DazBoxingFan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 12:47
So tevin farmer is number 2 in the world, yet he lost to joe diaz who’s now number 7. How can you beat a fighter and be ranked below him? It has no logic
Not a fight makes a boxer, but good continuous results over a time period. Let Diaz confirm his good result and we will see.
To be fair, this ranking is somewhat bizarre, since neither has fought since.
Have you done a check for truly awful circumstances? Any chance a boxer who beat another boxer twice in a row in their most recent bouts, but is still ranked beneath them? Things like that?
computerrank wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 14:01
Not a fight makes a boxer, but good continuous results over a time period. Let Diaz confirm his good result and we will see.
To be fair, this ranking is somewhat bizarre, since neither has fought since.
Have you done a check for truly awful circumstances? Any chance a boxer who beat another boxer twice in a row in their most recent bouts, but is still ranked beneath them? Things like that?
Would love to query on things like that.
When a boxer defeats another cleary twice, he might be in lead - not by rule, but in effect. I will statistically look into this ...
To be fair, this ranking is somewhat bizarre, since neither has fought since.
Have you done a check for truly awful circumstances? Any chance a boxer who beat another boxer twice in a row in their most recent bouts, but is still ranked beneath them? Things like that?
Would love to query on things like that.
When a boxer defeats another cleary twice, he might be in lead - not by rule, but in effect. I will statistically look into this ...
Maybe it shouldn't be a rule.. but I do not think it should ever happen. In my opinion. If it does, I think it clearly suggests a tweak should be made.
A few days ago I thought boxrec ratings were about right and well done. I don’t know why the sudden change or bizarre ranking differences now. What opted you to change again your way of ranking?
Farmer was only a miniscule favourite for that fight and loads of ppl including me picked Diaz. Diaz had some solid results before, like beating Rojas, stopping Cancio, and then a pretty large amounts over guys who were fringe contenders at the time. Farmer himself really had not beaten a clear world class fighter (though of course I guess it depends what boxrec rated them !).
Imo, to keep the loser ranked ahead immediatly after the fight, with no other results, should require some massive gap between them prior to that. Tbh, even then, like I would rarely if ever rank the loser ahead, it would prob me more like if their was an obviously unjust result or obviously fluke thing like a guy dominating but then blowing his ankle
Last edited by margaret thatcher on 03 Apr 2020, 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 15:32
Farmer was only a miniscule favourite for that fight and loads of ppl including me picked Diaz. Diaz had some solid recents before, like beating Rojas, stopping Cancio, etc. This wasn't some huge gap AJ vs Ruiz style upset
Totally agree. Take that weight division domestically for example in England. Anthony cacace beat Sam Bowen and is ranked lower than him, and how is Alex Dilmaghani suddenly gone from 4 to 8 under the likes of Archie sharp and zelfa Barrett who both have only beaten 2-3 opponents with winning records. Very confusing
Now here's an interesting one on the head to head topic!
#15 Charles Martin
who lost to
#16 Adam Kownacki
who lost to
#17 Robert Helenius
Martin ahead of the other two I'd prob agree with atm, I think that at least is easily defendable...his loss to Kow was close and a couple years ago, and he is coming off a decent win (over a guy who beat Helenius) whereas Kow got KO'd last fight. Though Helly should not still be behind Kow after a stoppage like that.....I think more respect should be given to an emphatic stoppage that occured in their last fights just a month ago.
Anyway, I know it's easy to cherry pick certain ratings, but I do think it should be much harder for guys to still be ahead of someone who just last fights beat them head to head
computerrank- I'm not trying to foment a revolt here (okay, maybe just slightly), but there seems to be complete unanimity among at least those who care enough to speak up on it that these ratings, at a minimum, aren't what we are looking for when we come here. I don't even think it's a matter of tweaking flaws....I think it's a matter of this new system not even really trying to measure what the members here expect or want to be measured. That is to say, I think we all pretty much want and expect them to measure a fighter's standing based on some variation of his accomplishment level, his resume, and/or what he's proven (good and bad). I know there's still an aspect of that baked in, but it's pretty clearly taken a back seat to an effort to be more reliably predictive of the future. That may be a goal worth striving for as a side project and/or a feature to be clicked on, but (and somebody speak up if I'm wrong) I think we pretty much all agree that it's a bad approach for the one and only signature ratings system the site features, particularly considering many of us look to the rankings to one extent or another as gospel, and in some cases rely on them to be roughly that.
If this unanimity is anywhere near as real as it appears from early returns, I hope you will consider returning to the system that we all liked, more or less. It's your site, obviously, but I guess I just don't think there can be much gained by approximately disaffecting virtually all of your patrons that have an opinion on the subject in any direction. As a wise man once said, "if it ain't broke, don't break it."
this is the most inaccurate and controversial rating release that I have encountered on a boxrek ((((... it seems that a hacker hacked a boxreck and systematically hurt (((...
JCS wrote: ↑02 Apr 2020, 22:10
Look at Tyson's rating take a dump in fights before losing to Buster Douglas...
Of course it has a great prediction rate...
So if a fighter's rating goes down based on what is going to happen...and the system makes predictions based on a fighter's rating...
...are its predictive results for a given bout partly based on what happens in that (future) bout?
Or is its predictive rate based only on past fights? (like any fair prediction system) ?
marcianofan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 16:29
computerrank- I'm not trying to foment a revolt here (okay, maybe just slightly), but there seems to be complete unanimity among at least those who care enough to speak up on it that these ratings, at a minimum, aren't what we are looking for when we come here. I don't even think it's a matter of tweaking flaws....I think it's a matter of this new system not even really trying to measure what the members here expect or want to be measured. That is to say, I think we all pretty much want and expect them to measure a fighter's standing based on some variation of his accomplishment level, his resume, and/or what he's proven (good and bad). I know there's still an aspect of that baked in, but it's pretty clearly taken a back seat to an effort to be more reliably predictive of the future. That may be a goal worth striving for as a side project and/or a feature to be clicked on, but (and somebody speak up if I'm wrong) I think we pretty much all agree that it's a bad approach for the one and only signature ratings system the site features, particularly considering many of us look to the rankings to one extent or another as gospel, and in some cases rely on them to be roughly that.
If this unanimity is anywhere near as real as it appears from early returns, I hope you will consider returning to the system that we all liked, more or less. It's your site, obviously, but I guess I just don't think there can be much gained by approximately disaffecting virtually all of your patrons that have an opinion on the subject in any direction. As a wise man once said, "if it ain't broke, don't break it."
Agree totally. The ratings were well done before but right now they’re a shambles. They should go back to how they were. I appreciate your need for always trying to perfect the system but to totally U-turn it isn’t the way surely. The old system was much better only a few days ago
Compared to the new all-time rating and current rating, it is perfect. Now a bunch of bugs that can be seen in almost every piece of rating you look at !!!
First of all thank you the answer. If we follow the new rankings version system Waniks rankings also not the best. Now the positions: Veron 104, Wanik 101., Mohlongo 74. Wanik undefetead long time ago. If he lost some positions because he had got only one match at the last year, ok, we understand. But the new system show us: Wanik much worster boxer than two weeks ago. It is too much! He lost 40 place at world rankings and 5 place at the german. He was second at Germany, he was on the top, now he is an avrage boxer. Do you think it is ok? We would like a fair position for him. Example this Swiss boxer has got much better position than Wanik and he won only by SD against Veron!! https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/785627
I don’t think so, Waniks position is fair now. My opinion if you show for the boxing world or the public some of your boxer from your page can going down day after day is not serious.
Perutech wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 10:43
Hello, I am the manager/BoxRec changed to a new ratings version yesterday. These ratings more reward continuous recent good results, more than single good results. Wanik Awdijan's last best opponent was Mateo Damian Veron and he dropped in the ratings, because he only had a single good result against Lolenga Mock too. by Wanik Awdijan. He got very bad rankings about the new system. He was much better at the world and german rankings too. I would like to get an info How can happen that? Example his opponent from the past Mohlongo has got much better rankings. Wanik was second at the german rankings now he is 7th. He was 61. at the world, now 101. We are so sad about that! Can you help us about that? Thank you very much!!! https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/631859
All the best!
BoxRec changed to a new ratings version yesterday. These ratings more reward continuous recent good results, more than single good results. Wanik Awdijan's last best opponent was Mateo Damian Veron and he dropped in the ratings, because he only had a single good result against Lolenga Mock too.
Last edited by Perutech on 04 Apr 2020, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
Perutech wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 03:12
... Do you think it is ok? We would like a fair position for him. Example this Swiss boxer has got much better position than Wanik and he won only by SD against Veron!! https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/785627
I don’t think so, Waniks position is fair now. My opinion if you show for the boxing world or the public some of your boxer from your page can going down day after day is not serious.
Best Regards,
Thank you!
Swiss boxer Vukshinaj defeated Veron before Veron lost to Wanik.
Perutech wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 03:12
... Do you think it is ok? We would like a fair position for him. Example this Swiss boxer has got much better position than Wanik and he won only by SD against Veron!! https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/785627
I don’t think so, Waniks position is fair now. My opinion if you show for the boxing world or the public some of your boxer from your page can going down day after day is not serious.
Best Regards,
Thank you!
Swiss boxer Vukshinaj defeated Veron before Veron lost to Wanik.
With respect sir I think you should return to the previous ranking system. You have done a lot of great things I just think your ranking system was so much better a week ago as do many
'But we always said, there is no Boxrec preference for a specific system'
I think its time to practice what you preach. Obdurately supporting a system which has seemed to invite unanimous ridicule and criticism would seem to run contrary to this approach.
The previous rating system, in my opinion, was the most accurate, sensible and reasoned methodology boxrec has ever implemented.
jerd16 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 12:12
'But we always said, there is no Boxrec preference for a specific system'
I think its time to practice what you preach. Obdurately supporting a system which has seemed to invite unanimous ridicule and criticism would seem to run contrary to this approach.
The previous rating system, in my opinion, was the most accurate, sensible and reasoned methodology boxrec has ever implemented.
I will try a version, that lets a winner above a loser for 1 year. Let's see ...
There defo should be something to prevent these cases like Farmer-Diaz/Kownacki-Helenius where a guy can score a clear win yet then without the boxers have any other fights still be below the guy he beat. It just is a weird thing to see and it's only in computerized rankings I see it. As I said earlier it should pretty much never happen when there are no fights that have happened after the head to head yet. A head to head result is really the pinnacle of comparing 2 boxers via a fight, I know there is more to an overall career, but for that moment in time where it is the latest to go by there should be more respect for it
just my view, as it is these situations that always jump out most for me. as far as the active boxers, fury/wilder's p4p rankings is the other
DazBoxingFan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2020, 12:47
So tevin farmer is number 2 in the world, yet he lost to joe diaz who’s now number 7. How can you beat a fighter and be ranked below him? It has no logic
Not a fight makes a boxer, but good continuous results over a time period. Let Diaz confirm his good result and we will see.
That is the worst reasoning I've ever heard. When you beat a man, you've proven you're the better fighter and should be ranked above him rightly. That defeats the whole point of boxing if you can't surpass a guy who has a longer resumé than you even if you beat him.
jerd16 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 12:12
'But we always said, there is no Boxrec preference for a specific system'
I think its time to practice what you preach. Obdurately supporting a system which has seemed to invite unanimous ridicule and criticism would seem to run contrary to this approach.
The previous rating system, in my opinion, was the most accurate, sensible and reasoned methodology boxrec has ever implemented.
I will try a version, that lets a winner above a loser for 1 year. Let's see ...
I agree, the previous system was the most accurate. I don’t know the sense in changing something that no one really complained about, yet this one everyone is. Why not just change it back? It’s almost dictator like lol
jerd16 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 12:12
'But we always said, there is no Boxrec preference for a specific system'
I think its time to practice what you preach. Obdurately supporting a system which has seemed to invite unanimous ridicule and criticism would seem to run contrary to this approach.
The previous rating system, in my opinion, was the most accurate, sensible and reasoned methodology boxrec has ever implemented.
I will try a version, that lets a winner above a loser for 1 year. Let's see ...
No, not for a year, how about not even for a month? Change it back, this system is both inaccurate and clunky, no one gets it. It makes little sense and should be scrapped.
Yes but Vukshinaj not undefeated so many years. This position for Wanik Awdijan is unacceptable, because this position show everybody he is much worse boxer than some days ago...
Perutech wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 03:12
... Do you think it is ok? We would like a fair position for him. Example this Swiss boxer has got much better position than Wanik and he won only by SD against Veron!! https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/785627
I don’t think so, Waniks position is fair now. My opinion if you show for the boxing world or the public some of your boxer from your page can going down day after day is not serious.
Best Regards,
Thank you!
Swiss boxer Vukshinaj defeated Veron before Veron lost to Wanik.
