Tell me how GGG's career ranks above Wilder's

[margaret thatcher]

It's a fair question that was raised, it's tough for me to see much difference, they even both got the draw --> loss thing going on vs their biggest opponents

Basically: lots of weak to avearage opponents, a couple solid to good opponents, and 1 elite level opponent they couldnt beat. Both have inflated title defense numbers. Lots of knockouts.

[DrDuke]

GGG was the king of the weak era. Wilder was cherry picking for quite a while.

[Enlightened-One]

GGG was the king of the weak era. Wilder was cherry picking for quite a while.

As far as I’m concerned, there is very little evidence of K2 ever submitting offers and initiating fight contract negotiations with the vast majority of GGG’s middleweight peers since his arrival on the world-scene during 2008 and I was also less than impressed about HBO’s efforts to market the supremely-talented Kazakh puncher.

I can’t help thinking that Tom Loeffler & HBO should have made more of an effort to initiate contract negotiations with some of these men that were active middleweights around the same time as Golovkin being world-rated:

• Andy Lee
• Anthony Mundine
• Arthur Abraham
• Daniel Geale (prime, not the shot version)
• Darren Barker
• Felix Sturm
• Jermain Taylor
• Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
• Kelly Pavlik
• Paul Williams
• Miguel Cotto
• Peter Quillin
• Sam Soliman
• Sergio Martinez
• And there are probably a few names that I've forgotten about

If Team GGG tried to make these fights by making financial offers to these guys, but failed, because they couldn’t offer them enough money to share the ring with Golovkin, then fair enough - they at least did "something".

However, I really doubt that Tom Loeffler even made the effort in the first place… since no one find any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I’m happy to be proven wrong about this.

Put it this way, people might criticise the lack of quality on Wilder’s resume (and I’m one of them), but if GGG had a decent team around him, he would have almost certainly faced better opposition than he has done.

[joshj909]

GGG was the king of the weak era. Wilder was cherry picking for quite a while.

As far as I’m concerned, there is very little evidence of K2 ever submitting offers and initiating fight contract negotiations with the vast majority of GGG’s middleweight peers since his arrival on the world-scene during 2008 and I was also less than impressed about HBO’s efforts to market the supremely-talented Kazakh puncher.

I can’t help thinking that Tom Loeffler & HBO should have made more of an effort to initiate contract negotiations with some of these men that were active middleweights around the same time as Golovkin being world-rated:

• Andy Lee
• Anthony Mundine
• Arthur Abraham
• Daniel Geale (prime, not the shot version)
• Darren Barker
• Felix Sturm
• Jermain Taylor
• Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
• Kelly Pavlik
• Paul Williams
• Miguel Cotto
• Peter Quillin
• Sam Soliman
• Sergio Martinez
• And there are probably a few names that I've forgotten about

If Team GGG tried to make these fights by making financial offers to these guys, but failed, because they couldn’t offer them enough money to share the ring with Golovkin, then fair enough - they at least did "something".

However, I really doubt that Tom Loeffler even made the effort in the first place… since no one find any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I’m happy to be proven wrong about this.

Put it this way, people might criticise the lack of quality on Wilder’s resume (and I’m one of them), but if GGG had a decent team around him, he would have almost certainly faced better opposition than he has done.

If he had a decent team and financial backing the he'd have a win over Canelo.

[Enlightened-One]

As far as I’m concerned, there is very little evidence of K2 ever submitting offers and initiating fight contract negotiations with the vast majority of GGG’s middleweight peers since his arrival on the world-scene during 2008 and I was also less than impressed about HBO’s efforts to market the supremely-talented Kazakh puncher.

I can’t help thinking that Tom Loeffler & HBO should have made more of an effort to initiate contract negotiations with some of these men that were active middleweights around the same time as Golovkin being world-rated:

• Andy Lee
• Anthony Mundine
• Arthur Abraham
• Daniel Geale (prime, not the shot version)
• Darren Barker
• Felix Sturm
• Jermain Taylor
• Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
• Kelly Pavlik
• Paul Williams
• Miguel Cotto
• Peter Quillin
• Sam Soliman
• Sergio Martinez
• And there are probably a few names that I've forgotten about

If Team GGG tried to make these fights by making financial offers to these guys, but failed, because they couldn’t offer them enough money to share the ring with Golovkin, then fair enough - they at least did "something".

However, I really doubt that Tom Loeffler even made the effort in the first place… since no one find any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I’m happy to be proven wrong about this.

Put it this way, people might criticise the lack of quality on Wilder’s resume (and I’m one of them), but if GGG had a decent team around him, he would have almost certainly faced better opposition than he has done.

If he had a decent team and financial backing the he'd have a win over Canelo.

It’s a fair point that I’ve raised though, because imagine if GGG had aligned himself with Top Rank, GBP, PBC or Matchroom rather than Universum and K2?

His resume would be better and his commercial and fiscal net worth would be far greater.

Also, GGG was mismanaged during his career, which many people aggressively criticised me for saying at the time, but now Gennadiy has become self-managed and is currently engaged in a lawsuit against his former managers.

In my mind, poor career decisions have resulted in GGG underachieving.

[Cyclops]

It's a fair question that was raised, it's tough for me to see much difference, they even both got the draw --> loss thing going on vs their biggest opponents

Basically: lots of weak to avearage opponents, a couple solid to good opponents, and 1 elite level opponent they couldnt beat. Both have inflated title defense numbers. Lots of knockouts.

GGG can actually box as well as punch, and everybody waited him out until he looked done against Jacobs.

[Ruthless-RKO]

GGG can actually box as well as punch, and everybody waited him out until he looked done against Jacobs.

Yep. Very good BOXER he is..

With his amateur background.

He's shown that he can very well box against anyone.

[Thomastearns]

GGG can actually box as well as punch, and everybody waited him out until he looked done against Jacobs.

Yep. Very good BOXER he is..

With his amateur background.

He's shown that he can very well box against anyone.

True, GGG made it the hard way up, gambling heavy against all the odds, from well outside the US boxing citadel. A more or less unblemished record places him amongst the greatest middleweights of all time. Even at 38, in the eyes of most non-partisan fans, he remains the man to beat.

Deontay Wilder on the other hand, after struggling for years to silence his many critics, has recently suffered a catastrophic loss which even his fans such as myself find it difficult to explain. And then there was his bewildering post fight reaction...

Basically GGG has little left to prove and has earned the respect of all his opponents, even that charisma-bypassed Mexican cheat.

Wider on the other hand has plenty left to prove and plenty of unfinished business. People can say what they want, but his return to the ring will be one of boxing's most eagerly anticipated events.

[gregregegg]

they have there simularitys in that they have mainly vs'd and knocked out B levle guys as champions, although i think GGG was probably more convincing over all against better guys overall but thats debatable i guess.. and then had a draw then a loss vs there toughest opponent.

I think The main difference for me is that most people think GGG is at least 1-1 vs canelo, who was prime and P4P. Even if you had fight 1 as a draw thats a draw against arguably p4p number 1. Then he lost a close ish fight against p4p 1 while GGG was arguably past prime.
and
most people think wilder is 0-2 against fury, And even if you give wilder the draw in fight 1 thats a draw against a guy that was almost certainly not the best version of fury haveing lost 100++ lbs, and recovering from being an addict since his last meaningfull fight. Then he got mauled by a better version of fury while wilder arguably still in his prime.

On results alone, those arguments mean nothing, so someone looking up records in 20 years that didnt watch the fights will likely rank them the same. but for me having watched them on tv live, i put more into how i saw it/people whos opinions i respect saw it, than what 3 judges wrote on a bit of paper.

[Cyclops]

they have there simularitys in that they have mainly vs'd and knocked out B levle guys as champions, although i think GGG was probably more convincing over all against better guys overall but thats debatable i guess.. and then had a draw then a loss vs there toughest opponent.

I think The main difference for me is that most people think GGG is at least 1-1 vs canelo, who was prime and P4P. Even if you had fight 1 as a draw thats a draw against arguably p4p number 1. Then he lost a close ish fight against p4p 1 while GGG was arguably past prime.
and
most people think wilder is 0-2 against fury, And even if you give wilder the draw in fight 1 thats a draw against a guy that was almost certainly not the best version of fury haveing lost 100++ lbs, and recovering from being an addict since his last meaningfull fight. Then he got mauled by a better version of fury while wilder arguably still in his prime.

On results alone, those arguments mean nothing, so someone looking up records in 20 years that didnt watch the fights will likely rank them the same. but for me having watched them on tv live, i put more into how i saw it/people whos opinions i respect saw it, than what 3 judges wrote on a bit of paper.

x2

Only just noticed how funny your username is

[rio]

Darren Barker ducked him. Hearn had sorted everything out, got him home advantage but Barkers team turned down the fight and ask him to get a shot vs a weaker champion.

[gilgamesh]

Well. He's beaten quite a few more guys who were ranked in the Top 10 at the time of his beating 'em for starters.

And as for them both having a draw and a loss against their biggest name opponent. Though the results may appear on paper equal. When you watch 'em, they're anything but.

The Draw in the 1st Wilder vs Fury fight, the majority of people either say Fury won or it was a fair draw. Nobody argues that Wilder should've got the nod.

The Draw in the 1st Canelo vs GGG fight is considered by most to be a robbery, and a fight that GGG clearly deserved to win.

The 2nd fight between Wilder and Fury was a straight up ass kicking for Wilder.

The 2nd fight between Canelo and GGG was highly competitive, and another close decision. That quite a few will argue that Golovkin won.

Golovkin is a hell of a lot better of a fighter, and was far more dominant in his wins over contenders than Wilder ever was. Wilder would often be losing several rounds before bailing himself out with his power. Golovkin would usually be in full control, and on his way to winning in lopsided fashion before he KO'd his opponent.



Now that I've said all that.

Tell me how GGG's career DOESN'T rank above Wilder's.

[margaret thatcher]

I do think GGG's ranks better in that he has more depth of okayish contenders on his record, I would say that Jacobs, Derev, Geale, Macklin, Murray, Lemieux, Rubio is a better list of wins than Ortiz, Stiverne, Breazeale, Washington, Scott, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Molina etc. Given those names on Wilder's record I probably should add in guys like Rosado and Proksa for GGG. GGG also didn't get pounded in the rematch with Nelo like Wilder did Fury.


That said, their careers have a lot of similarities and are way closer than a lot of people think, with one guy getting way more credit than the differences warrant. They both are still fighting and can add more to it, though their last fights didn't looks so promising on that front

anyways, just tossing it all out there homeslices

[gilgamesh]

I do think GGG's ranks better in that he has more depth of okayish contenders on his record, I would say that Jacobs, Derev, Geale, Macklin, Murray, Lemieux, Rubio is a better list of wins than Ortiz, Stiverne, Breazeale, Washington, Scott, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Molina etc. Given those names on Wilder's record I probably should add in guys like Rosado and Proksa for GGG. GGG also didn't get pounded in the rematch with Nelo like Wilder did Fury.


That said, their careers have a lot of similarities and are way closer than a lot of people think, with one guy getting way more credit than the differences warrant. They both are still fighting and can add more to it, though their last fights didn't looks so promising on that front

anyways, just tossing it all out there homeslices

Jacobs, Derev, Geale, Macklin, Murray, Lemieux and Rubio were all ranked in the Top 10. So was Proksa.

Ortiz, Stiverne and Breazeale are the only Top 10 ranked guys Wilder ever beat.

Golovkin also has Kell Brook, who was undefeated coming into that fight, and has never been the same since.

[margaret thatcher]

lolz Kell Brook bruh? Hard for me to give Geej any credit boost for that

[Cent0089]

I have GGG a bit higher than Wilder. But Wilder achieved pretty good wins too.

[gregregegg]

lolz Kell Brook bruh? Hard for me to give Geej any credit boost for that

Kell brook has had a mystery carrer. hard to know how much credit to give for that, although moving up 2 classes (but only 1 class above where he should of been) lessens the credit.

Buttt Kell brooks best win, is better than anyone wilder has ever beats best win, And his only 2 losses were vs P4P guys. so its not a nothing win.

[apollo creed]

It's a fair question that was raised, it's tough for me to see much difference, they even both got the draw --> loss thing going on vs their biggest opponents

Basically: lots of weak to avearage opponents, a couple solid to good opponents, and 1 elite level opponent they couldnt beat. Both have inflated title defense numbers. Lots of knockouts.

Nice troll baiting GGG thread margo!

[apollo creed]

Let's start:

GGG was an outstanding amateur boxer with wins over fighters like Daniel Geale, Korobov, Andy Lee, Bute, Yordanis Despaigne , Andre Direll, Nikola Sjekloća , etc. GGG has 350 amateur fights , Olympic silver medalist, World mw amateur champion, etc.

As a pro GGG had victories over top 10 world class mw's like Murray (he arguably beat Martinez), Lemieux (former IBF champion), Daniel Jacobs and Alvarez (1st match was a win for G, period!).

The truth is that Golovkin was avoided like covid19 when he was younger by the rest of the top mw fighters with the exception of Pirog.
When G was 34-35 y/o he started to become more appealing for the top fighters b/c he got older.

Wilder's career was carefully and slowly built up with lots of cannon fodder type of opponents and his best wins are ( Gerald Washington and Ortiz I fights). That's it. I remember that I saw a video where Wilder was KO'ed as an amateur by a guy named Evgenyi Romanov. Anyway but tbh Wilder is an 'overachiever' considering his lack of talent and boxing fundamentals.

[gilgamesh]

lolz Kell Brook bruh? Hard for me to give Geej any credit boost for that

Would you boost Wilder if he knocked out Usyk?

[GPTM1403]

Significant difference for me is many believed GGG deserved the win first time and maybe second time in his 2 biggest fights. He basically fought not just an opponent but a money making and sanctioning body favourite. Few genuinely thought Wilder deserved a win in the first fight and there's no comparison on second fight, Wilder got munched. He basically fought a fat rusty guy and needed 2 knockdowns to get a draw then got smashed when the opponent was fit.

Plus Golovkin is a top class boxer. Wilder isn't rubbish, punch alone can't take you to top level but he's not top level skilled.

[gregregegg]

lolz Kell Brook bruh? Hard for me to give Geej any credit boost for that

Would you boost Wilder if he knocked out Usyk?

Woahhhh there buddy. How good brook is is a tough question, and up for debate. But i dont think that even Kell Brooks mum would rate him on Usyks levle.

[gilgamesh]

Would you boost Wilder if he knocked out Usyk?

Woahhhh there buddy. How good brook is is a tough question, and up for debate. But i dont think that even Kell Brooks mum would rate him on Usyks levle.

I didn't say he was on Usyk's level, I'm just saying the size differential would be just as big if not bigger in that matchup, but you wouldn't completely write it off as a nothing victory either.

Kell Brook ain't Usyk I agree, but he was the #1 Welterweight in the world with an undefeated record at the time he moved up to fight Golovkin. That's not nothing.

[lazboy]

Woahhhh there buddy. How good brook is is a tough question, and up for debate. But i dont think that even Kell Brooks mum would rate him on Usyks levle.

I didn't say he was on Usyk's level, I'm just saying the size differential would be just as big if not bigger in that matchup, but you wouldn't completely write it off as a nothing victory either.

Kell Brook ain't Usyk I agree, but he was the #1 Welterweight in the world with an undefeated record at the time he moved up to fight Golovkin. That's not nothing.

I agree it's not nothing; furthermore, Brook was a late replacement for Eubank Jr and obviously made commercial sense.

Compare that to the Khan v Canelo situation. Canelo actively picked Khan, a blown up welterweight, with a notoriously poor chin. That situation, seemingly made commercial sense also. This is the state of boxing.

Everyone knows boxing is a business; given this, a fighters prowess, at times, is not proven and sometimes we (as fans) need to fill in the blanks.

At the end of the day, Deontay has a draw against a cherry picked Tyson Fury. Golovkin has a draw and closely contested loss to a pound for pound elite in their prime. Golovkin proved his quality after his bouts with Canelo. Wilder has proven his punching power only.

Edit: Maybe a bit harsh on ye olde Wilder but I think you can understand my point.

[Enlightened-One]

I didn't say he was on Usyk's level, I'm just saying the size differential would be just as big if not bigger in that matchup, but you wouldn't completely write it off as a nothing victory either.

Kell Brook ain't Usyk I agree, but he was the #1 Welterweight in the world with an undefeated record at the time he moved up to fight Golovkin. That's not nothing.

I agree it's not nothing; furthermore, Brook was a late replacement for Eubank Jr and obviously made commercial sense.

Compare that to the Khan v Canelo situation. Canelo actively picked Khan, a blown up welterweight, with a notoriously poor chin. That situation, seemingly made commercial sense also. This is the state of boxing.

Everyone knows boxing is a business; given this, a fighters prowess, at times, is not proven and sometimes we (as fans) need to fill in the blanks.

Canelo faced a 147lb-er at 155lbs, whereas GGG told the media he was unwilling to face Kell Brook with a 157lbs catchweight stipulation, which resulted in Gennadiy facing the 147lbs Brit at 160lbs, despite the Kazakh regularly boasting that he was capable of competing in a lower weight class (whilst refraining to make any attempt whatsoever to prove it).

For the record, Kell Brook has never scored a clear-cut decisive victory over any universally regarded top-ten world-rated fighter. Even the boxing pundits from both the Box-Nation and Sky Sports UK TV networks thought he’d deserved to lose his bout against Shawn Porter.

Also, lets not forget that GGG had previously criticised the Canelo-Khan bout, due to him believing it was simply a “business fight”, because at that moment in time, he didn’t believe in catchweights, which was a stance he doggedly maintained until Andre Ward’s name was mentioned (or until he faced Steve Rolls at 164lbs).

Whilst my comments might appear to be needlessly facetious in nature (against Golovkin), please remember that I’d previously posted videos proving these claims.

Canelo didn’t deserve any kudos for beating Amir Khan at 155lbs. And GGG doesn’t deserve to receive any credit for beating the 147lbs Kell Brook at 160lbs.

So lets not bother applying double-standards, shall we? We should never applaud bigger men when they beat much smaller foes. And that’s not me being a "hater", it’s simply common sense!