ALL TIME HEAVYWEIGHT RATINGS/RANKINGS

[Onetimeonly]

Tubbs and seldon are decent wins, but heavyweight isn't a very deep division. Going to 20 ain't easy. 3 really good results against evander and no negative results in your career is pretty good. Better than anyone since Lennox by a good margin.

His performances vs Golota weren't exactly positive. At his best he was terrific.

So you hold the golota wins, when he was clearly shot, against him? That's harsh.

[oogiebe]

out of shape doesn't mean we discount those two fights. Bowe's short prime was due to a lack of heart and discipline. Two things that go into making an ATG.

Bowe lack of heart? You can't have seen the Golota fights!

Discipline? Better take Tyson out of the top 100

that's how I see it. If you're referring to Mike Tyson in your comment, you def didn't see him take his beating properly from Lewis.

[Onamastus]

Bowe lack of heart? You can't have seen the Golota fights!

Discipline? Better take Tyson out of the top 100

that's how I see it. If you're referring to Mike Tyson in your comment, you def didn't see him take his beating properly from Lewis.

He trained for Lewis on drugs and whores

[oogiebe]

that's how I see it. If you're referring to Mike Tyson in your comment, you def didn't see him take his beating properly from Lewis.

He trained for Lewis on drugs and whores

Thanks for your insight.

[Onamastus]

He trained for Lewis on drugs and whores

Thanks for your insight.

Well you said discipline is part of being an ATG and yet Tyson is in all these lists and was obviously an ill disciplined character. I'm just refuting your point.

[oogiebe]

Thanks for your insight.

Well you said discipline is part of being an ATG and yet Tyson is in all these lists and was obviously an ill disciplined character. I'm just refuting your point.

Tyson was very physically disciplined for a good four or five years of his career. I never said Character was a componant of an ATG. (See SRR; Jake LaMotta; Carlos Monzon, etc). Thanks replying.

[Onamastus]

Well you said discipline is part of being an ATG and yet Tyson is in all these lists and was obviously an ill disciplined character. I'm just refuting your point.

Tyson was very physically disciplined for a good four or five years of his career. I never said Character was a componant of an ATG. (See SRR; Jake LaMotta; Carlos Monzon, etc). Thanks replying.

My use of "character" there was obviously interchangeable with "person." You said discipline was part of being an ATG. Tyson didn't have discipline any longer than did Bowe. By 88 his life and his camps were chaos.

Ultimately Holyfield is a lock for any sane person's top 10 so Bowe beating him twice, and losing another by a C hair, means a great deal. Everyone is allowed a kooky opinion. Yours is that Bowe doesn't factor in a list like this.

[oogiebe]

Tyson was very physically disciplined for a good four or five years of his career. I never said Character was a componant of an ATG. (See SRR; Jake LaMotta; Carlos Monzon, etc). Thanks replying.

My use of "character" there was obviously interchangeable with "person." You said discipline was part of being an ATG. Tyson didn't have discipline any longer than did Bowe. By 88 his life and his camps were chaos.

Ultimately Holyfield is a lock for any sane person's top 10 so Bowe beating him twice, and losing another by a C hair, means a great deal. Everyone is allowed a kooky opinion. Yours is that Bowe doesn't factor in a list like this.

Holyfield is a lock. Bowe is not.

[oogiebe]

His performances vs Golota weren't exactly positive. At his best he was terrific.

So you hold the golota wins, when he was clearly shot, against him? That's harsh.

Maybe. I think Bowe is in the discussion but not in my top 10 or 15.

[Onetimeonly]

So you hold the golota wins, when he was clearly shot, against him? That's harsh.

Maybe. I think Bowe is in the discussion but not in my top 10 or 15.

Definitely, he clearly isn't top 10. You responded to someone saying he's top 20 and now you're citing him for looking poor while eating 200 low blows and already exhibiting serious dementia.

[oogiebe]

Maybe. I think Bowe is in the discussion but not in my top 10 or 15.

Definitely, he clearly isn't top 10. You responded to someone saying he's top 20 and now you're citing him for looking poor while eating 200 low blows and already exhibiting serious dementia.

LOL! He did get his package bashed. I don't remember him being that bad in the head when he fought Golota. I'll take your word. I've been very consistant with my view of Bowe. Credit for the trilogy. Didn't do it long enough for top 10/15 consideration. Had all the tools. Wasted it.

[Onetimeonly]

Definitely, he clearly isn't top 10. You responded to someone saying he's top 20 and now you're citing him for looking poor while eating 200 low blows and already exhibiting serious dementia.

LOL! He did get his package bashed. I don't remember him being that bad in the head when he fought Golota. I'll take your word. I've been very consistant with my view of Bowe. Credit for the trilogy. Didn't do it long enough for top 10/15 consideration. Had all the tools. Wasted it.

[oogiebe]

LOL! He did get his package bashed. I don't remember him being that bad in the head when he fought Golota. I'll take your word. I've been very consistant with my view of Bowe. Credit for the trilogy. Didn't do it long enough for top 10/15 consideration. Had all the tools. Wasted it.

Guess you're drinking again.

[Ambling Alp II]

Guess I just wanted to respond to various comments;
Bowe did beat undefeated fighters like Donld, Hide, nd Gonzalez. However, this doesn't mean much. Gonzalez, to put i charitably, was not very good. Hide was better, but still not exactly a huge win. Donald hd some boxing ability, but was inexperienced at the time Bowe beat him.

Often guys with undefeated records really aren't that good. They didn't fight other promising fighters and experienced veterans on their way up. They often don't fight other contenders until they get a WBS title shot. This has gotton worse since Bowe's career.
However, if you look at Bowe himself and his career before getting a title shot, you can tell that he was tested. There are people that you have actually heard of. Tony Tubbs, Tyrell Biggs, Pinklon Thomas, Bruce Seldon etc.
Beating these guys before he reached his best does two things:
1. It shows that he can beat good fighters even before he was at this best.
2. It made him better fighter. When you fighter better competition, it forces you give your best. He was better fighter for it.

We should also not rate someone on what we think they should have done. yes, it would have been great of he had a couple more years at the top. However, we should rate him on what he did do.

I don't think anyone is saying he was as good as Ali. Top 10 seems a stretch. Top 15, maybe, maybe not. However, he has to be in the top 20. Look at the other guys' victims list. Look at who they lost. Compare that to Bowe. There simply aren't 20 better than him.

[Onamastus]

Good post by Alp. As regards to Donald, Hide and Gonzalez, these were good fights going in. It showed some daring, fighting the unknown. Donald believe it or not was well reviewed for his win over fellow undefeated Jeremy Williams; no one was quite sure what Hide was, but he was undefeated with a near 100% KO ratio; Boxing Monthly actually picked Gonzalez to win. Lots of fighters feared the big Cuban and ducked him. Both Donald and Hide were in their 20s, and being compared with Ali, for different reasons.

I'm not claiming these men were brilliant, but they were undefeated and could have been anything, but still Bowe happily fought them and destroyed them. It's more ambitious match making than, say, Ed Mahone, Obed sullivan and a 40 year old Razor Ruddock.

[Onamastus]

Anyway, any support for Jersey Joe Walcott? Had Louis, Charles and Marciano on the floor, beat two of them, came within a C hair of beating the other. One of the smartest fighters ever, kayo power in both hands, could pull off the patented sideways shuffle even while fighting the most dangerous opponents. Bonus wins over Bivins, Elmer Ray, Maxim et al. What's he not doing on that list?

[Ambling Alp II]

Walcott is a borderline case. You mentioned a lot of positives, which counts for a lot.
Working against him is all those losses earlier in his career when he didn't have a decent trainer. A lot depends how much you factor that in.
Also the loss to Layne, and the pathetic showing in the Marciano rematch didn't help.

Watching him on film, he looks like he belongs.

[Onamastus]

Walcott is a borderline case. You mentioned a lot of positives, which counts for a lot.
Working against him is all those losses earlier in his career when he didn't have a decent trainer. A lot depends how much you factor that in.
Also the loss to Layne, and the pathetic showing in the Marciano rematch didn't help.

Watching him on film, he looks like he belongs.

Walcott's father died forcing him to turn pro and support the family (and take bad fights). And what was he, 16? He had a tough life and had to learn boxing the hard way. I'd write off the Marciano rematch. He was 38 by then. How many heavyweight champs have had a good performance against an elite boxer at that age or older? One? Two? It doesn't affect Louis x2, Charles x4 and the first sterling Rock fight.

[margaret thatcher]

So where would you rank Jersey Joe Ona my man?

[Onamastus]

So where would you rank Jersey Joe Ona my man?

There's got to be space for him somewhere in the 15-20 range. In my opinion.

[oogiebe]

So where would you rank Jersey Joe Ona my man?

There's got to be space for him somewhere in the 15-20 range. In my opinion.

I'll admit he's one of the most underrated. I read somewhere in his early days he was fighting for like $25.00 per fight. Always wondered what his career would've been like if he was in another era with proper management throughout. As Alp posted, he looks great on film.

[dr_devious]

My top 20:-
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Mike Tyson
12. James J Jeffries
13. Rocky Marciano
14. Riddick Bowe
15. Harry Wills
16. Vlad Klitschko
17. Jersey Joe Walcott
18. Vitali Klitschko
19. Max Schmelling
20. Tyson Fury

PS. I'll probably get slated for having Fury in the list but he'd be at least a very hard nights work for most of the rest of the list.

[Onetimeonly]

My top 20:-
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Mike Tyson
12. James J Jeffries
13. Rocky Marciano
14. Riddick Bowe
15. Harry Wills
16. Vlad Klitschko
17. Jersey Joe Walcott
18. Vitali Klitschko
19. Max Schmelling
20. Tyson Fury

PS. I'll probably get slated for having Fury in the list but he'd be at least a very hard nights work for most of the rest of the list.

Worst thing with fury is being below vitali!

[dr_devious]

I really think Fury is top 20 but I find it difficult to know where to place him and I think he'd beat Vitali and many of the others in the list in a hypothetical match up. Other than the Vlad and two Wilder fights the rest of his record is pretty thin, his next best win is probably Dereck Chisora who I love but is Euro level / borderline world class at best. Not Fury's fault he's lived in a weak era although he has fought and beaten the best of the previous generation and the next best of his own generation. Only Joshua left really and I'd heavily fancy Fury to win that one too.

[Onetimeonly]

I really think Fury is top 20 but I find it difficult to know where to place him and I think he'd beat Vitali and many of the others in the list in a hypothetical match up. Other than the Vlad and two Wilder fights the rest of his record is pretty thin, his next best win is probably Dereck Chisora who I love but is Euro level / borderline world class at best. Not Fury's fault he's lived in a weak era although he has fought and beaten the best of the previous generation and the next best of his own generation. Only Joshua left really and I'd heavily fancy Fury to win that one too.

His record is far superior to vitals. Hard to make a case for vitali in the top 50. Chisora might be his best win!