Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[Counter-puncher]

They lost, because they were not as good. Talent trumps size on those levels.

because size matters

until it doesn't.

[Counter-puncher]

i know EO likes his latin phrases, so here's one

ceteris paribus

it means 'all other things being equal'

and unfortunately what this introduces into the equations is what's known as a 'variable element' (skill), also an 'intangible element'

and we all know EO doesn't deal well with variable elements, they're (by nature) unpredictable. and he deals even worse with intangible elements, they can't be taken in and encompassed in a spreadsheetr, he sucks at stuff like that as we all know.

so here we may have for example:

two fighters with identical physicality, size and speed and power and everything, there is no discernible tangible difference between them

how can we ever set them aside in a boxing ring? surely they will just duke it out in some kind of endless, Beckettian nightmare, round after round with nothing between them, no judge can split them and neither is good enough to knock the other one out

well, because 'all other things' are seldom (or ever) equal, the joyous news is 'yes, YES!' we can set them apart!'. they will be divided by their respective intrinsic talents and gifts, and learned skills, specific to boxing ability and separate from physicality. and thus one fighter will be superior to the other. 'ring craft', we can call it.

now, on the other hand, we may have (for example)

one fighter who is bigger than another.

you know where this is going.

everybody but EO knows where this is going.

shall we do it?

[Enlightened-One]

CP, you are getting a bit repetitive.

No, EO never said only the tape matters, that is known as hyperbole.

Rule of thumb: A good big man will beat a good smaller man. But I do get the impression that EO, and others, would favor Canera over Baer, Mathis over Frazier, and Willard over Dempsey if they had never fought and belonged to different eras.

You’ve moved away from employing strawman debating tactics to using red herring’s instead.

Please stick to the subject matter and answer the following questions:

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

[Jaywheel]

And no one cares about your stupid questions EO, that's why you're not getting any answers.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

His questions dont matter

How many hw fighters did roy jones beat before beating jon ruiz?

How many hw had james toney knocked out before stopping holyfield?

How many had holyfield beaten while at cw?

Answer the questions

[Jaywheel]

Considering Cunningham put Fury on his ass and Ruiz Koed Joshua, I revise my position and say that Liston would be number 1, not 2.

[Enlightened-One]

And no one cares about your stupid questions EO, that's why you're not getting any answers.

People that disagree with me flatly-refuse to answer my rather simple questions, because they realise any honest and accurate answers undermines their own argument.

Whenever the defenders of the indefensible run out of rational arguments, they resort to personal or ad hominem attacks, such as using juvenile language like “stupid”.

Ad hominem attacks are an important signal indicating that the attacker is admitting they’re wrong, very wrong indeed.

I will always celebrate personal attacks for what they truly are: they are compliments for me, victories for reason and admissions of defeat for you.

[Counter-puncher]

Considering Cunningham put Fury on his ass and Ruiz Koed Joshua, I revise my position and say that Liston would be number 1, not 2.

[Seamus]

And Cunningham was alot bigger and more successful than Marty Marshall.

[Enlightened-One]

His questions dont matter

How many hw fighters did roy jones beat before beating jon ruiz?

How many hw had james toney knocked out before stopping holyfield?

How many had holyfield beaten while at cw?

Answer the questions

My questions are on topic, they’re about Liston and modern day heavyweights. Yours are off-topic.

Admit it, you’re scared to answer my questions honestly and accurately because it undermines your own stance.

So you’re pleading the fifth.

I honestly believe that Sonny Liston doesn’t have a particularly impressive record against world-rated opponents that were the equivalent size of today’s big men.

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

[Tony1244]

CP, you are getting a bit repetitive.

No, EO never said only the tape matters, that is known as hyperbole.

Rule of thumb: A good big man will beat a good smaller man. But I do get the impression that EO, and others, would favor Canera over Baer, Mathis over Frazier, and Willard over Dempsey if they had never fought and belonged to different eras.

You’ve moved away from employing strawman debating tactics to using red herring’s instead.

Please stick to the subject matter and answer the following questions:

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

I am sticking to the subject. The subject is clearly the size of HWs. You don't like what I wrote because it shoots a whole thru your theory.

Your questions are irrelevant, because Zora Folley is better than Butterbean. Floyd Patterson is better than Valuev. Perhaps some of the fighters Liston beat who weighed 189, defeated bigger fighters. Whether they did or not, is irrelevant.

I do not favor Liston against Lewis or Fury because they are great bigger men. I could go on longer, but picking Ruiz over Liston tells me, my tale of the tape hyperbole regarding you is not far off.

If Ruiz is better than Liston, perhaps Happy Humphery is better than Ali.

[Enlightened-One]

You’ve moved away from employing strawman debating tactics to using red herring’s instead.

Please stick to the subject matter and answer the following questions:

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

I am sticking to the subject. The subject is clearly the size of HWs. You don't like what I wrote because it shoots a whole thru your theory.

Your questions are irrelevant, because Zora Folley is better than Butterbean. Floyd Patterson is better than Valuev. Perhaps some of the fighters Liston beat who weighed 189, defeated bigger fighters. Whether they did or not, is irrelevant.

I do not favor Liston against Lewis or Fury because they are great bigger men. I could go on longer, but picking Ruiz over Liston tells me, my tale of the tape hyperbole regarding you is not far off.

If Ruiz is better than Liston, perhaps Happy Humphery is better than Ali.

Andy Ruiz Jr., Anthony Joshua, Deontay Wilder and Dillian Whyte would almost certainly beat the 1963 iteration of Sonny Liston.

People won’t answer my questions honestly, because they’re scared... no scratch that, terrified... to provide an accurate response, because it undermines their entire argument and proves their beliefs are based purely on evangelical faith alone.

But boxing isn’t a religion.

You keep ducking and diving, but you can’t pretend to have successfully refuted my argument, when all you’ve done is avoid answering rather simple one word answer type questions.

Instead, you’ve gone off-topic by discussing things that are irrelevant to the topic of this thread, whilst also bearing absolutely no relation to any of my previous posts.

[Enlightened-One]

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

[Jaywheel]

The don't wanna go through the effort of feeding a troll like you.

[Seamus]

If Liston could move and jab a whole fight, he might well beat Ruiz, if he start's trading with Fatboy though, he's a goner.

[Counter-puncher]

The don't wanna go through the effort of feeding a troll like you.

he can't even get being repetitive right

when I'm repetitive, it's funny. I mean everyone can see the comic irony, right? you're all chuckling along there, like "oh there goes C-P with that 'repetitive for comic effect' thing again, that guy"

then there's EO who literally spews out error-message repetitiveness.

[Ambling Alp II]

Do the scales do the fighting?

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yes I think that size is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

[Tony1244]

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yes I think that size is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

For a guy who believes he is so smart, his reading comprehension seems quite poor. I made it abundantly clear a good big man will beat a good smaller man. Problem is, Ruiz isn't a good big man.

And yes, we are all absolutely "Terrified."

[Enlightened-One]

The six feet tall Floyd Patterson officially weighed 189lbs for the first Sonny Liston bout.

And here's what light heavyweights typically rehydrate to:

• Isaac Chilemba’s rehydration weight against Dmitry Bivol was 189lbs.

• Eleider Alvarez weighed 187lbs for the first Sergey Kovalev bout.

• Sergey Kovalev weighed 189lbs against Jean Pascal.

• Sergey Kovalev weighed 188lbs against Bernard Hopkins.

• Adonis Stevenson and Tony Bellew weighed 189lbs and 190lbs respectively for their bout.

• Chad Dawson and Glen Johnson weighed 191lbs and 189lbs respectively for their second bout.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age, had competed in 36 bouts, losing one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston would have been a few years older, eight inches shorter and roughly sixty pounds lighter than Tyson Fury.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston had never KO’d any world-rated heavyweight opponent that weighed 216lbs or more.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston had never defeated any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more.

The average weight of Sonny’s opponents for the first 36 bouts of his career was 196lbs, which is much smaller than today’s cruiserweights (who all have to dehydrate in order to make weight).

Liston’s average weight during the same period was only 207lbs and he wasn’t particularly well-muscled or defined either.

The average height & weight of modern-day heavyweights is in the region of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs.

SIZE REALLY DOES MATTER!

[Jaywheel]

Joan Sotkin would disagree.

[Enlightened-One]

Joan Sotkin would disagree.

He can't disagree with any of my facts, since they are what they are. No one can rewrite history.

[Tony1244]

If Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Carnera and Galento had fought in Liston's time, could they have beaten Sonny Liston?

If you think so, that tells me more than I need to know. If not, everything you wrote on this subject has been proven to be complete BS.

[Jaywheel]

Joan Sotkin would disagree.

He can't disagree with any of my facts, since they are what they are. No one can rewrite history.

He ???? So you're just gonna assume her gender like that?

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

His questions dont matter

How many hw fighters did roy jones beat before beating jon ruiz?

How many hw had james toney knocked out before stopping holyfield?

How many had holyfield beaten while at cw?

Answer the questions

My questions are on topic, they’re about Liston and modern day heavyweights. Yours are off-topic.

Admit it, you’re scared to answer my questions honestly and accurately because it undermines your own stance.

So you’re pleading the fifth.

I honestly believe that Sonny Liston doesn’t have a particularly impressive record against world-rated opponents that were the equivalent size of today’s big men.

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Answer my questions. Or you are afraid? Mine are on topic. They are refutations of your initial argument that due to size sonny has no chance. These are smaller fighters who had success.

I will take your refusal to answer as admission of defeat. I will accept your apology for being wrong. You can mail your "#1 boxrec poster" coffee mug to me as well.

[Tony1244]

Joan Sotkin would disagree.

He can't disagree with any of my facts, since they are what they are. No one can rewrite history.

Fantasizing about what Ruiz would do to Liston is hardly a fact. You take facts and then extrapolate them to guess work and fantasy.

Didn't Liston KO Ali? He must have, he was 8 LBS heavier.