Every country could make that stupid excuse. The Uk could say all their best athletes are in Premier League football and playing rugby.

And someone who plays basketball in't gonna be a fighting man lol two totally different sports
How much do these rugby players get paid? It's not an excuse, it's reality. A basketball player has the perfect physique and coordination for boxing. Cus D'Amato believed basketball players were generally more inclined to box than football players.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

Wow! Great assist by fleet footed midget point guard Liston, passing it to point guard midget Frazier, who used a step ladder to dunk! But wait! Point guards Tyson and Johnson and Holyfield and Dempsey are racing back up the court, Shaq is standing by the hoop ready to give a piggy back ride to point guard Tyson so he can reach the net!! :lol:


And of course in the crowd is the great Geroge Foreman, yet another who got into the sport for reaons totally unrelated to money, but of course now in fantasy world he's a star baller too! And joining him is the renowned shot blocker Larry Holmes, who is from Philly where there are gyms everywhere, but of course he would have no way to find boxing today!

And not at all like basketball has beecome vastly internationalized! Only Americans still can choose from sports other than boxing!Everywhere else the government hand picks the best big men and forces them to box :yay:
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

If you want to play this moronic nationalism card, then why were you guys so lame for over 100 years?

I ask tongue in cheek because frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass where champions are from.

Incidentally, 99% of Americans never heard of Joshua, Fury, or Wilder.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

It's not nationalism at all, it's just looking at reasons for why things are as they are now. Personally, I don't buy the given reason that it's because in fantasy land these guys would all be tiny ballers now, that's it. People keep mentioning contracts but so many of these guyss started boxing for reasons that had nothing to do with money, and major league sports have been sources of fame and riches for a long time, it's nothing new. Also, there are still loads of gyms in the US, it's hardly as if Foreman from Texas, Frazier fromPhilly, Tyson from NY couldnt' find one these days.

Other countries are doing far more to support pro fighters now, there was a ridiculous amount of lost talent outside the US in past generations, but it's gradually changed, though still not totally there yet with some of the countries that produce top amateur talent.
Last edited by margaret thatcher on 20 Mar 2020, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:04 It's not nationalism at all, it's just looking at reasons for why things are as they are now. Personally, I don't buy the given reason that it's because in fantasy land these guys would all be ballers now, that's it.

Other countries are doing far more to support pro fighters now, there was a ridiculous amount of lost talent outside the US in past generations, but it's gradually changed, though still not totally there yet with some of the countries that produce top amateur talent.
Only you said that the old greats would be ballers today. What you've posted is nothing near Tony nor my points on this topic.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

Tell me then, if they wouldn't , then what great talent have you lost out on? Why keep mentioning other sports if those sports haven't even been drawing away great HWs like those guys? It obviously must be other factors then explaining why we aren't seeing more recentequivalents of those atg heavys, yet you keep mentioning the rise of 'ball'. If those guys aren't modern ballers, then where are they?

You guys don't seem to understand the implications of your own arguments
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by oogiebe »

margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:08 Tell me then, if they wouldn't , then what great talent have you lost out on? Why keep mentioning other sports if those sports haven't even been drawing away great HWs like those guys? It obviously must be other factors then explaining why we aren't seeing more recentequivalents of those atg heavys, yet you keep mentioning the rise of 'ball'. If those guys aren't modern ballers, then where are they?

You guys don't seem to understand your own arguments
Talking about today's athlete's choosing other sports and yesteryear's HW's playing basketball are a completely different topics and frankly silly. Maybe Frazier and Tyson could've been running backs and chosen that path in order to get a proper education. Maybe ethey would have still boxed. Holy played football but he chose boxing. I'd bet he could've been a mean linebacker. Exceptions happen. Nothing is 100%. But I'd bet money that Tony and my point is 80% correct. American athletes have had more and more opportunities in other sports and as a means of attending college far more than their predecissors. Also here in the states, there are oodles of more organized basketball; football; and baseball programs for kids outside of what were one or two programs when I was a kid, namely little league; and PAL. Your constant reference to b-ball is silly. Million dollar pro sports contracts didn't happen until the late 1970's (baseball) and early 80's (football). Universaties weren't as open back then to minority athletes as they were beginning in the late 70's. Christ, the NFL wouldn't even think of using black QB's until the 80's with very few exceptions. In fact it's only the past couple of decades that miniority athletes are making inroads into the NHL. Disagree if you wish, but don't ridicule something you don't understand.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

oogiebe wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:06
margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:04 It's not nationalism at all, it's just looking at reasons for why things are as they are now. Personally, I don't buy the given reason that it's because in fantasy land these guys would all be ballers now, that's it.

Other countries are doing far more to support pro fighters now, there was a ridiculous amount of lost talent outside the US in past generations, but it's gradually changed, though still not totally there yet with some of the countries that produce top amateur talent.
Only you said that the old greats would be ballers today. What you've posted is nothing near Tony nor my points on this topic.
Thank You, Double O.

I made it abundantly clear that we wouldn't know what the situation would be like today if things were different. That's almost a Yogi Berraism.

There is a reading comprehension problem on the other side.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:04 It's not nationalism at all, it's just looking at reasons for why things are as they are now. Personally, I don't buy the given reason that it's because in fantasy land these guys would all be tiny ballers now, that's it. People keep mentioning contracts but so many of these guyss started boxing for reasons that had nothing to do with money, and major league sports have been sources of fame and riches for a long time, it's nothing new. Also, there are still loads of gyms in the US, it's hardly as if Foreman from Texas, Frazier fromPhilly, Tyson from NY couldnt' find one these days.

Other countries are doing far more to support pro fighters now, there was a ridiculous amount of lost talent outside the US in past generations, but it's gradually changed, though still not totally there yet with some of the countries that produce top amateur talent.
Now that I pointed out that from 1940-1980 you guys produced Tommy Farr and Joe Bugner (born in Hungary), all of a sudden now it's not nationalism. :lol:

I don't want to break a blood vessel in your brain, but I don't care who wins a Fury-Wilder fight. I'm in it for the entertainment. I'd trade a Wilder victory for finding a dollar bill on the ground everyday and twice on Sunday.
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by Tony1244 »

oogiebe wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:06
margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:04 It's not nationalism at all, it's just looking at reasons for why things are as they are now. Personally, I don't buy the given reason that it's because in fantasy land these guys would all be ballers now, that's it.

Other countries are doing far more to support pro fighters now, there was a ridiculous amount of lost talent outside the US in past generations, but it's gradually changed, though still not totally there yet with some of the countries that produce top amateur talent.
Only you said that the old greats would be ballers today. What you've posted is nothing near Tony nor my points on this topic.
I'm waiting for them to say the reason they couldn't find someone to beat Ali or Liston was that there weren't enough boxing gyms and interest in Europe at that time. :lol: :lol:
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

oogiebe wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:22
margaret thatcher wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:08 Tell me then, if they wouldn't , then what great talent have you lost out on? Why keep mentioning other sports if those sports haven't even been drawing away great HWs like those guys? It obviously must be other factors then explaining why we aren't seeing more recentequivalents of those atg heavys, yet you keep mentioning the rise of 'ball'. If those guys aren't modern ballers, then where are they?

You guys don't seem to understand your own arguments
Talking about today's athlete's choosing other sports and yesteryear's HW's playing basketball are a completely different topics and frankly silly. Maybe Frazier and Tyson could've been running backs and chosen that path in order to get a proper education. Maybe ethey would have still boxed. Holy played football but he chose boxing. I'd bet he could've been a mean linebacker. Exceptions happen. Nothing is 100%. But I'd bet money that Tony and my point is 80% correct. American athletes have had more and more opportunities in other sports and as a means of attending college far more than their predecissors. Also here in the states, there are oodles of more organized basketball; football; and baseball programs for kids outside of what were one or two programs when I was a kid, namely little league; and PAL. Your constant reference to b-ball is silly. Million dollar pro sports contracts didn't happen until the late 1970's (baseball) and early 80's (football). Universaties weren't as open back then to minority athletes as they were beginning in the late 70's. Christ, the NFL wouldn't even think of using black QB's until the 80's with very few exceptions. In fact it's only the past couple of decades that miniority athletes are making inroads into the NHL. Disagree if you wish, but don't ridicule something you don't understand.
It's not a completely different issue at all. There are certain great HWs like the ones I mention. People talk about why we don't see any more of these American greats, and guys like you and Tony mention 'ball'. But if those guys like that wouldn't have been ballers anyway, it misses the point and can't explain why we aren't seeing guys like this still emerging. Of course you say no one is talking about guys like that being ballers, but then post this huge block of text about precisely that , fantasy world where they are doing other sports instead of boxing :TU:
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Re: The end of the Great White Hope: a historical not racist perspective

Post by margaret thatcher »

Tony1244 wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:50
oogiebe wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 16:06

Only you said that the old greats would be ballers today. What you've posted is nothing near Tony nor my points on this topic.
I'm waiting for them to say the reason they couldn't find someone to beat Ali or Liston was that there weren't enough boxing gyms and interest in Europe at that time. :lol: :lol:

Lolol 'they', as if I find the success of the wack ass 60s Euro HWs a matter of personal pride :lol: F@cking hell mate, those Euro wimps of the 60s would have or did all get their sh!t battered in by superior American beasts (who of course would now be star point guards LOL_

Considering how quick you are to think everyone's arguments must be natioanislm , and considering you came up with the infamous 'Americas hate' simply for arguing that Gerald Wash should be behind Helenius and Kownacki (lololol), you seen very eager to impute national and even pan-national bias to people and seem to think it's what dictates every opinion, if you really enjoy seeing that type of thing a forum like stormfront would have far more of this overly broad thinking :TU:
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