Is Fury the best heavyweight of all time?

[margaret thatcher]

How many times does Fury need to beat Wilder for people to be happy?

Are these the same people that don't want to see Joshua v Whyte again because "we've seen this already"

Ya, Fury came back after a total bender and no proper tune ups, and still got a draw. Then they both had time to adjust to each other, improve their game , etc....and it was a total drubbing.

Though I see people, I think including you, talking about him going off the rails again and losing focus with time out due to this thing...if he does do that maybe it can be more like the first fight again? That's the type of thinking that might keep people asking for Fury to beeat him again to prove some longevity/consistency or something...

Fury-AJ is the one now though, now that we've gotten Fury-Wilder x2

[littlepug]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4.Foreman
5. Lewis
6. Johnson
7. Holyfield
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Tyson

Thanks! What makes you think that in terms of boxing career, Fury is nothing close to a guy like Jack Johnson? What if he KO'd AJ?

There no other heavyweight champ that’s been in the unique position that Johnson was which is why he’s in my top 10, from what we can tell he was ahead of his era skill wise, yes there is question if him not giving other black fighters a shot but what marks him out as great is the insurmountable pressure he had to perform under with practically the whole of white society against him, probably every crowd he ever fought in front of was willing his defeat but he performed as if there was no pressure at all, I’d say he was probably the most mentally strong champ at that weight ever. As for Fury he’s done well, I’d never knock him it’s just that there’s at least 10 men with bigger achievements in front of him.

[margaret thatcher]

Ah , understand. Personally I factor social views very very little when rankings HWs, but I see what you mean. I think it is more part of their story and 'interesting man ranking' than how their career rates though tbh. I think including racist periods by society is even more confusing to factor in and even more era specific than things like size or changes in training, technology, etc. And how does one even begin to rank 'impact of social views of 1910' vs 'impressiveness of Fury beating Wilder'? . It's just incommensurable imo

You could argue those black guys who never got title shots vs Johnson were more greatly burdened by it too, hence we instead saw JJ winning title fights vs the likes of 160-170 pound white guys , or ones inactive 6 years

[Onamastus]

You could argue those black guys who never got title shots vs Johnson were more greatly burdened by it too, hence we instead saw JJ winning title fights vs the likes of 160-170 pound white guys , or ones inactive 6 years

Jack Johnson already beat Sam Langford, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, Denver Ed et al before he won the title, in some cases innumerable times. Which black guy specifically should he have defended against? Did he need to beat McVey a fourth time? Jeannette a ninth time? Do you have any names?

[margaret thatcher]

Pretty much any of those tougher challengers than the likes of Ketchel, a retired Jeff, or even the then holder, little Tom Burns lol. Some of them had certainly matured more and deserved a shot at the hw title far more than many challengers. Not even vs Johnson necessarily

[Onamastus]

Pretty much any of those tougher challengers than the likes of Ketchel, a retired Jeff, or even the then holder, little Tom Burns lol. Some of them had certainly matured more and deserved a shot at the hw title far more than many challengers. Not even vs Johnson necessarily

He didn't defend against Tommy Burns, he won the title from him. Do you have any names he should have fought instead?

[margaret thatcher]

Pretty much any of those tougher challengers than the likes of Ketchel, a retired Jeff, or even the then holder, little Tom Burns lol. Some of them had certainly matured more and deserved a shot at the hw title far more than many challengers. Not even vs Johnson necessarily

He didn't defend against Tommy Burns, he won the title from him. Do you have any names he should have fought instead?

I know, I said 'then holder', do you do reading bruh?

He could've fought those names, but man his era was weak arse all-around, maybe that's part of why he had to pick on guys the size of welters today.

[Onamastus]

He didn't defend against Tommy Burns, he won the title from him. Do you have any names he should have fought instead?

I know, I said 'then holder', do you do reading bruh?

He could've fought those names, but man his era was weak arse all-around, maybe that's part of why he had to pick on guys the size of welters today.

But he wouldn't have been champion if he fought someone else instead of Burns...

Which welterweights did he fight?

[margaret thatcher]

Sure bruh, just said that some of those guys who never got shots would've been tougher than the then champ Burns

Anyone he fought in the 160s or below you're getting into modern ww size. Burns was like 5'7 160s, that's like Keith Thurman or Danny Garcia lol. His first fight after the title win was a guy weighing 162 on the day. It's a common occurance. Poor JJ, his era was a bit of a freak show.

It's not just the size either, then we get the bigger guys like Jeff fighting for the big one after like 6 years out!

[oogiebe]

Sure bruh, just said that some of those guys who never got shots would've been tougher than the then champ Burns

Anyone he fought in the 160s or below you're getting into modern ww size. Burns was like 5'7 160s, that's like Keith Thurman or Danny Garcia lol. His first fight after the title win was a guy weighing 162 on the day. It's a common occurance. Poor JJ, his era was a bit of a freak show.

It's not just the size either, then we get the bigger guys like Jeff fighting for the big one after like 6 years out!

Now I'm curious. Who should he had fought that he hadn't before?

[margaret thatcher]

I said many of those black guys who never got shots would've been tougher challenges than the guy he won the title from and several of his challengers. Some of those black guys had certainly advanced too from when he fought them--some of them were like teenagers or close to it with little experience when he beat them. I never was saying there was one particular guy he hadn't fought before that he was ducking or anything like that. Fact is, even if he beat them, it was still unfortunate for them that so few of the top black fighters didn't get tittle shots back then, while far lesser whitebois did.

Either way, that's not really the issue as I see it. You can fight everyone, but if your era is weak as arse and included HW champs the size of Danny Garcia it means very little.

If Fury beats AJ then he's beat the best men of his era---so does that make him one of the goats, riight up there with Ali etc?

[oogiebe]

I said many of those black guys who never got shots would've been tougher challenges than the guy he won the title from and several of his challengers. Some of those black guys had certainly advanced too from when he fought them--some of them were like teenagers or close to it with little experience when he beat them. I never was saying there was one particular guy he hadn't fought before that he was ducking or anything like that.

Either way, that's not really the issue as I see it. You can fight everyone, but if your era is weak as arse and included HW champs the size of Danny Garcia it means very little.

If Fury beats AJ then he's beat the best men of his era---so does that make him one of the goats, riight up there with Ali etc?

I'm sorry. which 'black' guys. Names. I fail to recall a strong list of black fighters from that time that JJ didn't fight. I'm not up on that time period.

[margaret thatcher]

We aren't talking about black guys he never fought bruh, follow along .There are some of the black names above, which he beat (also took loss against) in non world title fights

Oh sorry, 'black''

[oogiebe]

We aren't talking about black guys he never fought bruh, follow along .There are some of the black names above, which he beat (also took loss against) in non world title fights

Oh sorry, 'black''

You said it in your post. i'm just asking you to elaborate. I'm following along fine.

[oogiebe]

I said many of those black guys who never got shots would've been tougher challenges than the guy he won the title from and several of his challengers. Some of those black guys had certainly advanced too from when he fought them--some of them were like teenagers or close to it with little experience when he beat them. I never was saying there was one particular guy he hadn't fought before that he was ducking or anything like that. Fact is, even if he beat them, it was still unfortunate for them that so few of the top black fighters didn't get tittle shots back then, while far lesser whitebois did.

Either way, that's not really the issue as I see it. You can fight everyone, but if your era is weak as arse and included HW champs the size of Danny Garcia it means very little.

If Fury beats AJ then he's beat the best men of his era---so does that make him one of the goats, riight up there with Ali etc?

Hmmm...so who were they?

[margaret thatcher]

Where do I say he never fought them? I said they didn't get title shots.

There are several named above. Sam McVea, Joe Jeanette, hell even prob tiny little Sam L (who put on some pounds and finally made the 170s). But consider for example that a guy like Sam McVea first fought JJ at 18 years old--the hw equivalent of still being a little semen, about half the age of Deontay Wilder. A lot of these black guys had matured and would've been tougher fights by the time JJ was champ, and I think certainly tougher than many of his challengers and also the champ he won the title from.

If the colour line was tough on anyone in terms of denied opportunities, I don't think it was Johnson as much as it was those others and I think his title reign wouldv've been of higher calibre if he'd defended vs more of these black guys.

[oogiebe]

Where do I say he never fought them? I said they didn't get title shots.

There are several named above. Sam McVea, Joe Jeanette, hell even prob tiny little Sam L. But consider for example that a guy like Sam McVea first fought JJ at 18 years old. A lot of these black guys had matured and would've been tougher fights by the time JJ was champ, and I think certainly tougher than many of his challengers and also the champ he won the title from. If the colour line was tough on anyone, I don't think it was Johnson as much as it was those others and I think his title reign wouldv've been of higher calibre if he'd defended vs more of these black guys.

I wonder if he didn't defend vs them because the paying public (who the promoters were concerned with) didn't want to see those fights. Harry Wills is the guy I would have like to have seen JJ fight, btw. Timing was a bit off i guess.

[margaret thatcher]

Maybe, maybe they suffered from their 'unforgivable blackness' more than he did in that regard. He himself was still quite the big attraction in that day, but white opponents were more appealing to the public/promoters--in fact it could be said in a way he was the protected A side champ of his day, being matched with less risky, but more marketable opponents. I think these white bois for the most part were underwhelming opponents though

[Onamastus]

I said many of those black guys who never got shots would've been tougher challenges than the guy he won the title from and several of his challengers. Some of those black guys had certainly advanced too from when he fought them--some of them were like teenagers or close to it with little experience when he beat them. I never was saying there was one particular guy he hadn't fought before that he was ducking or anything like that. Fact is, even if he beat them, it was still unfortunate for them that so few of the top black fighters didn't get tittle shots back then, while far lesser whitebois did.

Either way, that's not really the issue as I see it. You can fight everyone, but if your era is weak as arse and included HW champs the size of Danny Garcia it means very little.

If Fury beats AJ then he's beat the best men of his era---so does that make him one of the goats, riight up there with Ali etc?

Let’s clear a few things up here. Tommy Burns being heavyweight champion defines the era politically, not competitively.

Burns was defeating second-rate challengers, Johnson was beating all the dangerous black contenders, over and over again (the guys beneath the Tommy Burns entry on his Boxrec record which you located and then skimmed upwards from). You obviously didn’t know this until a few posts ago.

I give Burns credit for routinely knocking out challengers bigger than him, and having the guts to defend against Johnson. You think he’s “arse weak”. Good for you.

I’m trying to get my head around the idea of Danny Garcia being as big as Burns. Do you mean in terms of height or reach? Do you realise there’s welterweights with greater height and reach than Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier and David Tua? Or perhaps you think Garcia working down to 147 and then going to up 168 the next day equals Burns working down to 168? (But needing to amputate a leg to get down to Danny Garcia’s 147)

Complaining that Johnson didn’t defend against blacks shows a complete ignorance of the era. One, he already beat them all, ad nauseam. Two, those fights would have been bombs and not made Johnson any money. Ketchel and Jeffries were money spinners. Do you think JJ could tour the reel of Johnson/Jeannette 10 and fill theatres? You can also complain Lennox should have fought a young dangerous contender instead of Tyson. It’s called prize fighting. 

[ewenhay]

Correct.

An understanding of the political environment as well as the sporting environment at the time is essential when discussing Johnson's career.

[margaret thatcher]

chirp chirp, darts in and out of hiding again

Where does this notion come from that I'm saying he was running scurred of these black guys or anything like that? I didn't at all and I'm not even the guy who first brought up the black guys not getting shots.. I was responding to someone's comment about them and simply saying that I think a lot of them would've been tougher than the guys he did face as challengers and the champ he beat for the belt. Is there even disagreement there? It is clear some of these fighters matured greatly as well, like Sam McVea no longer being the 18 or very young man Johnson had picked on before. Oh, so other guys were more marketable and that was a factor in why those fights happened instead? Great, I noted that already too but you probably failed to read that or understand it

Little Tom was 5'7 and weighed in the 160s, if you follow boxing as it is today as well, you should know that's about welterweight size. Those guys train themselves down too and take extreme and dangerous measures to deyhydrate and cut their weight so they can make the limit the day ahead but then enter the ring significantly bigger. Where the hell you been man? Were you born in the 1800s too and have yet to learn this? Funny enough Jack of course fought a slightly bigger guy who actually was a middleweight champ just right before and then weighed 156 right after LOL

Not blaming him for his era being a total freakshow, whatever the reasons for it, and I'm sorry to JJ's lovers if I have hurt their feelings and subsequently their abilities to read. And btw reading is pretty much the bulk of what either of us are doing about these guys, unless you happen to be as old as some of your lack of info suggests and had a first hand view

[ewenhay]

That's like saying Ruiz should be a super middleweight.

Big difference between a guy who is weight draining compared to a guy who isn't.

[margaret thatcher]

That's like saying Ruiz should be a super middleweight.

Big difference between a guy who is weight draining compared to a guy who isn't.

Agree, the guy who is weight draining like pros do today is far below his natural weight when he weighs in the day ahead. The guy who isn't, like the guys in JJ's times who didn't have these modern weight draining reigments or day before weigh ins, and at HW there was no actual lower limit to make.

[ewenhay]

Yeah except at heavyweight the weigh in is practically meaningless. Guys can fight at whatever weight they are comfortable with.

Remember when Chris Byrd weight drained to get down to light heavyweight? He had nothing in the tank on fight night

[margaret thatcher]

Of course, there is even less reason to drain, yet we still used to get these guys in hw fights despite weighing 150s-160s-170s

Whereas modern welterweights drain like hell, weigh in the day before, and have a limit to make, hence their 'official' weight ends up being far lower usually than what they actually weigh in the ring and are naturally