Heavyweights : Tyson Fury vs. Sonnie Liston

[Ambling Alp II]

He had over 90 fights and fought way past his prime. Of course he got knocked down more than a guy who had a third of his fights and is still in his prime. Ezzard Charles had similar numbers as Williams. Guess he had no defense either.

Anyway, answer the question. Who besides Liston, knocked down Williams when Williams was in his prime ?

[margaret thatcher]

Here's his record, he is knocked down plenty at every stage of his career , there are so many opponents to name, do the work for yourself

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9382


Look at the paper, watch the fights, take whatever approach--it's clear that Willy was an easy to hit, crude banger. How he even comes to your mind when elusivity is mentioned is beyond strange, unless you were trying to think of guys who are nothing close to it and are simply getting your wires crossed. He had pretty much no defensive skills to fall back on whatever the stage of his career. You've even tried to excuse him by saying he was easy to hit because he was on offense--but then he wasn't elusive at all was he and that's just your reasoning as to why. So what is it?

I thank you for the laughs

[oogiebe]

Lol, you said Williams was more elusive, then use Fury getting dropped as part of your argument. Um, talk about only looking at one side of it when big slick Clev was down 25 times, hurt every other round, and could barely avoid a punch lol. But that's just alp for you, criticize one guy for something but excuse it for the other guy, who always happens to be an older fighter

Williams was dropped plenty at every stage of his career. It's baffling why you chose him as a guy more elusive than Fury, he was a caveman and wasn't even close to the most elusive Liston fought. But he fought in the right time, and that's really what matters for 'ambling alp'

Well, he did include Zora Folley.

[margaret thatcher]

Others he could've included too, going for Williams is

It's like hearing that Ruslan Provodinkov being singled out for his elusivity

[Ambling Alp II]

Here's his record, he is knocked down plenty at every stage of his career , there are so many opponents to name, do the work for yourself

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9382


Look at the paper, watch the fights, take whatever approach--it's clear that Willy was an easy to hit, crude banger. How he even comes to your mind when elusivity is mentioned is beyond strange, unless you were trying to think of guys who are nothing close to it and are simply getting your wires crossed. He had pretty much no defensive skills to fall back on whatever the stage of his career. You've even tried to excuse him by saying he was easy to hit because he was on offense--but then he wasn't elusive at all was he and that's just your reasoning as to why. So what is it?

I thank you for the laughs

Oh great, you have discovered the database. I guess you now know all there is about Williams.
I don't think that Williams was great defensively. Just that Liston would have caught Fury as much, which was my point.

As for my question that you keep ducking:
That would be zero times that Williams was knocked down in his prime except for against Sonny Liston. Remember him, along with Fury the guy we were talking about?

[margaret thatcher]

I am not ducking your question at all my child, as I've said the names are there for you to see with nothing hidden--he was getting put on his ass at every point in his boxing life. You said Williams was more elusive than Fury and used Fury getting dropped a couple times as part of your argument, too bad for you if people caught an called you out on how ridiculous that

Like I said, you have even conceded that Williams wasnt' actually elusive at all, and that he was easy to hit due to his style, and then you conjured up some fantasy scenario where he is trying to box and move like Fury. You seem to not keep track of your own argument lol

It's not just on paper bruh, I mentioned all the film out there too. By any standard---the 25 kds and dozens of times hurt, the footage which shows a guy who can't avoid a punch---mentioning slick willy is just laughable, but perhaps not unexpected from you, and it just proves what others have said about your historical fetishism

[oogiebe]

I am not ducking your question at all my child, as I've said the names are there for you to see with nothing hidden--he was getting put on his ass at every point in his boxing life. You said Williams was more elusive than Fury and used Fury getting dropped a couple times as part of your argument, too bad for you if people caught an called you out on how ridiculous that

Like I said, you have even conceded that Williams wasnt' actually elusive at all, and that he was easy to hit due to his style, and then you conjured up some fantasy scenario where he is trying to box and move like Fury. You seem to not keep track of your own argument lol

It's not just on paper bruh, I mentioned all the film out there too. By any standard---the 25 kds and dozens of times hurt, the footage which shows a guy who can't avoid a punch---mentioning slick willy is just laughable, but perhaps not unexpected from you, and it just proves what others have said about your historical fetishism

Satterfield knocked williams down twice in 1954.
Sylvester Jones knocked Williams down twice in 1953.
I'll stop there.

[Ambling Alp II]

Williams took the Satterfield fight literally at the last minute. As in, he was in the crowd and was asked to sub. I don't even think his trainer was there. That doesn't count as being his prime. (Arguably had not reached his prime by then anyway.)
He was not in his prime yet when he fought Jones in 1953. He had been a pro for less than two years.

So we are back to Sonny Liston being the only person to do it to Williams in his prime. In fact, in about a 10-year period of time, he was stopped only twice (the only fights he lost during this time), and was nocked down in two fights. Both times against …..drumroll please..... Sonny Liston.

And since this thread is about Sonny Liston, it suggests that Liston was pretty good. Even better than the legendary Tyson Fury.

[margaret thatcher]

Weeeaak excuses bruh, we could pull them out for Fury too but leave it to alp to just play the side of the oldie. Had been out of the ring for a while and had crappy tune ups going into Wilder, etc. Fury could stick his chin out with his hands down for his opponent to hit, and he still would be more elusive than the king of getting dropped on his ass , 25+ slick willy. Your reason for Clev being impossible not to hit was his style of course, but then there you go, that's just the fighter he was, in other words 0 defense. Funny to imagine your fantasy lad where he'd be trying to be slick and dancing around

I see you didn't give Cleveland the wisp a defensive rating

[oogiebe]

Williams took the Satterfield fight literally at the last minute. As in, he was in the crowd and was asked to sub. I don't even think his trainer was there. That doesn't count as being his prime. (Arguably had not reached his prime by then anyway.)
He was not in his prime yet when he fought Jones in 1953. He had been a pro for less than two years.

So we are back to Sonny Liston being the only person to do it to Williams in his prime. In fact, in about a 10-year period of time, he was stopped only twice (the only fights he lost during this time), and was nocked down in two fights. Both times against …..drumroll please..... Sonny Liston.

And since this thread is about Sonny Liston, it suggests that Liston was pretty good. Even better than the legendary Tyson Fury.

Big Cat: So we don't count those?

Liston: I agree.

[Ambling Alp II]

Come on Oogiebe. You can't seriously think Williams was in his prime for these fights.

[margaret thatcher]

[oogiebe]

Come on Oogiebe. You can't seriously think Williams was in his prime for these fights.

Never said he was or wasn't. Just responding to your post saying he wasn't knocked down until Liston. That's all.

[DrDuke]

Stop arguing with Alp. He's utterly biased. You're wasting your time. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse

[Ambling Alp II]

Come on Oogiebe. You can't seriously think Williams was in his prime for these fights.

Never said he was or wasn't. Just responding to your post saying he wasn't knocked down until Liston. That's all.

Well, I think you misunderstood me earlier. I was asking about Williams' prime.

I asked him "Since you have followed Williams career quite closely, who outside of Liston, knocked down Williams when he was in his prime? "
After he ducked the question, I again asked "besides Liston, knocked down Williams when Williams was in his prime ?"

[oogiebe]

Never said he was or wasn't. Just responding to your post saying he wasn't knocked down until Liston. That's all.

Well, I think you misunderstood me earlier. I was asking about Williams' prime.

I asked him "Since you have followed Williams career quite closely, who outside of Liston, knocked down Williams when he was in his prime? "
After he ducked the question, I again asked "besides Liston, knocked down Williams when Williams was in his prime ?"

Ok, so when exactly was Williams in his prime?

[margaret thatcher]

Stop arguing with Alp. He's utterly biased. You're wasting your time. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse

I never expected to hear about 'Slick' Cleveland Williams even from him, but Alp goes that extra mile doesn't he

Though he's still failed to give Clevy a defensive rating over in the history section lol

[Ambling Alp II]

About the same as Fury. Like I said originally. Never said he was slick. My point was regarding Fury. There was no reason to go on and on about Williams who I had mentioned in passing. No reason to start two other threads about him. The thread is about Fury and Liston.

[Ambling Alp II]

Well, I think you misunderstood me earlier. I was asking about Williams' prime.

I asked him "Since you have followed Williams career quite closely, who outside of Liston, knocked down Williams when he was in his prime? "
After he ducked the question, I again asked "besides Liston, knocked down Williams when Williams was in his prime ?"

Ok, so when exactly was Williams in his prime?

I would say from about 1957-1963. He was shot in 1964 and suffered serious injuries. He fought for a long time after that. Most of his knockdowns came then. I don't think anyone with much knowledge of boxing at all, would think these knockdowns mean much at all.
Even if you from 1956 all the way until the Ali fight in 1966, he was only knocked down and stopped in two different fights. That's 39 fights in a period of almost 10 years.
Both times, it happened against Sonny Liston.

[margaret thatcher]

About the same as Fury. Like I said originally. Never said he was slick. My point was regarding Fury. There was no reason to go on and on about Williams who I had mentioned in passing. No reason to start two other threads about him. The thread is about Fury and Liston.

Lol, you said he was MORE elusive than Fury, then as part of your reason ragged on Fury for kds while not even mentioning 'MR 25', who was a crude face blocker who had no business being mentioned at all. Of course you just reserve the excuses for him too even though they can be pulled out for anyone lol. We go on about it because it's a laughable joke from a historic extremist who ranks more with birthdate than anything else

thanks for the sh!ts and giggles 'ambling alp', my favorite part was the bizarro land scenario where Williams is trying to dancee around the ring

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry that you don't understand the concept of a fighter's prime. You know like after they have been literally shot. Or when they are old. Or had a lot of fights. Things like that. All of which happened to Williams.

Any interest in discussing Sonny Liston? Any at all?

[margaret thatcher]

I do, it didn't matter what stage Clev was at, he hit the canvas plenty, and we can use these selective excuses just as freely on Fury and pretty much anyone else too. Lol imagine Sweet Pea Clev up on his toes dancing around the ring

I dunno, you keep talking with us about Slick Willy, so you seem to enjoy it

[Ambling Alp II]

Sonny Liston: ever heard of him?

[Onetimeonly]

Liston would smash fury, wlad and wilder. Likely all inside 3 rounds.

[Cojimar 1946]

Most of the top guys Liston beat wouldn't even be heavyweights by today's standards.

Isn't it reasonable to question whether his power and chin would translate given the massive size gap and the fact that even the small heavyweights of today would be considered big back in Liston's day.

For example Rocky Marciano was a devastating puncher in his day but many people don't think his power would translate into much against top 90s heavies like Holyfield, Lewis, Tua, etc.