Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[Enlightened-One]

Prime Andy Ruiz Jr. beats 1963 Sonny Liston, because size matters.

I figure he'd be outboxed, and outhustled by Liston.

Are you saying Sonny Liston employed lateral movement?

It wasn’t what he was known for.

[gilgamesh]

I figure he'd be outboxed, and outhustled by Liston.

Are you saying Sonny Liston employed lateral movement?

It wasn’t what he was known for.

I'm saying he's more skilled. In better shape, has a better jab, and knows how to box better than Andy Ruiz.

Outboxing somebody doesn't always mean dancing around the ring like a young Muhammad Ali. Winky Wright sure didn't dance when he shut Felix Trinidad down for 12 rounds.

I'm not saying Liston would shut out Ruiz in similar fashion, just saying there's more than 1 way to outbox a guy.

[gilgamesh]

#2. Fury is #1.

It'd be interesting to see how he'd fare against the likes of Anthony Joshua.

With Wilder I figure he'd kick Wilder's ass, but Wilder would have the power to end it with 1 shot potentially. So it would depend on whether he got that 1 shot in.

[DrDuke]

#2. Fury is #1.

It'd be interesting to see how he'd fare against the likes of Anthony Joshua.

With Wilder I figure he'd kick Wilder's ass, but Wilder would have the power to end it with 1 shot potentially. So it would depend on whether he got that 1 shot in.

I guess, but Joshua and Wilder would be outjabbed and opened for further attacks of Liston, which would mean an end for both.

[gilgamesh]

It'd be interesting to see how he'd fare against the likes of Anthony Joshua.

With Wilder I figure he'd kick Wilder's ass, but Wilder would have the power to end it with 1 shot potentially. So it would depend on whether he got that 1 shot in.

I guess, but Joshua and Wilder would be outjabbed and opened for further attacks of Liston, which would mean an end for both.

Joshua at least has enough boxing skill in his own right that he'd be able to make a competitive bout of it. Wilder being so reliant on just straight up fight ending power I think would have hell with Liston unless he was able to land that 1 perfect shot, and he might just get beat the f*ck up and taken out before he has the chance.

I figure Liston would beat 'em both too, but I think Joshua would be a tougher style matchup for him, and with the size differential and the fact that Joshua isn't just a complete scrub when it comes to boxing skill I think it'd be interesting.

[DrDuke]

I guess, but Joshua and Wilder would be outjabbed and opened for further attacks of Liston, which would mean an end for both.

Joshua at least has enough boxing skill in his own right that he'd be able to make a competitive bout of it. Wilder being so reliant on just straight up fight ending power I think would have hell with Liston unless he was able to land that 1 perfect shot, and he might just get beat the f*ck up and taken out before he has the chance.

I figure Liston would beat 'em both too, but I think Joshua would be a tougher style matchup for him, and with the size differential and the fact that Joshua isn't just a complete scrub when it comes to boxing skill I think it'd be interesting.

Joshua would be a tougher opponent than Wilder for sure. Especially in his version of Ruiz bout #2. However, this version of him still needs to be tested, cause Ruiz' level of preparation for the rematch is disputed. So, for now I'd pick Liston over Joshua.

[Enlightened-One]

Yeah, I'm tired of the size debate.

Yeah, I’m tired about life being finite and also having to pay taxes.

It makes me weary to think there are normally 365 days per year and that most geographical regions have to undergo a period of night time every 24 hours.

And don’t get me started about rain! You think you’ve become bored of size mattering, imagine how I feel when it rains!

To make matters worse, can you believe how tiresome it is to keep reading about people’s athletic prowess declining with age! That’s boring too.

Reality can be a real bummer sometimes, eh?

[Counter-puncher]

I'm not saying Liston would shut out Ruiz in similar fashion, just saying there's more than 1 way to outbox a guy.

lol. EO doesn't recognise non-binary oppositions, as we know.

[Enlightened-One]

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age and had competed in 36 bouts.

He had lost one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

The average weight of Sonny’s opponents for the first 36 bouts of his career was 196lbs, which is much smaller than today’s cruiserweights (who all have to dehydrate in order to make weight).

Liston’s average weight during the same period was only 207lbs and he wasn’t particularly well-muscled or defined either.

Sonny’s jab was excellent, but his hand-speed, head movement, work-rate and foot work weren’t. He was a tough slugger that got the job done.

Apart from Oscar Rivas, I can’t name a single modern-day world-rated heavyweight fighter that is shorter than the 1963 version of Sonny Liston.

Even Oleksandr Usyk and Deontay Wilder outweigh Sonny Liston, with both guys being much taller than the American all-timer.

Sonny received a lot of hype during his own era, but he wasn’t particularly accomplished, other than his victories over the undersized Floyd Patterson.

He deserves his place in the IBHoF, due to his historical contribution to the sport of boxing, since his story/legend is fascinating, but unfortunately nostalgia compels many people to believe he was capable of things we never actually saw him do inside the ring.

Liston definitely loses to the majority of today’s (mathematical average) 6’4” 245lbs world-rated behemoths.

[Counter-puncher]

[Onetimeonly]

Cold hard facts.

[Enlightened-One]

Cold hard facts.

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) did Sonny Liston KO throughout the course of his entire career?

How many heavyweights (weighing between 201lbs to 215lbs) did Sonny Liston KO throughout the course of his entire career?

Is it true that the 1963 version of Sonny Liston had competed in 36 bouts, losing one of them and going the distance eleven times (against fighters typically weighing 196lbs)?

[Seamus]

Get real, Sonny would be number 1. I mean, he knocked out Cleveland Williams twice.

[Ambling Alp II]

Do the scales do the fighting?

How many knockouts does Fury have against fighters who weighed between 212 and 220?
What was his record against such opponents?

[Thomastearns]

#2. Fury is #1.

It'd be interesting to see how he'd fare against the likes of Anthony Joshua.

With Wilder I figure he'd kick Wilder's ass, but Wilder would have the power to end it with 1 shot potentially. So it would depend on whether he got that 1 shot in.

That's the entire story of Wilders career so far.
The lack of any great all time one shot champions suggests that Deontay simply must polish his not irrelevant boxing skills further for the rematch. Especially footwork. Especially footwork. Especially footwork.

Especially footwork Deontay! [Get some middleweights in for sparring]

As for Liston v the top heavies of today there's no denying that he's smaller in comparison, but 6'1 is close to the optimum height for a heavyweight as far as I'm concerned.

Let's not forget that he always seemed to be a much bigger man compressed into a shorter more stocky frame. Or also that most of his opponents spent their time in the ring running away from his phenomenal reach. Then there were the huge dynamite fists which he could use with great effect.

To compare our generation with the previous one, all we really have are the 2 fights between AJ and Klitschko, where AJ went life and death, and Fury v Klitschko where the PED fuelled Fury bobbed and weaved all night like a madman. Fury also went to great lengths to avoid a rematch with Klitschko. Great lengths indeed!

Bear in mind also the near universal derision that Wladimir Klitschko almost universally received throughout his career. He was often portrayed as one of the worst champions in boxing history. Slow, robotic, crude, weak chinned and boring among other words, and being successful entirely due to fighting in an all time weak era. Etc etc..

As for the facile bigger man theory, I thought an overweight Andy Ruiz had already put paid to that one. There's an optimum size for boxing and then there's just simply bigger.

Liston would walk through any version of Ruiz.

[Enlightened-One]

Do the scales do the fighting?

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

[Tony1244]

According to EO, all that is needed is a scale and tape measure.

His way is quite conducive to COVID-19. The fighters will never have to be in the same room.. Valuev beats just about everyone.

[Enlightened-One]

According to EO, all that is needed is a scale and tape measure.

I ask questions about inconvenient truths, which compel people like yourself to dishonestly pretend that I believe in something I’ve never once claimed.

You do this because you’re unable to answer rather simple questions honestly and accurately, because you definitely realise that your answer would undermine your own stance.

Thank you for conceding defeat.

Prove me wrong, by answering the damn questions I’ve posed!

[Tony1244]

According to EO, all that is needed is a scale and tape measure.

I ask questions about inconvenient truths, which compel people like yourself to dishonestly pretend that I believe in something I’ve never once claimed.

You do this because you’re unable to answer rather simple questions honestly and accurately, because you definitely realise that your answer would undermine your own stance.

Thank you for conceding defeat.

Prove me wrong, by answering the damn questions I’ve posed!

Liston couldn't fight what didn't exist. There were 250 and 300 LBS guys walking the Earth during his reign, but apparently none of them were good enough to get a title shot.

How did Willard do against Dempsey? Or Lou Nova against Joe Louis? Or Valuev vs Haye?

[Counter-puncher]

because size matters

[Tony1244]

Size matter, but how far are you going to take it? I've seen posters that would favor Sam Peter against Ali because he weighs more.

Is Pulev going to beat Liston because he weighs more? Compare their jabs and power.

[Enlightened-One]

Size matter, but how far are you going to take it? I've seen posters that would favor Sam Peter against Ali because he weighs more.

Is Pulev going to beat Liston because he weighs more? Compare their jabs and power.

In terms of Liston’s power, answering my questions honestly would illustrate how heavy-handed Sonny was.

[Tony1244]

Liston's best opponents must have been Gerhard Zech 226 and Chuck Wepner 228. Tale of the Tape.

[Counter-puncher]

because size matters

[Tony1244]

CP, you are getting a bit repetitive.

No, EO never said only the tape matters, that is known as hyperbole.

Rule of thumb: A good big man will beat a good smaller man. But I do get the impression that EO, and others, would favor Canera over Baer, Mathis over Frazier, and Willard over Dempsey if they had never fought and belonged to different eras.

They lost, because they were not as good. Talent trumps size on those levels.