Great fighters who don't look great on film

[goose 5]

The debate about Greb's greatness on another thread has prompted this thread: Which fighters, if any, who are considered great disappointed you when you got the chance to see them on film/video ?

[margaret thatcher]

Lol, I mentioned Monzon for a thread like this and dudes got their panties twisted. But I'll say him again, I wasn't expecting a guy that slow. Mike Spinks also looked pretty goofy with his movements at times, though his hands were really sharp and at least at 175 powerful.

Foreman looks slow and sloppy a lot of the time too, one of the best cavemen there's been

[klompton]

Monzon always comes to mind. I dont think he looks good at all. Certainly not this stone cold killer. People act like he was this seek and destroy killer. He wasnt he used his height and awkward defense to make guys come to him, countered, and wore them down. He was mostly fighting euro trash and and aging fighters who had moved up in weight while ducking his top contender. I think he looks overrated and I think his resume is overrated.

[Seamus]

And guys rave about his performance against Jose Napoles who was past his best and fighting above his weight.

[klompton]

And guys rave about his performance against Jose Napoles who was past his best and fighting above his weight.

Way above his best weight. Napoles was a natural lightweight who had to move up to WW because he couldnt get a shot at the LW or JWW titles. And Monzon was a huge MW.

[AntonioMartin]

Rocky Marciano

[orbtastic]

Jimmy Wilde

[zuru]

Yes to all the above.I mentioned that I was a little puzzled about Monzons ranking just due to what I saw.Im not doubting him,just that he did not seem like a destroyer as some say.

Benny Leonard,Tony Canzoneri,Jack Johnson,come to mind.

[goose 5]

Yes, Canzoneri is my first choice, as well.

[Onetimeonly]

Yes to all the above.I mentioned that I was a little puzzled about Monzons ranking just due to what I saw.Im not doubting him,just that he did not seem like a destroyer as some say.

Benny Leonard,Tony Canzoneri,Jack Johnson,come to mind.

Leonard? Really? He's the smoothest looking by far on that old film IMO.

[zuru]

Yes to all the above.I mentioned that I was a little puzzled about Monzons ranking just due to what I saw.Im not doubting him,just that he did not seem like a destroyer as some say.

Benny Leonard,Tony Canzoneri,Jack Johnson,come to mind.

Leonard? Really? He's the smoothest looking by far on that old film IMO.

Yeah for me most of them don't look like i expected after reading about their greatness.But not a knock at all because I'm sure they're worthy it just doesn't look as impressive.

I have to add that I think Joe Louis apppears one of the best for me as he seems exceptional compared to other greats,Sugar Ray Robinson included and heads above Ali.

[Onetimeonly]

Leonard? Really? He's the smoothest looking by far on that old film IMO.

Yeah for me most of them don't look like i expected after reading about their greatness.But not a knock at all because I'm sure they're worthy it just doesn't look as impressive.

I have to add that I think Joe Louis apppears one of the best for me as he seems exceptional compared to other greats,Sugar Ray Robinson included and heads above Ali.

Totally agree about older film, that's why it was strange to see Benny. If the question was the opposite I'd bring up Leonard/tendler

[cfang]

Jack johnson doesn't look impessive and corbett and fitz less so. Armstrong is also not impressive. He seems far less spectacular than youd expect.

True about monzon but he was very effective. Dont think you can pick holes in his record, he beat all the best of his era. How a boxer looks though is kind of irrelevant when it comes to judging greatness. Quality of oppersition is the thing. Often its how good the opponent lets you look.

[zuru]

Jack johnson doesn't look impessive and corbett and fitz less so. Armstrong is also not impressive. He seems far less spectacular than youd expect.

True about monzon but he was very effective. Dont think you can pick holes in his record, he beat all the best of his era. How a boxer looks though is kind of irrelevant when it comes to judging greatness. Quality of oppersition is the thing. Often its how good the opponent lets you look.

[banjo]

Jack Johnson looks dreadful on film, his stance is proper camp as well but you can't say it didn't work for him.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

Yes, Canzoneri is my first choice, as well.

Perfect choice.

For as incredible as he was, I'm not sure anyone looked as "bad". But compare his career trajectory with a guy like Benitez, and you see the proof is in the pudding.

For me, he's easily top 10 P4P. But I fully accept he's not "clasically beautiful".

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

Jack Johnson looks dreadful on film, his stance is proper camp as well but you can't say it didn't work for him.

Yes you can.

He won his title off Tommy Burns.

He wanted no part of a fully matured Langford.

He had his hands full with a young and limited Middleweight.

Luck McCarty died before taking the belt off him.

Jess Willard clowned him.

Johnson is one of history's worst champions. Even Braddock and Neon Leon were better.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

Depending on how high you rank Langford, he definitely gets a nod.

Blocking punches with his chin, swinging wildly.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

Jack johnson doesn't look impessive and corbett and fitz less so. Armstrong is also not impressive. He seems far less spectacular than youd expect.

True about monzon but he was very effective. Dont think you can pick holes in his record, he beat all the best of his era. How a boxer looks though is kind of irrelevant when it comes to judging greatness. Quality of oppersition is the thing. Often its how good the opponent lets you look.

Clearly you've never fought. And modern Boxing is your only measuring stick.

If you try to fight real fighters the way Mayweather boxes you'll get raped. It doesn't work.

Fitz and Corbett weren't Pep or Lomachenko. But their style of Boxing was more appropriate for actual fighting. Same with Wilde. Obviously, the gloves got bigger, the need to defend against takedowns, elbows, headbutts, etc. was out-dated, fights grew shorter. But their style worked perfectly well for the world they came from.


You're kinda right about Armstrong... once he met a live opponent (Zivic) his success plummeted. He's just aski g to get KO'd by anyone with decent arsenal of uppercuts. Amazing fighter, but far from perfect.

You're slot on about Johnson.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

And guys rave about his performance against Jose Napoles who was past his best and fighting above his weight.

Way above his best weight. Napoles was a natural lightweight who had to move up to WW because he couldnt get a shot at the LW or JWW titles. And Monzon was a huge MW.

He was a favorite going into that fight, wasn't he?

I don't dispute that he was a small Welterweight, but he also really seems to have hit his stride at Ww. Even if he could have stayed at 135 or 140, would he have been as successful?

[Jaywheel]

You're slot on about Johnson.

Jack Johnson? Surfing's the source. Can change your life. Swear to god.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

I definitely don't rank Ali as high as some of the more bizarro Boxing fans out there, but he's definitely a lot better than he looks. Sure, he was an exceptional athlete and flashy, but from a technical stand point he was just OK; for everything he did great, he did something wrong.

Jones also did a lot of things wrong, but enjoyed enough success that I think we xan consider him an ATG.

Yeah for me most of them don't look like i expected after reading about their greatness.But not a knock at all because I'm sure they're worthy it just doesn't look as impressive.

I have to add that I think Joe Louis apppears one of the best for me as he seems exceptional compared to other greats,Sugar Ray Robinson included and heads above Ali.

That's interesting. From a technical perspective, yes. Louis, Liston, H. Johnson are some of the most technically sound Heavyweights from the black and white era.

But Ali didn't struggle with the type of fighters Louis did. Even though Louis could muster up the resounding finish that Ali never could, there are plenty of times where he courted disaster when (maybe) he shouldn't have.

He didn't have the size advantage Ali enjoyed. He didn't fight such rubbish opponents as Ali often did. But he still struggled.

Robinson is the Sacred Cow of Sacred Cows, but unless you're comparing him to guys like Pep, Jofre, Duran, Gomez or Lomachenko, I'm not sure how you can complain too much about him. Anyone can watch him fight and see that he's not only incredible but a living breathing monster from nightmares.

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

You're slot on about Johnson.

Jack Johnson? Surfing's the source. Can change your life. Swear to god.

You're the girl he's singing to in all his songs, aren't you?

All the other girls must be so envious!

[SwayzeWithNoShirtOn]

Monzon always comes to mind. I dont think he looks good at all. Certainly not this stone cold killer. People act like he was this seek and destroy killer. He wasnt he used his height and awkward defense to make guys come to him, countered, and wore them down. He was mostly fighting euro trash and and aging fighters who had moved up in weight while ducking his top contender. I think he looks overrated and I think his resume is overrated.

Mind naming a fighter who's ever looked better than the Griffith who Monzon fought with an injued hand?

Gil Clancy is probably Boxing's greatest trainer. And Emile Griffith (that night in particular) was probably his greatest product. Sure, Emile had his flaws. But that night was the Clancy-Griffith partnership's opus.

Monzon nearing 40, known for his long career and hazardous lifestyle outside the ring, made Valdez look pedestrian. Valdez might be one of the finest Middleweights in his own right. I certainly would not put money down against him if he were paired with almost anyone other than Monzon (e.g. Steele, Robinson, Hagler).

Sure, sometimes he is made into a type of savage that he clearly wasn't stylistically. And he never moved up in weignt, while gladly welcoming smaller to challenge him for his title. But the dude was great and a true thrill to watch. His subtlety, his adjustments, his timing, his ring generalship - all great. So much more enjoyable than the Roid Jones, Jab Judah, Macho Camacho fare that would come to pollute Boxing.

[Ambling Alp II]

I definitely don't rank Ali as high as some of the more bizarro Boxing fans out there, but he's definitely a lot better than he looks. Sure, he was an exceptional athlete and flashy, but from a technical stand point he was just OK; for everything he did great, he did something wrong.

Jones also did a lot of things wrong, but enjoyed enough success that I think we xan consider him an ATG.

Yeah for me most of them don't look like i expected after reading about their greatness.But not a knock at all because I'm sure they're worthy it just doesn't look as impressive.

I have to add that I think Joe Louis apppears one of the best for me as he seems exceptional compared to other greats,Sugar Ray Robinson included and heads above Ali.

That's interesting. From a technical perspective, yes. Louis, Liston, H. Johnson are some of the most technically sound Heavyweights from the black and white era.

But Ali didn't struggle with the type of fighters Louis did. Even though Louis could muster up the resounding finish that Ali never could, there are plenty of times where he courted disaster when (maybe) he shouldn't have.

He didn't have the size advantage Ali enjoyed. He didn't fight such rubbish opponents as Ali often did. But he still struggled.

Robinson is the Sacred Cow of Sacred Cows, but unless you're comparing him to guys like Pep, Jofre, Duran, Gomez or Lomachenko, I'm not sure how you can complain too much about him. Anyone can watch him fight and see that he's not only incredible but a living breathing monster from nightmares.

When you have Ali's talent, you use it. You don't fight textbook. Would have been stupid of him to do so.
His opponents were rubbish compared to Joe Louis? Of course Ali fought an occasional stiff (everyone does) , but he didn't have the Bum of the Month Club.