Was/Is Wilder's career essentially a sham?

[thunderking500]

his reign, title run whatever you call it. He was a protected fighter, his resume is one of the worst if not the worst from any title holder in the HW division in a long time.

he only fought 5 top 10 guys... Stiverne first time, Old ass Ortiz twice and Fury twice. (actually don't think Fury was even ranked for the first fight) and Ortiz was essentially schooling him in both fights until he got tired. and of course got schooled by Fury, arguably twice.The only elite fighter he has ever fought

Remember that the first Fury fight was a cherry pick, Wilder knew Fury had 3 years ring rust coming from depression, drug addiction, 400lbs and looked like shit in his two comeback fights. allegedly had to literally call/convince Shelly Finkel that Fury was "done" and coming for one last pay day. His career seems like it can easily be described as manufactured

[margaret thatcher]

He's not a sham, but for 10+ defenses, 40+ knockouts, there is little depth of quality wins. Stiv and Breazeale may well be in his top 3 opponents beaten. Beating Ort was good though. His career has been more quantity than quality, but still been a top 3 HW for several years now and he did also get a draw first time vs Fury

He surpassed my expectations from when he was coming up with so many awful opponents

[jas80s]

I think Wilder is a classic example of a fighter who represents the age in which he fought. He was a highly marketable fighter, so he was carefully maneuvered to maximize his earning potential. It's going to be hard for a fighter to put together a truly remarkable ledger when one fight can set you up for life. The temptation to try and get to that fight without any in the ring setbacks is going to be pretty powerful.

I guess he is a sham depending on what ones expectations of his level were. He did OK, not great, but not a total sham either. I still think his power makes him one of the 3-5 best HW's of his time, and I still believe he is a threat to beat any other fighter in the division, that's not terrible.

[thunderking500]

I think Wilder is a classic example of a fighter who represents the age in which he fought. He was a highly marketable fighter, so he was carefully maneuvered to maximize his earning potential. It's going to be hard for a fighter to put together a truly remarkable ledger when one fight can set you up for life. The temptation to try and get to that fight without any in the ring setbacks is going to be pretty powerful.

I guess he is a sham depending on what ones expectations of his level were. He did OK, not great, but not a total sham either. I still think his power makes him one of the 3-5 best HW's of his time, and I still believe he is a threat to beat any other fighter in the division, that's not terrible.

but i think the blueprint is there now. You have to pressure him like Tyson did, have him fight on his backfoot where he can't set up and generate power. I think someone like a fit Andy Ruiz would be a stylistic nightmare for Deontay

[Enlightened-One]

I’m going to refrain from expressing an opinion on the matter for the time being, but here are some facts to consider…

Deontay Wilder:

Pros:
• An Olympic bronze medallist
• Possessed an amateur record of 30-5
• Competed in in twelve world heavyweight title fights (losing only one of them, but made ten successful defences)
• Achieved the twelfth longest (combined) world heavyweight championship reign
• Excluding The RING & Lineal titles, only four men have performed more successful/consecutive world heavyweight championship defences during their title reigns (i.e. Tommy Burns = 13; Wladimir Klitschko = 18; Larry Holmes = 19; & Joe Louis = 26), with Wilder’s tally equalling that of Muhammad Ali
• Five of his bouts were against former world champions (Tyson Fury [twice], Bermane Stiverne [twice] & Siarhei Liakhovich)
• Defeated five unbeaten fighters
• Seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition, as per The RING ratings (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Luis Ortiz [twice], Tyson Fury [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• If Wilder retired today, he’d overtake Vitali Klitschko, in possessing the highest knockout percentage of any former world heavyweight champion, due to winning 93% of his bouts by KO)

Cons:
• Wilder has only ever beaten three top-ten world-rated heavyweights (Bermane Stiverne, Luis Ortiz & Dominic Breazeale)
• Apart from Tyson Fury and Johann Duhaupas, every single one of his defences of the WBC world championship came against fellow Al Haymon stablemates (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Eric Molina, Artur Szpilka, Chris Arreola, Gerald Washington, Luis Ortiz [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• Has only ever beaten two top-five world-rated opponents (Bermane Stiverne [1st fight = 3rd] and Luis Ortiz [1st fight = 5th])
• Only ever performed two mandatory defences of his WBC title during his five years, one month & five-day reign (i.e. the Stiverne rematch and Dominic Breazeale, with both of these guys being fellow Al Haymon stablemates)
• Despite being the world heavyweight champion for more than five years, he’s never enjoyed a prolonged spell of being regarded as the “main man” of that division (i.e. the likes of Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury have usually held that moniker over the same timeframe)
• During his last seven outings, Wilder probably hasn’t won a single round where he failed to score a knockdown (this is more of a personal opinion rather than being an irrefutable fact, but regardless, it won't be far removed from universally-regarded reality)

[Paci]

No. He got the goods, but not enough good names on his resumé that is all. Do hope he gets somebody with a name after the 3rd Fury fight.
And yeah, he is one of the top dogs since he can more or less beat anyone in the top 5. His skillset is unrated, cause he always go for the K.O among other things. And losing rounds is something more about setting the other guy up then anything else. That was I saw in the second fight with Ortiz.
Also, fighting Ortiz and now Fury back to back is kudos.

The best resumé right now is something that AJ can claim however, still thou the nr.2.

[Ruthless-RKO]

He's probably got one of the best Highlight reels.

[Thomastearns]

I think Wilder is a classic example of a fighter who represents the age in which he fought. He was a highly marketable fighter, so he was carefully maneuvered to maximize his earning potential. It's going to be hard for a fighter to put together a truly remarkable ledger when one fight can set you up for life. The temptation to try and get to that fight without any in the ring setbacks is going to be pretty powerful.

I guess he is a sham depending on what ones expectations of his level were. He did OK, not great, but not a total sham either. I still think his power makes him one of the 3-5 best HW's of his time, and I still believe he is a threat to beat any other fighter in the division, that's not terrible.

Good post! No one would argue that Deontay Wilder has not been very carefully guided through his career - despite the one glaring $$ mistake ie the failure to make the AJ fight.

So whilst it's been generally good for Wilder and good for his backers - its not been necessarily good for the fans. He could and probably should have fought Joshua, Parker, Whyte, Ruiz etc.

Any of these fights could have been classics, but all alas were deemed too big a gamble for his many backers. Today's promoters are odds players and extremely hesitant to attempt any Ali/Tyson-like trajectory through their division. Unlike Angelo Dundee or Cus D'Amato they prefer instead to attempt to carefully tiptoe their charges through what they deem is the 'safest' route to megabucks.

Some of them are prepared to use any means possible to assist the safest passage.

Deontay so far has been willing to listen carefully to his backers but he needs to remember that he employs them and not the other way round.

There's still time for Deontay Wilder to put it right but he needs to start work fast. He can make a great start by flattening Fury in their rematch and then all the doors will re-open.

[RonnyJ]

you guys all make no sense.

before fury wilder II you guys had wilder as 1 or 2 in the hw division and clearly better than joshua, now all of the sudden wilders career is a shame.

[Steel City]

He's definitely a manufactured product, who was protected by the WBC.

However Luis Ortiz is a solid top 10 fighter and Wilder knocked him out twice. So you can't call him a fraud, but for his record and his quite long reign - he's not what they made him out to be.

[Finkel]

Let's not pretend there weren't people questioning Wilder's credentials before the Fury loss. For me and I'm sure many other, Fury 2 was to be his defining fight.
There are way too many asterixes next to Wilder's credible results.

Stiverne 1 is a solid win, but let's face it he was never a killer)
Stiverne 2 * (innactive, should never have been mandatory)
Ortiz 1 * (thin resume, Ring doctor interference)
Breazeale * (Should never have been mandatory)
Fury 1 * (cherry pick, heavily disputed score cards, very controversial draw)
Ortiz 2 * (too old to last the rounds, looked bad in prior fights and yet schooled him until the KO, the 9 count)

Fury 2 = the emperor potentially has no clothes

Wilder needs a win against one of his peers, preferably a puncher...
Fury who is feather fisted put him down repeatedly.
Ortiz who is apparently some killer, battered him pillar to post in the first fight and couldn't get a single knock down.
So is Fury heavy fisted or is Ortiz more hype than substance himself?

Though I will end by saying that even going 10 title defenses is still impressive considering there is always room for an upset at heavyweight. But some of the scorecards in those 10 defenses certainly raised eyebrows on more than one occasion. So uncle Al always had some insurance had Wilder ever needed it. Which is what we saw in Fury 1...

[ChanceMiller]

Wilder is an embarrassment to the sport. He's entertaining but only because of that right hand, other than that, his career has been consisted of lies, contradictions and gifts. He's been protected his whole career and the moment he faces someone with a pulse he gets fucked up.

[H8Usernames]

Wilder is going to dominate Fury worse in the third fight than Fury dominated Wilder in the second.

[Ezzard]

Wilder had one of the best right hands in history. Took a hell of a beating and was complaining when stopped him on his feet.

His KO's of Ortiz were exceptional. I thought he lost both fights to Fury. But in the first he found a punch at the end that nearly turned it around for him.

he was protected for a while but then loads of prospects are.

He is a quality HW who might win the lottery with his right hand in almost any fight.

[jas80s]

I think Wilder is a classic example of a fighter who represents the age in which he fought. He was a highly marketable fighter, so he was carefully maneuvered to maximize his earning potential. It's going to be hard for a fighter to put together a truly remarkable ledger when one fight can set you up for life. The temptation to try and get to that fight without any in the ring setbacks is going to be pretty powerful.

I guess he is a sham depending on what ones expectations of his level were. He did OK, not great, but not a total sham either. I still think his power makes him one of the 3-5 best HW's of his time, and I still believe he is a threat to beat any other fighter in the division, that's not terrible.

but i think the blueprint is there now. You have to pressure him like Tyson did, have him fight on his backfoot where he can't set up and generate power. I think someone like a fit Andy Ruiz would be a stylistic nightmare for Deontay

You could be absolutely right. Obviously, to what degree he is remembered as a "sham" will also depend quite a bit on what he does with the remaining fights of his career. If he comes back and wins some big fights, or conversely get KO'd a few times that will clearly have a telling impact on his legacy in the ring.

[jas80s]

I think Wilder is a classic example of a fighter who represents the age in which he fought. He was a highly marketable fighter, so he was carefully maneuvered to maximize his earning potential. It's going to be hard for a fighter to put together a truly remarkable ledger when one fight can set you up for life. The temptation to try and get to that fight without any in the ring setbacks is going to be pretty powerful.

I guess he is a sham depending on what ones expectations of his level were. He did OK, not great, but not a total sham either. I still think his power makes him one of the 3-5 best HW's of his time, and I still believe he is a threat to beat any other fighter in the division, that's not terrible.

Good post! No one would argue that Deontay Wilder has not been very carefully guided through his career - despite the one glaring $$ mistake ie the failure to make the AJ fight.

So whilst it's been generally good for Wilder and good for his backers - its not been necessarily good for the fans. He could and probably should have fought Joshua, Parker, Whyte, Ruiz etc.

Any of these fights could have been classics, but all alas were deemed too big a gamble for his many backers. Today's promoters are odds players and extremely hesitant to attempt any Ali/Tyson-like trajectory through their division. Unlike Angelo Dundee or Cus D'Amato they prefer instead to attempt to carefully tiptoe their charges through what they deem is the 'safest' route to megabucks.

Some of them are prepared to use any means possible to assist the safest passage.

Deontay so far has been willing to listen carefully to his backers but he needs to remember that he employs them and not the other way round.

There's still time for Deontay Wilder to put it right but he needs to start work fast. He can make a great start by flattening Fury in their rematch and then all the doors will re-open.

Part of me wants to say that it's a mistake to go right after Fury again, but you have to respect the fact that he wants a tough fight. I can't help but think as fans we should appreciate when fighters do that, or are allowed to do that.

[thunderking500]

I’m going to refrain from expressing an opinion on the matter for the time being, but here are some facts to consider…

Deontay Wilder:

Pros:
• An Olympic bronze medallist
• Possessed an amateur record of 30-5
• Competed in in twelve world heavyweight title fights (losing only one of them, but made ten successful defences)
• Achieved the twelfth longest (combined) world heavyweight championship reign
• Excluding The RING & Lineal titles, only four men have performed more successful/consecutive world heavyweight championship defences during their title reigns (i.e. Tommy Burns = 13; Wladimir Klitschko = 18; Larry Holmes = 19; & Joe Louis = 26), with Wilder’s tally equalling that of Muhammad Ali
• Five of his bouts were against former world champions (Tyson Fury [twice], Bermane Stiverne [twice] & Siarhei Liakhovich)
• Defeated five unbeaten fighters
• Seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition, as per The RING ratings (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Luis Ortiz [twice], Tyson Fury [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• If Wilder retired today, he’d overtake Vitali Klitschko, in possessing the highest knockout percentage of any former world heavyweight champion, due to winning 93% of his bouts by KO)

Cons:
• Wilder has only ever beaten three top-ten world-rated heavyweights (Bermane Stiverne, Luis Ortiz & Dominic Breazeale)
• Apart from Tyson Fury and Johann Duhaupas, every single one of his defences of the WBC world championship came against fellow Al Haymon stablemates (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Eric Molina, Artur Szpilka, Chris Arreola, Gerald Washington, Luis Ortiz [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• Has only ever beaten two top-five world-rated opponents (Bermane Stiverne [1st fight = 3rd] and Luis Ortiz [1st fight = 5th])
• Only ever performed two mandatory defences of his WBC title during his five years, one month & five-day reign (i.e. the Stiverne rematch and Dominic Breazeale, with both of these guys being fellow Al Haymon stablemates)
• Despite being the world heavyweight champion for more than five years, he’s never enjoyed a prolonged spell of being regarded as the “main man” of that division (i.e. the likes of Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury have usually held that moniker over the same timeframe)
• During his last seven outings, Wilder probably hasn’t won a single round where he failed to score a knockdown (this is more of a personal opinion rather than being an irrefutable fact, but regardless, it won't be far removed from universally-regarded reality)

incorrect

Stiverne second fight and Brezeale were not rated in the top 10 at the time Wilder fought them

[margaret thatcher]

you guys all make no sense.

before fury wilder II you guys had wilder as 1 or 2 in the hw division and clearly better than joshua, now all of the sudden wilders career is a shame.

Did you actually read what 'all' people wrote? I don't think so!

I don't think he's a sham. He's a good fighter, been top 3-5 for a good while now. Great power,very athletic, can take much more of a beating than I thought he'd be able to.

But also short on skill for the high level (I really don't buy this nonsense that he's losing rounds out of some intelligent, laudable 'patience) and with a thin resume for a guy with so many title fights and wins. His top 3 opponents beaten are Ortiz, Stiv, and maybe Breazeale. That is not much in the scheme of things. Stiv and Breazeale are really no better than a lot of the opponents people used to bitch about getting title shots when Wlad fighting, the fat pretty average ones.

His career isn't over either, he could get some good results still, or he could lose every time from now on by KO, well see

[snake33]

Wilder is a one trick pony. But what a huge trick it is.
He can take literally anybody out with one punch including
Fury on the right day at the right moment.
He will never be invincible as he claimed to be and he
could be mentally broken at this point. But he was and
always will be a freak of nature puncher and will probably
make some more noise before he rides off into the sunset.
That said I wish he'd never say "Bomb Squad" again.

[keirw]

Sham is harsh, but he did take a very long time to take on real challengers.

I appreciate that he was very raw at the start, but he wasn't much better in his most recent fights.

I don't mind prospect's taking an easy route, but he seemed to be treated as a prospect by his management for a long time after he won the title.

I know AJ took a couple easy touches after winning his first belt (both against guys who Wilder has also fought), but he then went on to fight Klitschko, Parker and Povetkin shortly after and went straight in to the Ruiz rematch and showed a different string to his bow in the manner he won.

Wilder still has time to prove his doubters wrong (me included), but he needs to accept the defeat and change his whole mindset and adjust his style if he is ever going to be a major player again.

He needs to go straight into the Fury rematch and win, he would gain nothing from a few wins over no hopers.

[Steel City]

Wilder is going to dominate Fury worse in the third fight than Fury dominated Wilder in the second.

Good luck with that prediction!

[margaret thatcher]

Maybe 3rd time is finally the charm for Deontay to beat him

[Enlightened-One]

I’m going to refrain from expressing an opinion on the matter for the time being, but here are some facts to consider…

Deontay Wilder:

Pros:
• An Olympic bronze medallist
• Possessed an amateur record of 30-5
• Competed in in twelve world heavyweight title fights (losing only one of them, but made ten successful defences)
• Achieved the twelfth longest (combined) world heavyweight championship reign
• Excluding The RING & Lineal titles, only four men have performed more successful/consecutive world heavyweight championship defences during their title reigns (i.e. Tommy Burns = 13; Wladimir Klitschko = 18; Larry Holmes = 19; & Joe Louis = 26), with Wilder’s tally equalling that of Muhammad Ali
• Five of his bouts were against former world champions (Tyson Fury [twice], Bermane Stiverne [twice] & Siarhei Liakhovich)
• Defeated five unbeaten fighters
• Seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition, as per The RING ratings (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Luis Ortiz [twice], Tyson Fury [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• If Wilder retired today, he’d overtake Vitali Klitschko, in possessing the highest knockout percentage of any former world heavyweight champion, due to winning 93% of his bouts by KO)

Cons:
• Wilder has only ever beaten three top-ten world-rated heavyweights (Bermane Stiverne, Luis Ortiz & Dominic Breazeale)
• Apart from Tyson Fury and Johann Duhaupas, every single one of his defences of the WBC world championship came against fellow Al Haymon stablemates (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Eric Molina, Artur Szpilka, Chris Arreola, Gerald Washington, Luis Ortiz [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• Has only ever beaten two top-five world-rated opponents (Bermane Stiverne [1st fight = 3rd] and Luis Ortiz [1st fight = 5th])
• Only ever performed two mandatory defences of his WBC title during his five years, one month & five-day reign (i.e. the Stiverne rematch and Dominic Breazeale, with both of these guys being fellow Al Haymon stablemates)
• Despite being the world heavyweight champion for more than five years, he’s never enjoyed a prolonged spell of being regarded as the “main man” of that division (i.e. the likes of Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury have usually held that moniker over the same timeframe)
• During his last seven outings, Wilder probably hasn’t won a single round where he failed to score a knockdown (this is more of a personal opinion rather than being an irrefutable fact, but regardless, it won't be far removed from universally-regarded reality)

incorrect

Stiverne second fight and Brezeale were not rated in the top 10 at the time Wilder fought them

Based on my notes from The RING website at the time of those bouts, which I’ve posted numerous times to this forum over the years:

• Bermane Stiverne I (3rd)
• Bermane Stiverne II (7th)
• Luis Ortiz I (5th)
• Tyson Fury I (10th)
• Dominic Breazeale (7th)
• Luis Ortiz II (6th)
• Tyson Fury II (1st)

Unfortunately, 'Way Back Machine' no longer has The RING’s ratings for the relevant dates archived.

[margaret thatcher]

That #7 is some generous ranking for Berry. He hadn't fought in 2 years going into the rematch and his last fight was a kd -taking by all accounts unimpressive win over Rossy. I think The Ring used to kick contenders out after like a year of inactivity, did that get changed?

[Enlightened-One]

That #7 is some generous ranking for Berry. He hadn't fought in 2 years going into the rematch and his last fight was a kd -taking by all accounts unimpressive win over Rossy. I think The Ring used to kick contenders out after like a year of inactivity, did that get changed?

Did you ever follow Andre Ward’s ratings or Tyson Fury’s?