Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Ali is too fast and his jab is better. Atg chin and smarts too...

[DrDuke]

I've never said, that Haye was faster than Jones, you are misinterpretating that comparing of Haye and Jones particularly at the heavyweight division.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't know why, but with Ali we always have to compare how he would have done when he was past his best against someone else in their prime.

He wasn't "flawless" but he was the greatest heavyweight to ever lace up the gloves in his prime.
Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have beaten Bowe. Bowe would have had trouble hitting him because Ali could move so well. On the other hand, Ali was a very accurate puncher with phenomenal hand speed who would have had very little trouble dealing Bowe's mediocre defense. If they would have fought 5 times during this period, Ali would have beaten him 5 times.

But for the period that is interesting, here we go:
Ali from say 1970-1975 vs a prime Bowe would have been much more competitive. Ali was for awhile, and occasionally was just off after that. That version of Bowe would have been able to land much more often. Bowe would have a serious chance here. The that lost to Norton for example? Would have to pick Bowe. The Ali that beat Foreman? Would have to pick Ali.

Anyone else think Bowe was #12 all time? I think I have him higher than many people and I think that is pushing it.

Now compare the opposition of Ali in 1971 and during those mouthwatering for you in every Ali thread 1964-1967s and try to guess, why Ali's "prime" was exactly in 1964-1967. Frazier alone costs everyone there. Ali has never faced an opponent of Bowe's caliber.

Ali's prime was from 1964-1967 because that is when it was. (It would have been longer if it wasn't for Vietnam.) It is pretty easy to pinpoint.
Yes he fought Joe Frazier, a great fighter. He clearly was not in his prime at the time.
Ali had had out of the ring for over 3 and half years. You don't just get that back. Simply watch his fights from 1964-1967 and compare them to when he came back. He was much faster, his reflexes were better. His stamina was better.

Ali never fought a fighter of Bowe's caliber? Seriously? Ever heard of Liston, Frazier, Foreman?

You have Bowe as the #12 heavyweight of all time. Are you seriously going to say that you don't have Joe Frazier and George Foreman in your Top 12 of all time?

[Onetimeonly]

I'll tell you one thing, bowe wasn't faster than fotc Frazier.

[DrDuke]

Now compare the opposition of Ali in 1971 and during those mouthwatering for you in every Ali thread 1964-1967s and try to guess, why Ali's "prime" was exactly in 1964-1967. Frazier alone costs everyone there. Ali has never faced an opponent of Bowe's caliber.

Ali's prime was from 1964-1967 because that is when it was. (It would have been longer if it wasn't for Vietnam.) It is pretty easy to pinpoint.
Yes he fought Joe Frazier, a great fighter. He clearly was not in his prime at the time.
Ali had had out of the ring for over 3 and half years. You don't just get that back. Simply watch his fights from 1964-1967 and compare them to when he came back. He was much faster, his reflexes were better. His stamina was better.

Ali never fought a fighter of Bowe's caliber? Seriously? Ever heard of Liston, Frazier, Foreman?

You have Bowe as the #12 heavyweight of all time. Are you seriously going to say that you don't have Joe Frazier and George Foreman in your Top 12 of all time?

I was talking about those 1964-1967 years. There Ali didn't fight any fighter, who could be matched with Bowe. Frazier and Foreman are, of course, of that caliber. I rate them higher than Bowe. And Norton too. Liston was great as well, no doubt about that. But Bowe was better, I rate Bowe higher.

[DrDuke]

I'll tell you one thing, bowe wasn't faster than fotc Frazier.

I'd say, they are about the same with this feature.

[Onetimeonly]

I'll tell you one thing, bowe wasn't faster than fotc Frazier.

I'd say, they are about the same with this feature.

You're confusing me with someone that cares what you think.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali's prime was from 1964-1967 because that is when it was. (It would have been longer if it wasn't for Vietnam.) It is pretty easy to pinpoint.
Yes he fought Joe Frazier, a great fighter. He clearly was not in his prime at the time.
Ali had had out of the ring for over 3 and half years. You don't just get that back. Simply watch his fights from 1964-1967 and compare them to when he came back. He was much faster, his reflexes were better. His stamina was better.

Ali never fought a fighter of Bowe's caliber? Seriously? Ever heard of Liston, Frazier, Foreman?

You have Bowe as the #12 heavyweight of all time. Are you seriously going to say that you don't have Joe Frazier and George Foreman in your Top 12 of all time?

I was talking about those 1964-1967 years. There Ali didn't fight any fighter, who could be matched with Bowe. Frazier and Foreman are, of course, of that caliber. I rate them higher than Bowe. And Norton too. Liston was great as well, no doubt about that. But Bowe was better, I rate Bowe higher.

I (and most people I believe) would say Liston was at least as good as Bowe. In the Top 10 lists that I have seen, Liston often in the Top 10. Most people that don't have him in their top 10, would have him just outside of it. I have never seen Bowe in a top 10. You're #12 for him is the highest I ever seen him rated.
If Liston isn't number 12, you would have to have him what 1#3, #14?
Bowe is much closer to Liston than he to Ali.

You also seem to be confusing Ali's prime to when he fought the majority of his best opponents. Overall, His competition in his prime was pretty good, later it was even better overall.

And Bowe never fought anyone as good as a prime Ali.

[TheLeprechaun]

It's a mark of how good Ali is that we don't even compare him in his prime. We have to take a slowed down 70s Ali for mythical matchups. It seems only fair to do the same with his opponents. Bowe from the Golota fight vs Ali from the Foreman fight is a fairer fight. I think we can all agree that Ali wins this. Bowe was taking a beating from Andrew in both of their fights.

[DrDuke]

I'd say, they are about the same with this feature.

You're confusing me with someone that cares what you think.

Why the hell are you replying to my comments then?

[DrDuke]

I was talking about those 1964-1967 years. There Ali didn't fight any fighter, who could be matched with Bowe. Frazier and Foreman are, of course, of that caliber. I rate them higher than Bowe. And Norton too. Liston was great as well, no doubt about that. But Bowe was better, I rate Bowe higher.

I (and most people I believe) would say Liston was at least as good as Bowe. In the Top 10 lists that I have seen, Liston often in the Top 10. Most people that don't have him in their top 10, would have him just outside of it. I have never seen Bowe in a top 10. You're #12 for him is the highest I ever seen him rated.
If Liston isn't number 12, you would have to have him what 1#3, #14?
Bowe is much closer to Liston than he to Ali.

You also seem to be confusing Ali's prime to when he fought the majority of his best opponents. Overall, His competition in his prime was pretty good, later it was even better overall.

And Bowe never fought anyone as good as a prime Ali.

Well, I put both Liston and Bowe in top-20, that thing alone can mean, that they are quite near to each other by my perception. Still Bowe is higher there. And I would say, that prime Holyfield can be compared with prime Ali.

[Onetimeonly]

You're confusing me with someone that cares what you think.

Why the hell are you replying to my comments then?

You quoted me.

[DrDuke]

Why the hell are you replying to my comments then?

You quoted me.

So what? If you really don't give a damn about something, you ignore it. Otherwise, everything is just a cheap talk.

[oogiebe]

You quoted me.

So what? If you really don't give a damn about something, you ignore it. Otherwise, everything is just a cheap talk.

Dukie - everything here is cheap talk. Get over yourself.

[DrDuke]

So what? If you really don't give a damn about something, you ignore it. Otherwise, everything is just a cheap talk.

Dukie - everything here is cheap talk. Get over yourself.

Of course, it is. But if you comment it, you're interested in it, no matter how much you deny the fact of your interest, like the troll above does.

[oogiebe]

Dukie - everything here is cheap talk. Get over yourself.

Of course, it is. But if you comment it, you're interested in it, no matter how much you deny the fact of your interest, like the troll above does.

OTO may be harsh, but he's no troll. You seem to like him when you two agree. Sounds pretty selective.

[DrDuke]

Of course, it is. But if you comment it, you're interested in it, no matter how much you deny the fact of your interest, like the troll above does.

OTO may be harsh, but he's no troll. You seem to like him when you two agree. Sounds pretty selective.

I'm always trying to be objective, so don't be surprised, when you see me agreeing with someone, with whom I've had the disagreement before. But OTO rarely puts his own opinions. majorly he comments the others' ones in a provocative fashion, so he can be classified as a troll.

[margaret thatcher]

Oog playing protector

[oogiebe]

Oog playing protector

Nah, I got to call OTO 'harsh.'

[Onetimeonly]

If I'm a troll, take your own advice and ignore me.

[Tevfik1907]

Ali by UD, good fight.

[gilgamesh]

This one would be a hell of a struggle.

It'd be razor thin in a 12 rounder, Ali would benefit greatly from it being a 15 rounder as I think his superior conditioning would allow him to take rounds 13, 14 and 15 and win more convincingly.

[AntonioMartin]

There is an ocean of difference in talent between a prime Ali and a prime Bowe.

Ali by wide UD or late KO IMO>

[elmersalsa]

There is an ocean of difference in talent between a prime Ali and a prime Bowe.

Ali by wide UD or late KO IMO>

An ocean of difference of talent between The Greatest and Big Daddy Bowe? Naaah!, I don't agree with that. Bowe is one of the most talented big men that I have seen in 40 plus years. I think that he was as good as Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes in terms of skill. Bowe Achilles' hill was that he was lazy. Maybe too lazy. But, he could fight!

[AntonioMartin]

There is an ocean of difference in talent between a prime Ali and a prime Bowe.

Ali by wide UD or late KO IMO>

An ocean of difference of talent between The Greatest and Big Daddy Bowe? Naaah!, I don't agree with that. Bowe is one of the most talented big men that I have seen in 40 plus years. I think that he was as good as Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes in terms of skill. Bowe Achilles' hill was that he was lazy. Maybe too lazy. But, he could fight!

He could fight and was an all time great..but Ali is the goat.....